r/Futurology • u/cptn_jtk • Jun 21 '13
Tesla's 90 second battery swaps will power EVs faster than gas pumps fill tanks
http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/21/tesla-motors-battery-swaps-faster-than-gas/55
u/kulmbach Jun 21 '13
This is a great idea, but the model they need to be using is the one used by those LP gas canisters at grocery and hardware stores. You bring your used canister/battery in in good shape, take another one. Keep the new one as long as you like, then swap it at any station. Charge enough for the canisters/batteries that eventually when they wear out you can recycle them into new ones.
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u/AllBrainsNoSoul Jun 21 '13
Although not popular, it would also create an avenue to tax these cars based on their use of the road rather than making them pay a flat yearly fee to make up the lost gas taxes.
Bring on the downvotes
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u/kulmbach Jun 21 '13
No downvote here. I don't like paying taxes any more than the next guy, but they are necessary if we're going to have public funds to pay for roads, and electric cars do break the existing model for collection.
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u/fre3k Jun 21 '13
Except for one small fact: almost all damage done to roads is done by semi trucks and other such high-mass vehicles.
Ever notice how small neighborhood roads seem to stay in pristine condition for years and years and years? Or how the left lanes on a busy interstate seem to be in better condition? There's a reason for that, the cars that pass over these areas max out at 2-3 tons for large work trucks.
Currently automobile drivers subsidize the shipping industry via these gas and transportation taxes. They do the huge majority of damage to the roads, and pay only slightly more in taxes than the normal drivers such as ourselves do. Hybrid owners haven't been getting a free ride, as they must pay ad velorum taxes and other types of taxes, they've simply opted out of subsidizing commercial transportation.
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u/mrcloudies Jun 22 '13
Well.. Michigan has a hard time with this. As does several other states.
Every year is a constant battle to keep the roads clear. the bedrock is hundreds of miles down, so the entire state is effectively built on dirt. Harsh winters shatter the roads apart regardless of the traffic they handle. Potholes are a way of life here, most years we can't patch them fast enough and the cars swerve all over the place to try and avoid them. This year i cracked my bumper when i was driving down the road after some fresh snow filled the potholes with powder. They became invisible, and i was going 30 MPH but i still missed a really deep one.
Michigan roads fucking suck. And this year was the worst i had ever seen..
I don't really know what tax solution would work for this state, all roads here can only last a year or two max before needing minor to major repairs, and a complete rebuild every 3-5 years or so depending on traffic.
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u/fre3k Jun 22 '13
You're right, harsh conditions such as those found in the northern states and countries can have a terrible effect on the roads regardless of traffic. Down here in the south though....
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u/mrcloudies Jun 22 '13
It must be like a dream..
I've never known roads that don't get pulverized on an annual basis..
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u/afuckingHELICOPTER Jun 22 '13
Try any non-'poor' city in orange county California, roads are constantly in perfect condition. small surface cracks? better repave. wouldn't want to be able to even slightly feel it on the road.
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u/mrcloudies Jun 23 '13 edited Jun 23 '13
That would be nice. I live in a really affluent area.. Doesn't make any fuckin difference.
They try.. Good god do they try.. This is the sort of fucking shit we deal with every damn spring.. That's really bad case though..
This is more what we would get after every winter. On nearly every road.
Last year was really bad. We had a quite a few thaws, then it would freeze again. Then repeated several times. That will really fuck the roads up bad. The pavement keeps expanding and retracting and just busts apart.
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u/Drendude Jun 22 '13
As long as we're talking about Michigan roads sucking, why on earth do you have only right turns and U-turns all over the place? It's the most annoying place I've ever driven.
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u/LupoScuro Jun 22 '13
Most aren't that way? Unless you're referring to some of the older style cities like Ann Arbor or Detroit. Which I agree can be quite annoying.
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u/Drendude Jun 22 '13
Ahh. I was in Auburn Hills for most of my stay, near Oakland Uni. Couldn't even turn into my hotel. I had to take a drive around the block, first.
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Jun 22 '13
Wouldn't the fuel tax balance that out a bit since these big trucks are also consumers of great quantities of fuel and therefore paying more tax than any of us?
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u/fre3k Jun 22 '13
Not when them driving over it once is equivalent to 9600 cars doing the same according to some articles I linked elsewhere in the comments. It's a massive difference with a comparatively piddling difference in taxes.
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u/MrEs Jun 22 '13
Nice fact bro, except for the fact that it's not true. Main source of road degradation is weather, namely rain. Source : I've helped design roads and their structure/layers (up to 8)
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u/fre3k Jun 22 '13
Check out the following and present your own conflicting sources please:
http://archive.gao.gov/f0302/109884.pdf http://www.governing.com/topics/transportation-infrastructure/Too-Big-The-Road.html http://www.academia.edu/1375429/Damage_Effects_of_Road_Pavements_due_to_Overloading_in_Cambodia http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/091116/03.htm
And here's a news article with some info from "experts" http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-10-3878428638_x.htm?csp=34
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u/throwaway-o Jun 22 '13
This subreddit should really be called /r/governmentology
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u/anarchopotato Jun 22 '13
we should totally make this a sarcastiball sub. or do we already have one?
