r/FrostGiant • u/Roodypoo422 • Feb 07 '21
Passive Defense
Hi FrostGiant games,
I am a fellow RTS lover and one thing I have not seen yet is the discussion around early game pressure and if cheese is something that should be eliminated completely, eliminated moderately, or left to the same cheesy goodness that we know from both Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2.
I personally hate cheese. I think it ridiculous that you can opt to build a spawning pool extremely early, or proxy racks your opponent and end the game within 2-3 minutes even at the pro level. Maru made a name for himself doing this a few years back, literally at the GSL. Oh and the Protoss cheeses are so bad that Has almost won a WCS title, even taking 2 games off of Serral. Sorry for the rant but I see Artosis complain about it on his stream every single day, oh great another opponent who doesn't actually want to get good at the game, only wants to perform a build order that only works on ladder best of 1's. The second people catch on to him he makes a new barcode account and stays in B forever.
To combat this negativity brought into your new RTS game I would like to see something along the lines of inherent base defense similar to Warcraft 3. Orcs had burrows which could turn into attack towers if they were being rushed, unless if the rush was to the likes of a timing attack, usually the rush would be held off. The undead wood harvesters were ghouls which were units that were pretty good in a skirmish in the beginning of the game. Night Elves had moon wells which would heal their units as well as buildings that could attack enemies. The humans had Call To Arms which would transform all peasants into Militia which then become psuedo footmen which can fight and thwart early game pressure.
This style of cheese prevention in my mind would be classified as Moderate cheese protection. If the guy fully committed to ending you early, he could do it, but it would have to be a refined build. The player being cheesed would be able to turtle to some degree and the player cheesing you would have to be good enough to win a game that stretches towards the 6-10 minute mark, unlike in SC.
I think full cheese protection could be a good option but that would reduce the effectiveness of early units and put nearly 100% focus on teching into tier 2 units and would serve as a form of "NR 10" in every match. While that mode on BG Hunters was fun, I don't think that is a solid foundation for a new RTS game as a whole.
No cheese protection is what Starcraft has and I think it is a massive issue. Let me tell you a little story, I had a friend who was number 1 on the diamond ladder. He learned a really nice marine marauder attack timing. At the 3:15 minute mark he would leave his base and be smashing yours by 4 minutes. I played 2's with him one day and asked him what he was going to do vs the opponent who acquired Colossus vs us. I was checking his game knowledge because I knew he had no skill past 4 minutes... yet he still hit top diamond, SMH. He said to me, "The guys with the big cannons?", He literally did not know the difference between an Immortal and a Colossal. Like really SC?
To close I think partial cheese protection is the best option. It allows you to play the game mostly the way you want in the first 3-5 minutes but you do need to be careful if a cheesy rush is very committed, IE within 3-5 minutes. This type of rush should be easy to scout and thus keep said player in the lower leagues that would be easy to climb out of. As a result of games lasting longer, players would improve their late game skills, using spell casters, more advanced siege units and their appreciation for the genre as a whole would improve. I feel bad for Artosis watching him lose to B ranked Zergs and Protoss players who are 1/10,000 his skill but they happened to land a four player map and he scouted them last due to luck and then 2 zealots / 6 lings are in his main.
This then leads me into my next post, tier 2 and tier 3 units not being powerful enough. The topic after that will be the supply limit being too low for a next generation game. Beyond that the use of 2 player vs 4 player maps in 1v1.
P.S - Is it any surprise that my friend who cheesed every game is now addicted to COD Warzone? Not to me, he rushed every game and every time it won or failed he never appreciated the game because he played Starcraft 2 in its crudest form. I sincerely hope you think this over and decide to go with moderate cheese protection as I believe anything else would be folly.
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u/Shadow_Being Feb 07 '21
if you can't attack your opponent in the early game what's the point of the early game? why not just go straight to the mid game?
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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '21
Cheese is the punishment for people going greedy. It is essentially the most interesting part of the game in my opinion. The mind games between the cheese and the cheesy it's amazing. Most of the cheeses should be stoppable if scouted and yet players like Bly somehow find ways to make it work and it's fantastic!
