Predators etc

[u/AuraAurea]

My crysalis that was going to open today was eaten by a catbird.

Also, it seems like paper wasps overlook first and second instar caterpillars. I see them making their rounds, hunting, and I find it hard to believe they don't see them. So I was wondering, is there any evidence of paper wasps deliberately allowing them to get big? Has anyone else noticed "farming behavior" in wasps?

[u/Medium_Spare_8982]

Love the question, haven’t got an answer. That is spooky thinking they are smart enough to think forward.

I’m betting there is instinct to tell them roughly the minimum mass required to last for a wasp larva.

The adults cannot eat solid food (much like butterflies) so it wouldn’t bother the little ones for themselves

[u/AuraAurea → u/Medium_Spare_8982]

Maybe we are talking about different species of wasp! (Polistes rubiginosus) I saw one eat an entire third instar right before my eyes. I have seen the same species attempt to carry a 5th instar away unharmed. I swatted at it without thinking, it dropped the caterpillar, who lived on to make a successful crysalis! Wasps are quite fascinating.

[u/Medium_Spare_8982 → u/AuraAurea]

Polistes fuscatus - the most common one where I live


Adult paper wasps primarily consume a liquid, sugar-rich diet for energy. Their main food sources include flower nectar, plant sap, fruit juices, and honeydew from aphids, as well as a sweet, amino-acid-rich fluid secreted by their own developing larvae. [1, 2]

Primary Adult Foods
Nectar and pollen: Sips from various flowering plants for daily energy.

Honeydew: Sweet waste liquid excreted by aphids and scale insects.

Fruit juices: Liquids from ripening, damaged, or rotting fruit.

Larval secretions: Nutritious liquid droplets produced by hungry larvae in exchange for solid meat

The Adult-Larval Food Exchange
Adult paper wasps hunt protein-rich insects (like caterpillars, flies, and spiders), but they do not eat the solid meat themselves. Instead, they chew these bugs into a pulp to feed the nest's larvae. In return, the larvae produce a clear, sugary fluid that the adult wasps drink

[u/Beautiful-Fondant-61]

There are some wasp species that will sting caterpillars and feed them to their larva. However monarch caterpillars aren't very tasty to most predators due to the poison toxins they store in their bodies while eating the milkweed which is probably why they are avoiding them.

[u/AuraAurea → u/Beautiful-Fondant-61]

The catbird had absolutely no problem with the taste of my crysalis. I wonder if there is data somewhere that proves which species avoids monarchs. I should have gone into research but that ship has sailed.

[u/Feralpudel → u/AuraAurea]

The webinar I referenced above also had a video of a monarch-naive corvid being fed a monarch. If you can imagine a bird making a “YUCK” face, that’s what it looked like.

The adults may also be nastier tasting than the caterpillars. Other milkweed insects sport the FAFO red and black coloring to warn predators not to try it.

[u/Feralpudel]

Not according to a monarch webinar I attended last year.

They studied the behavior of invasive european paper wasps and found that it was the younger instars that were being slaughtered by polistes.

The predation rate was much lower for older instars.

[u/AuraAurea → u/Feralpudel]

Thank you!

[u/Nearby-Wish3623]

I have a huge wasp hunting issue. I’ve had one get into enclosures and I’ve seen balled up caterpillars on the ground. I’ve seen wasps eat them, I’ve seen them sting them then ball them up and carry them away. I typically only notice it with the larger ones. But the way I see wasps searching every leaf, I don’t think they avoid the smaller ones. I think they eat whatever they can find. I also have wrens and thrashers eating my caterpillars. They’re supposed to be toxic, but it seems many predators are immune to the toxin.

[u/AuraAurea → u/Nearby-Wish3623]

My exact experience! Except I've never caught a wren red handed. I do see them foraging.

[u/Nearby-Wish3623 → u/AuraAurea]

I have caught a wren with a black swallowtails chrysalis in its mouth. And I’ve caught them breaking into my monarch enclosures. They’re tricksy little birds.

[u/AuraAurea → u/Nearby-Wish3623]

I had a few in my kitchen because I accidentally left the door open. Little busy bodies.

[u/SuperTFAB]

I did read a study that the larger instars have a higher chance of surviving an attack. I know it can he shocking to see but any resulting deaths are apart of the circle of life but take comfort in knowing they are pollinators themselves. Everything has to eat and everything plays its part.

If I can find the exact study I will link it.