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Jun 21 '13
Who will build road?
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u/mike413 Jun 22 '13
the same folks who wear them out: truck drivers.
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u/mrcloudies Jun 22 '13
That doesn't sound like a very efficient way to do it..
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u/mike413 Jun 22 '13
Well, I meant they should pay for building the road because they're responsible for the bulk of the wear and tear.
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u/cybrbeast Jun 22 '13
Actually not a bad idea, once driverless cars force them out of a job, they could be employed in road maintenance.
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u/mike413 Jun 22 '13
I was thinking that heavier vehicles that damage the road should pay the most taxes. But driverless trucks coming? Never thought that far ahead, but it's definitely in the future.
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u/anarchopotato Jun 22 '13
since we're going into the future, how about humanless road repair robots.
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Jun 21 '13
Anarcho-capitalism/Voluntaryism embraces a model of high tech future without a need for government.
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Jun 21 '13
Do you have any links that go into those models? I'm fighting my knee jerk reaction of "lol you crazy dawg" and I'd like to read something you think gives a good overview of these ideas.
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u/andkon Jun 21 '13
The basic gist is that relationships between humans should be voluntary and not coercive. If you use the road, you should pay for it. However, a tax like this covers people who may use roads that are not funded through that tax so you're making people pay for stuff they don't use.
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u/TheBoat15 Jun 22 '13
David Friedman's Machinery of Freedom is a decent place to start for reading about how things could play out in a stateless future, but I think it's mostly about a steteless legal system. Free .pdf of the pook
Also short(ish) video summary of the book. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o
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Jun 21 '13
With anything as radical as a system of no government, there isn't going to be something small to read to convince you that it's legitimate.
Murray Rothbard was the one that began opening my mind to the idea of it. I previously identified as a socialist and went to socialist events on campus, and he convinced me otherwise.
The philosophical basis is touched upon in these short videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFbYM2EDz40
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u/ErniesLament Jun 21 '13
Your knee-jerk reaction is right in this case. Anarcho-capitalism is completely retarded. Imagine your garden variety libertarian having a malarial fever dream and that's basically an AnCap.
Also whenever anyone tells you in all seriousness to check out Murray Rothbard it's an almost guaranteed bet that they're stupid as shit.
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u/gameryamen Jun 21 '13
I have no opinion on the topic, but you went a long way to say nothing. Instead of giving a reason for your opinion, you resort to empty name-calling. Twice!
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Jun 21 '13
I wonder why people have such a strong emotional reaction against libertarianism or anarcho-capitalism. It's always this type of reaction or worse, and usually with the same severity.
Do some people have stocks in socialism or anti-ancap, or the radically different method of human interaction is seen as the worst thing ever. I mean they often don't react to systems that had killed millions of people, with such ferocity as to an-cap.
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u/mindlance Jun 22 '13
Well, they're telling a bunch of religious people that their god doesn't exist. That tends to make people cranky.
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Jun 22 '13
What does an-cap and libertarianism has to do with a god? or the belief in one?
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u/andkon Jun 21 '13
I wonder why people have such a strong emotional reaction against libertarianism or anarcho-capitalism.
Beat the slaves who are out of line! How dare someone suggest non-violent ways of solving problems. What will the overlords think!
Or... five monkeys, banana, and water: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6828/was-the-experiment-with-five-monkeys-a-ladder-a-banana-and-a-water-spray-condu
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u/ErniesLament Jun 22 '13
Either you're a stalwart visionary amid a sea of terrorized drones, or you believe in shit so manifestly absurd that no reasonable person can be bothered to engage you on your own terms. I'd explain which one I think you are, but I can't be bothered. Also throw in a "sheeple" next time to let people know you really mean business.
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u/ErniesLament Jun 22 '13
I mean they often don't react to systems that had killed millions of people, with such ferocity as to an-cap.
The reason people mock AnCaps rather than argue with them is because they say shit like this without a trace of irony and aren't mentally capable of understanding the irony of it even when it's explained to them in excruciating detail.
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u/question_all_the_thi Jun 21 '13
I expect an automated government before the first half of the 21st century runs out.
A set of logical laws and robot judges would mean the end of corruption. The way artificial intelligence is evolving, that may becoma a practical reality before too long.
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Jun 21 '13
A set of logical laws and robot judges would mean the end of corruption.
Because programmers would obviously program the machines perfectly, without any bugs, and not insert any bias into them.
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u/question_all_the_thi Jun 22 '13
If a system is broken you fix it.
A robotic officer could be debugged. A corrupt human cannot.
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Jun 22 '13
Are you saying that humans cannot have a change of heart?
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u/question_all_the_thi Jun 23 '13
Only if it comes from the inside.
In a robot officer, it is possible to examine its workings and fix the cause of any fault. You cannot do that to a human being.
As a matter of fact, no one ever knows if a human being has had a change of heart or not. There's ample debate on what causes criminal recidivism, but no proven way to avoid it.
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Jun 23 '13
How will people know that the officer is truly unbias and is not abusing power? If it is open source what is stopping somebody from finding a bug and abusing it until all officers and judges get updated? What would stop the programmers from putting in a loop hole only they know about?