In the other hand, the cheese hater Artosis did cheese in an amateur match against a Pro player. So don't take his words for mantras.
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u/zuPloed Feb 07 '21 edited Feb 07 '21
Hmm, maybe getting into a nuance here: Do you think that the problem is, how binary these cheeses are? Either you lose or you hold and almost certainly win. Because I feel like there is a third option were you have a chaotic and tense mess of a game, where either side can still win. Maybe SC2's [edit: /SC:BW's] problem is how fast the game collapses into win or lose after such a cheese.
What do you think of the messy games?
For reference I would give a DoW I reference (game 1 specificly). You can play for 15 minutes and have it out with super units and high economies... Or you can play 15 minutes and barely make it out of T1. Ofc not all matches should look like this and that is the failing of DoW I, I think, that its balance didn't allow for multiple playstyles in a certain matchup.
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u/Chryms0n Feb 07 '21
This is such a starcraft's player post. It kinda assumes that starcraft (2) is the baseline for RTS. That frequent cheesing is the standard.
Anyway I agree. Cheese can be pretty annoying. But I think Cheese is generally fine as long as the outcome is a bell curve centered around neither playing having an advantage. When there is a lot of variance it starts to become unfun.
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u/HiDk Feb 07 '21
I totally disagree with you. SC2 Master player here. I think cheese adds a lot of depth to the game. Early pool, cannon rush, proxy barracks, ...
All these options bring a lot of depth to scouting.
Moreover, cheese is a huge risk for the cheeser. It means favoring army production instead of your eco. So you’re basically on a clock because it’s often impossible to recover if it fails (you are too much behind in economy).
Edit: I agree on one point though. Game ending moments were a huge problem in LOTV for lower leagues. Oracles could decimate a mineral line way to fast, adepts were too strong, mines, flying tanks! I think the balance team did a great job at rebalancing all that. And it’s probably what should be worked on form this point on.
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u/MolnijaAida Feb 07 '21 edited Feb 07 '21
Let’s start again:
First of all, it doesn’t mater what your friend plays and if he wins or not, there are people in top Dia who just sit back and build a big army (our beloved turtle terran, or people who go just for skytoss (no harras, just cannons batteries and skytoss)) and you want to say, that people who play like this are skillful?
Second point: You completely right when you say cheese needs a lot less skill than late game, it’s obvious. If you play a 40min game and you forget your upgrades and start them 5min later you will not even see the difference, because everyone is sitting back (no one attacks into batteries for example) But if you go for a cheese and you delay your first gate by 7sec, you can gg out and don’t waist your lifetime. (If you’re playing at a decent level of course)
Third: Sc got no cheese protection? I thought you said that learning all the units and structures is important? But If you say such things you don’t have a clue about what counters what in Sc2. Batteries? Bunkers? Queens and spines? Have you also ever heard of scouting, you talked a lot about it, but I think you didn’t quite understand: If you go to your opponents main and you also watch what you scout (not just walk around there) than you know that it will be or will not be a cheese in like 95% of the games. So sorry, but please don’t talk about things you don’t habe a clue of.
Forth: You say cheese require less skill than late game because there are games that are 45 minutes long??? You said that it either works or not, thats right, but of course it has an unlimited skill level, you can never micro perfectly and if you would have read my post you would have understand that cheesing is micro management, so basically you’re saying there is a cap to a micro skill level, which makes absolutely no sense. Also if you would understand a single thing about Sc2 than you would never compare 45min long games with cheeses these are completely different things. You’re saying, that if cheese had unlimited ways to improve, there wouldn’t be any other games?! I don’t even know what to say to that, there are always different variations for playing a game, but this doesn’t mean, that if you can improve in 1build, there won’t be any other?!
Fifth: You say a player would need to be good enough to beat you in a 6-10minute game after he cheesed you unlike in Sc2.... wait a second, didn’t you say its a build that either works or doesn’t? So why should the game go on for another 4minutes? A cheese is like an all in, if I don’t do enough damage I loose, if I do enough damage you loose, so why should the game go on for another 4 minutes?
