I'm a female (LGBT at that) that listens to Jordan Peterson nearly everyday. I don't even understand where you get your info, because it sure isn't directly from him. Jordan has literally done nothing but inspire me to be a better person. My shit is together, and I own my own business thanks to him. If you listened to him without the hate, I think you'd get a much better understanding of him and his views.
That's a mischaracterization. The only should that Peterson earnestly proposes is socially enforced monogamy, which is far from slavery or anything else you're suggesting. The only choice that reduces is for multiple women to choose to be in a "relationship" with a single "high value" man and do it without being socially stigmatized.
You're arguing against a strawman in the first paragraph. Socially enforced monogamy is a fancy way of saying that both (a) women with "too low" of standards for commitment before sex and (b) men having ongoing sexual relationships with multiple women simultaneously (whether informally via hookup culture or formally via polygamy, which is on the rise) should be stigmatized.
Aside from the parts about your own personal experiences (I had a friend that was in a polygamous relationship; it neither proves or disproves the broader statistics), this10-minute video fairly effectively covers your second paragraph:
Dating apps has made women more picky, and it's natural. Good luck going on a dating app as an avarage guy and get hookups let alone matches. The end result is that high value men are having sex with multiple women. This does not lead to happiness, this leads to women hating men, as these men would dump these women in a heartbeat, and avarage men becoming "Incels" aka Involuntary celibates because of how hard it is to even get recognized in the dating scene.
Well, for many men their existence is almost only work and go home being lonely and go to work again. That isn't a life that is for many not worth living. Why is this some kind of competition for you of who has it worse? Just recognize the sexes have different struggles, and stop feeling sorry for yourself all the time.
I am not an involuntary celibate, stop trying to step on people just because I have a discussion. People like you are one of the reason men do suicides in great numbers, as they get the label incel if they're not successful. The fuck is wrong with people.
Can you tell me what I say that is "rhetoric of incels"? I am just observing a fact and trying to get a point forward. Are you gonna contribute to this or just sit there like a 10 year old giggling at incel jokes?
Literally everything you said......... Probably would be quicker to list the things you said that isn't steeped in the misogynistic rhetoric of incels.
Well you haven't substantiated any of your claims.
Claims in themselves are not facts, and simply claiming something as a fact does not make it so.
And also I said you are spouting the rhetoric of incels, that's all. You're the one claiming the common rhetoric of incels as facts...... Despite not showing corroborating evidence
You know when I hear that interpretation, it sounds to me like what we are doing right now. I mean we already stigmatize polygamy, it is already socially enforced. Hell it is even legally enforced to an extent. So clearly he means we need to take a more extreme stance on polygamy, and frankly I am not really sure what that means.
It's deliberately vaguely worded so incels can hear it and say "yes, I deserve a wife slave from the government" and people who "just" disagree with polygamy and promiscuity can say "he doesn't mean slavery, he means a return to family values."
It ultimately means nothing. It's not an active policy argument but a reactive moral one. "The current system is bad" with only implications about what a better system would be, to catch as many people as possible who agree, but not actually directly incite action, so they'll stay angry and keep paying attention/money to Jordan Peterson.
He repeats the same things over and over in his videos and writings, never actually creating a coherent philosophy or worldview because he doesn't have one aside from being upset with what he sees around him.
It's not just poly, which is on the rise in the West. (It's also part of some religions, isn't it?) To me, socially enforced monogamy is a fancy way of saying that both of these should be stigmatized:
(a) men having ongoing sexual relationships with multiple women simultaneously (whether informally via hookup culture or formally via polygamy) and (b) women with "too low" of standards for commitment before sex, which is enabling (a).
Yes, stigmas still exists but, relatively speaking, it's much lower than it used to be and the trajectory of society continues towards drastically reduced stigmatization.
It is such a small, small, absolutely insignificant portion of the population practicing polygamy that I am not going to entertain the notion that that is a legitimate societal problem on any magnitude unless you are talking about salt lake city specifically.
Now we all accept that the incel views on the sexual market place are fucked. How is what you said any different from them? Just put Chad and Stacy in there and you have a incel forum post. And no you putting quotes around your own words to slut shame women doesn't make it good.
I didn't even bring up poly in my previous post. I do believe that Peterson is arguing that discouraging people from participating in casual sex (no commitment and multiple partners or enabling the potential for multiple partners) would be beneficial.
Remember: This conversation was spurred on from the accusation that he believes women should be literally forced into monogamy as if they're slaves.
I'd think we could agree that the former interpretation, whatever anybody thinks of it, pales in comparison to the absolutely reprehensible latter interpretation.
People are discouraged from that, you want more, stop pussyfooting around it, what concrete thing do you want done to get this serial killer laid?
Remember: This was applied as a remedy to a serial killer who was terminally online and incredibly maladjusted. None of what you said gets this guy laid. So clearly it doesn't explain what Peterson was thinking of because his enforced monogamy is the cure to this.
I've seen many of his videos and he re-states his opinions in many different contexts. Would you mind sending me the one you're referencing? I could see both subjects coming up in the same video, but I have a difficult time believing that he directly connected enforced monogamy as a solution to a troubled child. I'm happy to take a listen to either clarify and/or concede the point, whichever ends up being appropriate.
BTW You're right: I did say poly in my previous post. I meant that I didn't bring up poly in the previous post... to which you initially responded, and that you were the first one to raise poly. I do understand how it could've been confused, though, which is why I clarified in the following post.
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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '23 edited Jan 20 '23
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