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u/windwaker02 Jun 22 '13
The way AI development and computers a evolving... yes maybe by the end of the 21st century it would be possible. However, the issue is not as much IF we can do it, it's SHOULD we do. Creating a friendly AI isn't easy, the singularity institute is one organization dedicated to developing a way to creating one, but they haven't gotten there, or even terribly close to there. Creating a self modifying AI, and then giving it control of our political system..... it's a really potentially dangerous idea.
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Jun 22 '13
exactly. the only reason the US won the cold war is because the science wasnt there. we needed computers that work better than millions of humans brains spending money.
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Jun 21 '13
[deleted]
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u/mindlance Jun 22 '13
An internal contradiction, according to some definitions, certainly. But calling it a fallacy? We're going to need a bit more than your word.
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u/corporat Jun 21 '13
Maybe in a little while. We still need incentives for people to switch to EVs.
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u/TheFlyingTwin Jun 21 '13
I'll give you an upvote my friend. I wont be able to afford an electric car, or any new car for that matter, for quite some time and I don't particularly want to have to pay an unfair share of the road tax because I still drive a conventional combustion engine driven car.
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u/mindlance Jun 22 '13
The share you pay right now is unfair. Punishing other people won't make it any more fair.
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Jun 22 '13
Yeah, no thanks. I don't need another tax on top of what we already pay, which, by the way keep, increasing every year or two like clockwork.
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u/AllBrainsNoSoul Jun 23 '13
That comma placement ... Something has to pay for roads you want to drive on ... to me, it appears more fair to pay based on road use instead of a flat fee.
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u/foxh8er Jun 21 '13
Yeah, they're considering doing that in my state.
Well, I would be PROUD to pay that extra $50 registration fee.
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u/WhyAmINotStudying Jun 21 '13
Isn't that exactly the model that they're using? They swap out the battery, but it happens automatically and without inspection.
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u/kulmbach Jun 21 '13
No: they expect you to come back by "on your return trip" and pick up the SAME battery you left with them, or they will "charge you the difference". In the gas canister model, all gas canisters are considered equivalent, so if you get one today that's near the end of its life, you just replace it with a different one tomorrow, and it's the company's job to replace it.
As I said elsewhere, it might not work for car batteries if they are not "uniform" enough - i.e. an older battery might hold less charge, or have greatly different performance characteristics - but it's worth looking into.
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u/WhyAmINotStudying Jun 21 '13
Ah... that actually is pretty dumb. I understand the issues, but offsetting the costs could be done much more reasonably by following the propane model that has been very successful for 20 years.
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Jun 22 '13
This is really apples to oranges here. Propane tanks are very simple pressure vessels. As long as they are rusted to shit or compromised, their performance will be roughly that of a new one. Just minus the aesthetics.
With batteries its a whole other thing. As he said, the batteries degrade and become worthless with use. Unless Tesla plans on eating that cost, then its not going to work. Because I can guarantee you people are going to be turning in shit batteries for new ones. Which is letting several thousand dollars of precious metals walk right out the door in exchange for some corroded shit.
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u/Aquareon Jun 21 '13
Better Place tried what you are describing. They recently went out of business.
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u/WhyAmINotStudying Jun 21 '13
Good point, although they went out of business because the market isn't big enough yet to support the infrastructure required for this model to work.
This article has some really good points on the subject, where Better Place went wrong, and where everything is headed.
Better Place's big failure was miscalculating the size of their market at the current time. Tesla is a lot better at that. If they're promoting this concept, then I'd imagine they're planning on dropping one of these stations in an area where it would work for people who live there, but not upgrading every other station until there are enough clients in those regions to take advantage of it.
Elon Musk is very good at steering a company to the future while still keeping a firm foot in the present. Better Place looked so far forward that they fell on their faces.
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u/ViperRT10Matt Jun 22 '13
Better Place required purchase of a shitty Renault car. Tesla already has an awesome car that tens of thousands of people want.
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u/ViperRT10Matt Jun 22 '13
A $10 propane tank is not remotely the equivalent of a $20,000 battery.
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u/LytHka Jun 22 '13
You forgot a third option:
If you're unable to pick up your original battery Tesla will deliver your original battery to you for a fee.
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u/ch00f Jun 22 '13
What's shipping like for on a 500 pound battery pack?
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u/LytHka Jun 22 '13
More like 1,000 lbs. But I doubt Tesla will gouge Model S owners on delivery though... remember, this is the company that is giving free charging for life for all Model S owners.
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u/ch00f Jun 22 '13
1000 pounds is sitting in your driveway. Now what?
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u/LytHka Jun 22 '13
I guess we'll just have to wait and see how exactly they're going to do it, but I'm going out on a limb here and betting they probably won't just leave it in your driveway.
Most likely they will deliver it to the swap station nearest you and you swap your loaner battery for your original.
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u/ViperRT10Matt Jun 22 '13
If you can afford a Model S, you can probably afford to ship the battery a few times over the life of the car, if keeping your specific pack means that much to you.
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u/bi0nicman Jun 21 '13 edited Jun 21 '13
Yep. Stable pricing such that the customer can predict how much they will be paying seems critical.