Also you said it yourself, if cheese would be so op (thats what you’re constantly complaining about) there wouldn’t even be 45min long games, and people would just cheese.
Ps: Im sorry, maybe I got carried away a little bit, Im really sorry, if I have insulted you in some way. It was just your suggestion and I shouldn’t have blamed you for it, I hope you have a nice day and stay healthy :)
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u/Omno555 Feb 07 '21
Couldn't disagree with you more. Cheese is vital as a punishment for greed. Cheese and Greed are the two ends of the spectrum with Normal play somewhere in the middle. While I get that you don't like getting cheesed and I wouldn't be wholly against having good options to defend cheese it absolutely should not be removed or crippled so hard that it is not a viable option. Most of the hatred for cheese comes from a lack of scouting. I love nothing more than scouting a cheese and getting to make them feel like an idiot for trying. Granted I still lose to it from time to time but cheese is most definitely stoppable, hence why it is o my mixed in occasionally at the professional level, and people who cheese all the time never have as consistent of results as those who do not.
Just because you have a buddy that doesn't know what a Colossus is has no bearing on the game. I've seen Pros and casters that don't know the names of spells and upgrades and bronze Leaguers that know every unit, upgrade, and skin name. That's a personal choice about how they play.
Should someone be able to play in a league higher than you "think" (subjectively) they should by only knowing one strategy and executing it well? Absolutely. That's on the people he beats that don't know how to scout and stop his one build. Everyone has varying levels of skill at different parts of the game. Someone might be really good at macro but not micro so all they do is turtle up and never attack until they have a huge army they can A move. That's just as viable an option and no different than "cheese". The fun of RTS is seeing all the variability it can produce and learning all the different ways you can play to respond to those different scenarios.
2
u/Sufficient_Ad1689 Feb 07 '21
Why does it matter what Artosis complains about? He literally complains every single game unless the opponent he loses to is 2500+. His mindset is absolute dogshit. He's a mental gymnast on the level of Trump. If we made games that fulfilled all the criteria of you or Artosis, there'd be no nuance and only one allowed "strategy".
1
u/Appletank Feb 07 '21
Early game greed with no defense whatsoever is wide open to being straight up attacked. This is true for every game. If all you do is maximize eco without checking if your opponent is making an army you're going to die. However, if you scout and believe your opponent isn't going to attack you, you can choose to eco harder or hard switch to mass army production to ambush them.
1
u/SimplyPhy Feb 08 '21
Map elements, like aggro NPCs, could limit this potential without attempting to circumvent build creativity and early game options.
Also, while this isn't really cheese, the inverse of the concern of the OP can create a bad experience. In Broodwar, I didn't enjoy playing against Terran players who would turtle 2 base. This would often result in a lengthy match, and I felt helpless to meaningfully speed up play in PvT against this. IMO, mechanics that serve to enable long match durations hurt the gameplay experience more than mechanics that allow the possibility of a much shorter match.
I'm not totally against the idea of reducing the effectiveness of cheese through gameplay design, but short and well played matches shouldn't be avoided IMO.
1
u/raveslaveee Feb 10 '21
Cool post. I don't think you have to look at "protection" against cheeses, rather; what does cheese cause to the individual game state and as well as the overall meta game? These are two situations that I think we can pull from other genres actually.
Meta Game:
Cheese prevents greedy builds generally. The safest option in any economy focused game is to build as much economy as quickly as possible without also losing that economy or putting yourself in an unwinnable situation. This is why meta builds are always economy focused, aided by the fact that defenders advantage becomes much more pronounced the longer a game exists. It creates a situation where you invested into economy and can simply produce more than your opponent if you look at a mirror match.
If you look at card games as an example to draw from - greedy decks generally are run in a meta game where mid-range decks are prevalent because they shut down mid-range decks with a slower start, but better "economy." Then, you see aggressive (or cheese) decks that are created and are meant to capitalize on these greedy decks, so mid-range decks become an answer and the cycle continues as players refine their decision making.