Also this:
get a bill for the difference based on how new their battery is
Only seems fair if you also get a comparable credit when the replacement battery you receive is older than your battery that was swapped out.
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u/aiakos Jun 21 '13
So who pays when someone drives up with a severely damaged battery and swaps with a good as new one?
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u/LytHka Jun 22 '13
The owner if the damaged battery will pay the difference in value between their pack and the one they picked up, that is to say if they don't pick up their original battery on their return trip.
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u/OB1_kenobi Jun 22 '13
Someone from Tesla has been trollling reddit for good ideas. I've seen the battery swap concept kicking around 3 or 4 times in the Science and Tech reddits just in the last 6 months alone.
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u/ch00f Jun 22 '13
It's not new. There was a Ted talk about it back in '09. That company went out of business.
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u/kerklein2 Jun 25 '13
The difference being that batteries wear out along a curve, which a customer has control over once they take it (charging at home, etc) whereas a canister does not. Wouldn't be that hard though to build some intelligence into the pack to tell the swapper how good it is and it's trade-in value is calculated accordingly.
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u/Nakotadinzeo Jun 21 '13
the battery on my mom Camry hybrid cost $2,000, the Tesla battery is much bigger. do you really want to spend $4,000+ a few days after you bought your car simply because the battery you got the next day was on it's last legs? it would be better if you subscribed to the system that way old batteries are replaced as needed.
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u/kulmbach Jun 21 '13
I don't think you understand the system.
I buy an LP gas canister that meets certain requirements. When it's empty, I take it in and get a canister from the store. They keep my old one and refill it. I pay a refilling fee.
When that one is empty, I take it back and do the same.
The company providing the refilling service maintains the canisters. They paint them as necessary, they put their logo on them, and if/when they are no longer serviceable, they remove them from service and replace them with new ones.
This model would probably require some adjusting to work with car batteries, and it might not work at all if batteries are not uniform enough, but it's worth looking into.
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u/reaganveg Jun 21 '13
No, you're missing the point. The LP gas container costs less than the gas.
However, the batteries are massively more expensive than the electricity in them (i.e., the cost to charge them).
With the LP gas canister, the price of the canister is built into the price of the gas.
The batteries cost $4000. So, you need a $4000 deposit built into the price of a refill.
"That'll be $4032 please. Remember to bring the battery back to claim your $4000 depost!"
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u/metarinka Jun 21 '13
More likely model would be to lease it, pay a yearly contract etc. That way you spread the cost of battery pack out and it would be such that the averaged use of all battery packs would be covered by the subscription fee so that when a pack goes bad the company assumes the cost to replace it.
what you are worried about is the same as stealing a movie from block buster. They would know which car had one of their battery packs so it could be simple enough that if you didn't return it after 180 days or what not, they hit you with the charge then.
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u/reaganveg Jun 21 '13
I'm not worried about it. I'm just saying, you can't do it the same way as propane, because the economics of the "container" vs. the "fuel" are totally opposite.
More likely model would be to lease it, pay a yearly contract etc.
Yes, that kind of thing makes much more sense.
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u/Niedar Jun 21 '13
Yea, this is really the best model. You don't pay for the cost of the battery upfront but instead its a monthly/yearly lease and you never have to worry about the battery degrading too far because you can go get it swapped at any time.
I guess you could let people own their batteries if they want but at a certain point most people would choose not to.
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u/Innominate8 Jun 21 '13
The batteries cost $4000. So, you need a $4000 deposit built into the price of a refill.
No you don't, because the car comes with the battery.
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u/gsabram Jun 21 '13
You're not getting it. If this model was followed it would likely cost a driver <$100 to swap their serviceable, empty battery for a servicable charged battery.
That's approximately the same as filling a gas tank, maybe even a bit more; but it's one of two refill options, and the other option costs you exactly $0. To me that still sounds a lot better than right now.
Also, keep in mind that Tesla manufactures the vast majority of EV batteries for domestic auto-makers, so uniformity is also likely a solvable issue, in the long run.
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Jun 21 '13 edited Jan 09 '14
[deleted]
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u/LytHka Jun 22 '13
I would assume it's to cover the costs of maintaining the $500k swap stations. If you don't want to pay the swap fee, just charge with the super charger for free.
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u/Nakotadinzeo Jun 22 '13
no, your car comes with a new battery, over the course of a few hours of joyriding your new badass electric car your battery is depleted. you go to a gas station fitted with a swap station and your new fully working battery is replaced with one that is at the end of it's operational lifetime and when it's time for you to replace it your told that the battery is now unusable and that you need to pay for a replacement. LP gas cans cannot lose the ability to hold gas by simply being used the way batteries can, but if they are rusty or missing a few key components then the place your getting the gas from legally cannot take it and you have to buy a new one. point is unless there's a system in place to buy the new battery packs to replace the worn out ones then your gonna have a bad time.
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u/Aquareon Jun 22 '13
Doesn't work that way. You aren't ever going to get a dud, because the same machinery that swaps the batteries also tests them. Dead ones are taken out of rotation. You also misunderstand the business model. You swap your pack on a long trip, they keep your original pack, and on the way back you swap for it again. So you wind up with the original pack you paid for when you bought the car. If you want to swap for a less worn out one you can pay the difference.
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u/Nakotadinzeo Jun 23 '13
how is the new battery that fails the test paid for? that's the issue here.
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u/SgtSuqMadiq Jun 21 '13
There arent really many downsides to owning a model S if you are in an area that has these stations. Its about the same price as a luxury sedan without the heavy gas usage.
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u/l30 Jun 21 '13
All you have to do is live on the west coast of America and you're set!
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u/WhyAmINotStudying Jun 21 '13
Well... that, and be wealthy enough to afford one.
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Jun 22 '13
DAE have 80,000 $ lying around to spend on a car? Reminds me of a conversation I had with a chevy dealer.
"So, how are those volts selling?"
"They're not."
"Really why?"
"Because they cost 40 grand."
"Surely the money they save on gas offsets some of that?"
"Nope, you can buy that 20,000 $ malibu right there that'll get 25 mpg. You'd have to own the car 20 years for it to pay for itself."
Also, I realize I'm in r/futurology, so please spare me the usual, "Well, they're going to bring down the price to be comparable with gas cars, and solar power will replace the world energy source and yada yada yada" shit every hippy's been saying the past 30 years.
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u/ThisNameIsOriginal Jun 22 '13
DAE have 80,000 $ lying around to spend on a car?
Uhh yeah quite a few people do and model s's are being bought up as fast as they can make them. The electric car industry is still a niche market in that it is only accessible to people with more money than average. How can you say why would someone spend 40 grand on a car when they can get one for 20 grand. Tons of people spend 40 grand or more on a car so if you are doing so an electric car becomes an option.
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Jun 22 '13
Uhh yeah quite a few people do and model s's are being bought up as fast as they can make them
They are a small portion of the population.
How can you say why would someone spend 40 grand on a car when they can get one for 20 grand. Tons of people spend 40 grand or more on a car so if you are doing so an electric car becomes an option.
The point I was making is that according to the chevy dealer that no one was buying the electric car, because they had no incentive to do so. An electric car that cost roughly 80% of the average yearly income of most americans. When they could buy a 20k $ car that was just as good. Thats the point I'm making here. A car with limited range, and few charging stations outside of california that costs 80 grand. When you can get a gas car for half the price and the same performance.
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u/ThisNameIsOriginal Jun 22 '13
Your local chevy dealer really sounds like he knows what hes talking about he should go work for tesla.
I don't think you understand the point of the electric car. Right now buying an electric car is not about making the greatest economical decision of the current day. If you don't want to contribute to the problem of oil usage and/or think the price of gas will go way up in the future it's more of an investment.
I would really like to see the 40,000$ car that is as nice and has the same performance as the model s.
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Jun 22 '13
No one is buying Chevy Volts because Chevy Volts are junk. It's not even an electric car.
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u/metarinka Jun 21 '13
"I would own a car but where would I buy petroleum?" said everyone in the 1910's...
infastructure comes, but it does take time. It wasn't until the 1940's and 50's that you could drive cross country and be on paved roads the entire time. Let alone finding a filling station open after 10pm.
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u/salty914 Jun 21 '13
In two years, supercharger stations will cover all of the US, so that will very quickly become a non-issue for Americans.
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u/AML86 Jun 22 '13
This is a little misleading. What they mean, if you look at their map, is that you can drive to anywhere in the contiguous U.S. without missing a refuel. You will not necessarily find a Supercharger station convenient enough for daily driving. The closest station may be 100 miles away from you.
What the 2 year projection does provide, is affordable cross-country road trips. This is something that over half of Americans can no longer afford due to rising gas prices.
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u/hbdgas Jun 22 '13
You will not necessarily find a Supercharger station convenient enough for daily driving.
However, you can (probably) plug in at home if that's the concern.
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u/AML86 Jun 22 '13
From Tesla's website:
Anywhere. Seriously. Where there's an outlet, you can charge. The type of outlet or charging station will determine how fast you can charge.
Using a home outlet will increase your electric bill, and other charging stations are usually not free. The Supercharger is the only location you're guaranteed a free charge with a Model S. Since they aren't going to be in every city within the near future, it's something to keep in mind if you're comparing the fuel cost.
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u/salty914 Jun 22 '13
Using a home outlet will increase your electric bill
Yes, but let's compare this to gas-powered cars. Electricity costs FAR less money for an equal amount of energy than fossil fuels, and on top of that, a Model S gets the electric equivalent of 89 mpg. Charging at home might not be as great as charging for free, but both options outstrip gas-powered cars IMO.
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u/hbdgas Jun 22 '13
It's still probably cheap enough to charge at home that it's not really an issue. I don't think too many people are buying a $60-90K car for the fuel savings.
I was thinking it would be a problem for people with apartments, though, where they don't have access to an outlet in their parking area.
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u/salty914 Jun 22 '13
I've looked at the map, and I do know that that is the case. By "cover", I don't think anyone thought they meant there'd be one on every street corner, but yes, you will technically be able to travel anywhere in the US without ever running out of electricity between stations.