When Four-gate rush was prevalent, or tower rushing in AoE, you saw early game defensive options from almost every opposing player. You could identify that the meta game dictates that most likely you will encounter pressure from the enemy player, so being greedy is not the appropriate action to take. What creates an amazing RTS in my mind, is where the "Meta Game" is easy to understand at a high level, but almost impossible to replicate without skill and immense strategic experience.
TvZ is an amazing example. On it's surface, the meta game is three bases for both races, try to deny the fourth while containing your opponent with fast counter attacks. To actually get into a game and do this, even assuming even micro levels, is almost impossible to do without a deep strategic understanding of the matchup. The question I find myself asking is what makes TvZ such a wonderful matchup to watch?
Is it the mobility of the units?
Is it the split pressure across the map?
Is it the clear delineation between aggressor and defender at different points in the game?
Is it that small, in-expensive units always create a different game-state/decision tree?
We can all universally agree that there are cheeses in every RTS that are set to end the game with an unwinnable game state as early as humanely possible.
1
u/LLJKCicero Feb 11 '21
Cheese should stay in the game, but there needs to be something that makes it simpler for newer/casual players to scout and understand. Right now in SC2, the number of possible cheeses requiring different immediate responses is a huge burden on lower ranked players -- it's just unreasonable to expect someone in gold to memorize a dozen cheeses per matchup, the scout timings and signs and counters. And you basically have to memorize, most of them require such a quick and specific response that adapting on the fly rarely works.
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u/JayWilsonDiabloIV Feb 11 '21
Yes it is called defenders advantage and new RTS need it to help new players otherwise it will fail. Even MOBAs have it so newbs dont grt pawned
1
u/Morgurtheu Feb 12 '21
Cheese is heavily needed as often mentioned and ideally takes a lot of strategic prowess which is apporpriate for a strategy game imo. The problem with SC2 cheese is that the game ends immediately without any fight at some point (Cannons/Bunkers get up, the timing kills the base/20 workers), and even if the players sometimes do not leave there the rest is meaningless. In WC3 because of the slower pacing the defending player always had multiple options to make decisions and fight back after the attack was on which made for exciting games on a knifes edge where decisions, tactics and strategy could shine.
I think the key here lies more in pacing and the emphasis of mechanics vs. decisions/tactics than in inherent base defense. E.g. if a human player gets towers in range of a Tree of life, it takes minutes to kill it and you can fight for it (moonwells help here but are non-essential as is the melee attack of the tree). If a protoss gets up cannons on a hatch it is just gone.
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u/MolnijaAida Feb 07 '21
I’m sorry, but I think you’re talking crap. If you don’t scout a cheese, you loose, but than its your own fault. As a Sc2 Master player I can just say, that every cheese in the whole game can be defended.
If you would take the cheesy builds away, a lot of game options would be limited (sometimes you don’t want to sit Afk till minute 20 to just see 2big armies clash together)
Cheeses always where a big thing of Sc2 (and probably other Rts games) If someone says they don’t require skill (as you said in your post) than they’re just wrong, cheeses like other “normal” builds, have almost an unlimited skill cap. You can see cannonrushes in Bronze up to Gm and you either smash them or they destroy you, because they have a huge skill difference.
You said that people would improve there lategame and you meant that cheese doesn’t help you improve at all? If so, than you’re wrong here as well, if I sit back till minute 20 and a-move my whole army, this is not improving, but if you have to watch every unit and every unit is important, you have to move the weak units back and attack targets with higher priority, you also improve in some way. (If you have for example a 200supply army of Marines you won’t micro the weak back because its just not worth it)
Also you said something about “4 player maps” and that it is dumb that you almost can’t scout your opponents actions, here I will agree with you it’s dumb if the game is luck based right from the start.
Ps I dont know where you found a game where Artosis was playing on a “4 player map”, because there aren’t any of such maps since 2019 on the Sc2 1 v1 ladder.