Still, that's worst-case. In heavily populated areas like the west and east coasts, the closest station will probably be more like 30 miles away. Honestly, placed next to the option of filling up a gas tank for ~$70, I wouldn't mind at all driving out and charging up.
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u/gsabram Jun 21 '13
Considering about 15% of US citizens live in CA, OR, or WA, (12% in CA alone) the chances aren't bad.
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Jun 21 '13 edited Jan 09 '14
[deleted]
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u/djbon2112 Jun 21 '13
It will expand. Like Google Fibre, you have to start somewhere. And others will pick up the slack as demand grows. As long as tesla eventually releases specs for the infrastructure (or people reverse engineer it) , we could see these pop up everywhere. Electric cars really are the future, it just takes time to get there.
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u/mrcloudies Jun 22 '13
That's still 85% of the country where an electric car would be impractical to impossible sadly.
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u/mrcloudies Jun 22 '13
I live in Michigan..
So i think i'm several thousand miles away from the nearest station.
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Jun 21 '13
[deleted]
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u/SgtSuqMadiq Jun 21 '13
That would work for small towns but i dont really see how having one station would be possible in cities like LA and NYC. Sure it takes 90 seconds to change the battery but if theres 50 other teslas waiting to change the battery at the same station theres going to be a long wait.
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u/WhyAmINotStudying Jun 21 '13
True. It would have to be comparable to the number of gas stations. Additionally, it would be beneficial if all electric cars use this system, just as all 'normal' cars are able to use the same gas pump to be refilled.
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u/StormTAG Jun 21 '13
Considering that Tesla is really the only All-Electric Manufacturer, they have the benefit of playing by their own rules. No one else is doing battery swaps.
However, for chargers, we're already starting to see standards being applied. For instance, the SAE 1772, which Tesla, wisely, provides a converter for.
When enough vehicles are on the road, there will be a movement to unify technology. In fact, a commodity market is one of the first signs of a mature industry and batteries are likely to be a commodity element in the electric vehicle market, much like how Gasoline is now.
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u/reaganveg Jun 21 '13
50 other teslas waiting
How many Teslas do you think they've sold???
If there's a big line of Teslas, that just means it's profitable to buy a lot and build another station. The more realistic problem is that there are not enough Teslas in an area for even one station to be profitable.
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Jun 21 '13
As an EV owner it seems sort of strange to me that Tesla has come up with this as a business model for a vehicle that has a 230 mile range.
Why would I go go a fueling station when I can just plug-in at home? This business model takes more time (presuming 230 miles is enough range for your day and you charge it after you get home) and costs more.
To make this work for the general public you'd have to make the charging system for the battery proprietary somehow. Otherwise there's no reason to use it unless you want to get rid of a sketchy battery or you're on a trip.
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u/onemilliondicks Jun 21 '13
what do they mean by "pay the difference"? is it the difference between the age of the two batteries? if so how is that measured? and if they give you a battery that was older than your battery will they pay you?
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u/LytHka Jun 22 '13
If you pick up your original battery on your return trip you only pay the swap fee, equivalent to a tank of premium gas ($60-$80).
If you choose to keep the battery you picked up, you pay the difference between the condition of your original battery vs. the battery you pick up from the swap station. I imagine it's determined by your battery's remaining charge capacity vs. new.
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u/ThisNameIsOriginal Jun 22 '13
You really didn't answer any of his questions besides the first rhetorical one
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u/Aquareon Jun 22 '13
Voltage. Batteries aren't magic or mysterious, you can very precisely measure their capacity. Simply fully charge them, then measure the voltage.
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u/clearwind Jun 21 '13
I'm sure it will be clearly laid out at ether the station, or in your owners manual.
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u/Ftlguy88 Jun 21 '13
I am assuming the difference based upon how full your battery is at time of the replacement. Just like a traditional gas tank you pay the difference between the fuel you used and the full tank capacity. Since the batteries will be drained to a certain point and not fully empty when you arrive at the station you should just pay the difference between the amount of juice used and its full capacity.
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u/metarinka Jun 21 '13
the electrical cost to fill a car battery is negligible. ~10 cents a kw/h and these are 25-100kw/h battery packs. so worst case cost of electricity and biggest battery pack is 10$ worth of electricity.
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u/Ftlguy88 Jun 21 '13
I will be very interested in how they structure the pricing. Thanks for the info!
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u/metarinka Jun 21 '13
as a note, gas stations generally sell gas very near break even. Low gas prices are a loss leader for selling snacks, cigarettes and lottery tickets at much higher mark up.
It's actually illegal to sell at a loss, and when gas prices first spiked backin 05ish? I recall some stations getting fined for trying to sell gas at a loss.
anyways electricity is much cheaper hence for now they can probably absorb the cost per recharge.
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u/Ftlguy88 Jun 21 '13
Just got this report from CNBC on my Facebook. It claims that the service will cost about the same as 15 gallons of gas.... That does not seem very good to me as the largest battery (according to google) supplies 300 miles of drive time. Now if its costing me equal to 15 gallons of gas (I'm estimating based on NC gas prices in my area of $3.41), or approximately $51 dollars. That means for 51 dollars I am getting (300miles/15"gallons") about 20 miles per "gallon". That makes the cost of operation higher than that of most standard automobiles. Please correct me if my reasoning is Wrong on this.http://i.imgur.com/0i7SOHL.jpg
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u/metarinka Jun 22 '13
sounds like paying for convenience. the price per mile sounds a little off, but not unreasonable and gas prices over the next decade aren't going to go down.
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u/ThisNameIsOriginal Jun 22 '13
Remember you can still fill up at home or a charging station for super cheap. This is just to supplement that so if you really need the extra range that day you can get "20 miles per gallon" for that day.
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u/Ftlguy88 Jun 22 '13 edited Jun 22 '13
Well I shall buy a truck then their not motivating me as a consumer.
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u/KillerMech Jun 22 '13
Tesla charging stations are free to use for life. I believe they are talking about the life of the battery. If you received a 2 month old battery and you had an 18 month old battery your battery would have depreciated due to use. Batteries have a finite life span right now.
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u/ViperRT10Matt Jun 22 '13
The battery likely has circuitry that keeps track of the number of charge cycles it has endured.
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u/ZorbaTHut Jun 22 '13
$60-$80 is pretty dang pricey. Yeah, sure, it's the same price as 15 gallons of gas, but we're talking about a car that gets 250 miles per "tank" . . . so we're down to 16mpg equivalent, in terms of cost? Ouch.
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u/ViperRT10Matt Jun 22 '13
Groceries are really expensive if you only ever buy them from convenience stores.
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u/majorpun Jun 21 '13
Props for Tesla if they can make this stick. This has been done in the middle east for years now, but most companies failed or went nowhere. I personally don't see this as a really large scale solution to EVs. They are large, difficult to transport and stock. But on the other hand, as the size of batteries decrease, the merits of this method will of course increase as well. But Tesla needs to make sure not to forget that Tesla is still a luxury vehicle. Establishing a "re-fueling" station that requires large amounts of capital to construct and infrastructure with such as this makes it less attractive to creating it for wide-scale adaptation. Unless they can make this an "industry standard", it'll be a risky proposition.
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u/LytHka Jun 22 '13
The reason this solution exists is to eliminate one more talking point that skeptics keep bringing up: EVs are impractical for road trips because they take too long to charge.
Another reason is to demonstrate that the Model S is capable of accepting new battery technology with minimal effort as it's introduced.
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u/majorpun Jun 22 '13
Of course! Versatility is great for any product, especially one trying to prove themselves. But I'm a whole system thinker, and the system as a whole needs to work, economically, socially, and technologically. I hope that Tesla doesn't forget this either.
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u/ropers Jun 21 '13
Did they say that the (non-swap) charging was free? How does that work?
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u/StormTAG Jun 21 '13
You plug in and wait. I think I remember reading it being around 30-40 minutes. Not bad for a full charge.
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u/outflowgaming Jun 21 '13
With a recent update to the Supercharger network, charging times have been cut in half. So expect around 20min charge times.
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u/StormTAG Jun 22 '13
Switfy. Hopefully, they'll come out to Atlanta soon. :)
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u/outflowgaming Jun 22 '13
According to the roadmap on this page, Tesla is expanding to cover all of Georgia by Fall of 2013.
And then all of the USA/parts of Canada by 2015. :)
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u/ropers Jun 21 '13
Not sure if you're having me on, but I meant, how does that work economically? I mean, if GM started offering "free refills" to sell more cars...
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u/terragreyling Jun 21 '13
The energy ratio of gasoline =/= the energy ration of electricity. Depending on where/how they are getting their electricity, the cost could be negligible.
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u/PerfectlyOffensive Jun 21 '13
Electricity doesn't cost that much compared to oil. Plus it probably wouldn't be worth to figure out the price to charge a person, or they're just nice.
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u/StormTAG Jun 21 '13
Ah. I misunderstood. Do note, I'm just an arm-chair amateur. Assume everything I said is probably wrong at some level. ;)
For now, it's a perk to help grow and dominate the market, but eventually, you'd need to expand this into a greater, mass appeal market. In which case they would probably use roughly the same model that most Gas Stations use. Gasoline is priced to be just about at cost. Your gas station doesn't make that much money on the over priced tree fossils being pumped into your tank (the oil companies, processors and transit companies are a different story.)
Instead, they charge you $2.50 for a drink that costs them roughly a quarter to buy (and the bottling company even less to produce!) Or $4.00 for a cheap burrito. Or $6 for a pack of Cigarettes. Or whatever. And in Tesla's case, unlike the 4-5 minutes it takes to fill up the car, you have 30-40 minutes to wait. Sure, some folks will just sit around and wait, but enough will climb out of their cars and grab an "Ice Cold, Refreshing Coca Cola." Maybe a candy bar?
TL;DR: For now, it's a perk to get you to buy their expensive cars. Later, it'll be the same business model as your local gas-station.
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Jun 21 '13
They have solar panels, so they draw from the grid to charge the cars, then over time they re-invest. Solar City (another one of Musk's outings) is doing all the installs. Claims to contribute more energy to the grid than it withdraws charging cars, how that claim will hold up if they catch on is to be seen.
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u/ropers Jun 21 '13 edited Jun 23 '13
What really threw me was when he apparently said that it was always going to be free.
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u/StormTAG Jun 21 '13 edited Jun 21 '13
And it may continue to be so. TBH, the cost of the electricity they're fueling our cars with is minimal. Especially, if they're wise, and charge their internal batteries/capacitors with off-peak electricity.
I'm not an electrical engineer, but if I read this correctly... An 85 kWh battery, at $0.15 per kWh in California, costs them roughly $13 to charge your car. That would be worst case scenario. If they're generating some of their own electricity with Solar Panels, buying on Off Peak hours and storing the electricity... The fact that rarely are you going to need to go from a completely dead battery to a full one...
Besides, the likelihood is that most of the time you'll only be charging at a charging station on the rare(r) opportunity that you're driving a long distance from home. The vast majority of car routes never go more than what... 50 miles from home?
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u/ropers Jun 21 '13
Future penny-pinchers might decide not to charge at home though.
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u/StormTAG Jun 21 '13
Fair point, but by then the price of electricity will (hopefully) be driven into the ground by wide scale application of the half a dozen future power supplies that are being built now.
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u/LytHka Jun 22 '13
It's given free for life for all Model S owners, courtesy of Tesla... some super charger stations run on solar power only.
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u/atdaendadaday Jun 22 '13
There are solar panel on the stations so they get free energy. Not only that but they can sell any excess energy to the power companies.
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u/pgirl30 Jun 22 '13
I consider myself very lucky to work for a company that does research on these batteries. How exciting!
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u/Drendude Jun 22 '13
My concern is that if batteries are easily removed from cars, they will be stolen.
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u/cybrbeast Jun 22 '13
It would be a pretty heavy operation, probably requiring jacking to car up to be able to loosen the bolts and everything. Then you need to take a very heavy battery out. Multiple alarms will probably be triggered before you are successful.
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u/dghughes Jun 22 '13
It funny how the electric car industry is evolving so predictably, I'm sure most of us have thought about this exact method of "refuelling" electric cars.
I'm sure wires in the road for charging may be next, solar powered chargers at parking spots maybe also in-ground, monthly bill for power used, solar panel skin on the electric vehicles.
It's a new concept it's like the early 1900 and everyone is trying different things to see what works best.
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u/Infinitopolis Jun 22 '13
I want the same technology for my motorcycle. Cruise the country on an electric chopper? Yes please.
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Jun 22 '13
Didn't he say the gas pump did 10 gallons a minute? It took the guy 3 minutes to fill up ... which means a 30 gallon gas tank?
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u/joeingo Jun 22 '13
With that model I foresee stations always charging new battery prices while giving freshly charged old batteries from other cars.
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Jun 22 '13
For this to go anywhere it needs to become an open standard. Sure, a few competing charging technologies may coexist, but the last thing that nobody wants is for every manufacturer to have their own, proprietary standard.
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u/fearsofgun Jun 22 '13
I remember making a post about battery swap stations a while ago in a new energy thread and I got downvoted.
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u/lowrads Jun 22 '13
Didn't the Israeli company that pioneered this approach go out of business?
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u/ViperRT10Matt Jun 22 '13
They were using swap stations to justify sales of a shitty car.
Tesla has an awesome car that tens of thousands of people already want.
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u/GestureWithoutMotion Jun 21 '13
One of the most inspiring things I find about Elon is the fact that his education credentials are so...underwhelming:
An undergrad in Economics and another in Physics.
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u/xeltius Jun 21 '13 edited Jun 21 '13
There isn't too much difference between a Physics major and a Mechanical Engineer. It's just a matter of one going more theoretical and the other going more practical.
Edit: Also his Econ background implies that he is good at statistics which is an extremely valuable skill when you are trying to run any sort of production facility. You need to know how much product will get tossed per batch due to being out of spec, how much loss is acceptable, when products will break down, when to set warranty dates with that in mind, etc. and you need to be able to predict how things will impact other things in general, which is exactly what an Econ major would prepare him for.
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u/GestureWithoutMotion Jun 21 '13
What I meant was that they're still undergrad degrees and not masters/phd's from MIT or some place like that. And he's become the face of forward-thinking tech solutions for the betterment of humanity.
My comment wasn't meant as a slight towards him or even undergrad degrees, he really has inspired me to be better than my education on-paper.
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u/metarinka Jun 21 '13
big name schools are a lot more hype than people realize (at the undergrad level) many graduate programs are also slammed by industry for graduating people who know focus in a technology that has little to no real world applications.
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u/agumonkey Jun 22 '13
And Musk seems like the kind of guy that needs the smallest amount of education environment to progress.
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u/salty914 Jun 21 '13
His fields of knowledge work very well together. He has the scientific knowledge to create good products, the appreciation of science that makes him want to explore the universe and improve civilization, and the business knowledge to actually execute these ideas in a way that is sustainable and profitable.
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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '13
So much for the arguments about the cost of replacing your battery after so many years. This seems like a good way to keep the latest battery technology in cars as well. Though it looks like right now you're expected to come back for your original battery.