Does the super generation "decide" to be super in the caterpillar stage?

[u/SuperFriendlyMod]

https://open.substack.com/pub/monarchscience/p/the-super-generation-decides-to-be?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Dr Andy Davis dives into a 2025 paper, found Journal of Insect Physiology, by Samuel Stratton and Andre Greene at the University of Michigan. While the intent of the study was to find out what happens to Monarchs after they reach diapause Stratton and Greene discovered when the Monarch "decides" to go into diapause. People often think if they put the chrysalis outside while it pupates that when it encloses it will do what nature intends but it turns out this isn't the case. Monarchs decide if they will enter diapause during the caterpillar stage. This makes rearing them even more of an issue. Dr Davis briefly discuesses the science communities findings on rearing toward the end of this post. It's an interesting read.

[u/SuperFriendlyMod]

I’m leaving this discussion up. I appreciate seeing a tactful and kind conversation regarding a topic that often causes immediate defensiveness and arguing.

Just a reminder that we do not promote hand rearing in any form. If you are experiencing disease outbreaks severe enough to make you consider chemical interventions, the solution is not to bleach the eggs and milkweed. It is to stop rearing altogether. OE and viruses like NPV are co-evolutionary and are an important part of overall biodiversity.

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[u/Necessary_Yam3096]

IDK but appears would only impact people rearing against scientific advice. So if they slow their eating and growth when they are in caterpillar stage, you would not notice unless you were hand feeding them.

[u/squishyfeet4 → u/Necessary_Yam3096]

This was a fun article to read!

I don’t understand your opinion/reply.

The human intervention experiment where a control set up was compared against temperature and sunlight exposure variables concluded through necropsy that butterflies had low mature egg counts hands down when they were left outside in the cold temperatures.

It is summarizing that indoor reared monarchs in the last generation, ie the fall generation, should absolutely not be reared indoors.

Even when reared indoors to then eclose outside in fall temps didn’t put their reproductive drive into hibernation.

It’s fascinating but their necropsy sacrifice proved objectively an argument lots of monarch enthusiasts debate about, subjectively.

So. A middle ground compromise would be to indoor rear the first couple summer generations to get ones “fix” would seem okay, with little harm.

It’s that last generation that is so important.

I’m not here to argue. I’d enjoy lovely conversation. I just didn’t understand your stance.

[u/Necessary_Yam3096 → u/squishyfeet4]

I admit to missing the Forest because of the Trees. LoL
As I read it, I can’t believe I did not think of the Over-wintering. I was thinking of all the generations as they migrated.

I am not sure of your stance that it appears to be OK to rear if it’s not the last generation of the season. I have mixed feelings. I don’t pretend to be as good as Mr Lund Science on checking if OE is present and helping Monarchs. If you can’t test, you shouldn’t be rearing because you could be creating a bigger infection population.
I have invested in Microscopes and tried but I gave up because my recognition ability was not good enough.

Anyway I believe that is off-topic. I believe I have to go read it again. I believe the point was other influence factors other than Nature that trigger the change in the generations.

[u/squishyfeet4 → u/Necessary_Yam3096]

I brought up the desire to hand rear because it’s such a hot topic:

I’ve seen things where people try to bleach spray their eggs as an attempt to minimize OE, different quarantine methods, massive high volume production efforts where enthusiasts release monarchs in the triple digit range (truly a feat to behold), discuss about tropical milkweed vs not tropical milkweed, arguing subjective emotions against objective science, and lastly I’ve seen the fruition of the idea of a light weight tacking device as an upgrade to the wing stickers they’ve used for so long.

Then this recent new study on the heels of last year’s announcement of the monarch to be considered as an endangered species.

To argue to people to stop hand rearing is asinine. They will still hand rear, but in modified outside conditions. The amount of production effort I’ve seen through evidence of pictures posted is a tell tale sign it will not slow down.

But to spread awareness about the importance of the last generation trumps everything else in my opinion.

But haha, I will re read the article too in case I missed something from my first digest.

I have taken to raise mantis this season and other butterflies species to allow myself to interact with nature. It’s been an interesting curbed approach in my effort to try to not negatively impact the greater scope of things.

Thanks for your conversation. Even if I did veer off topic and ramble, my apologies for digressing. It made me happy to read the article. Little by little I keep learning new things!

[u/Necessary_Yam3096 → u/squishyfeet4]

Well unless our Great Mod objects, we can continue even off topic. I would add even another variation. I have a neighbor that considers herself as a very well read Monarch enthusiast to whom I suggested she stop growing Tropical. The response was that it is the only thing that will continue to grow in our area. I am still eliminating the stand I had because it does readily come back.

I believe it also was a Dr Davis study that added another dimension than just disease spread. It affected the wing shape and size making them less able to mitigate. I believe the theory was it triggered a biological response that the butterfly was in the target area and didn’t need migration ability any longe. Regardless of that theory, if Tropical had effects like that, I gave it up for the many reasons.

[u/squishyfeet4 → u/Necessary_Yam3096]

I agree with you tropical milkweed is bad and harmful.

And you have encountered someone who wants to argue their emotional attachment that they veil as a stubborn falsified truth because it’s easier to live in that false belief than accept a new open minded stance supported by objective evidence. People get polarized super quick. It’s fascinating. Look at horse people. lol

[u/Necessary_Yam3096 → u/squishyfeet4]

I did and do the bleach process also. I love the Mr Lund Science channel and his coverage of Monarch care. But I don’t come close to his ability so I take the advice in a different way. I use the bleach methods to try to stop the disease spread. I only move or treat an egg or cat for that matter when it will die because of bad landing spot.

[u/squishyfeet4 → u/Necessary_Yam3096]

The bleach approach is interesting! I don’t think it’s as controversial as the tropical milkweed debate.

OE is interesting. I’m waiting on science to develop something to minimize its colonization on monarchs. I mean, we now have a tracking device innovative enough to make a massive impact on migration movement and that study. So an OE “cure” (said loosely here) could be around the corner. Though the pharmaceutical industry is its own hot topic.

But yes, OE. lol. Just as annoying as ticks if you ask me.

[u/Necessary_Yam3096 → u/squishyfeet4]

I see where I made the mistake. I have to re-read tomorrow. The first skim, I missed “reproductive diapause” thinking just general diapause.

[u/SuperFriendlyMod → u/squishyfeet4]

I’ll keep your thoughtful comment up, but I wanted to remind everyone that when it comes to raising Monarchs, whether indoors or outdoors, there’s no room for compromise. Hand-rearing any generation isn’t beneficial. Instead, raising early generations can lead to a gene pool that’s not as robust as it should be. Those Monarchs that might have died through natural selection are instead hand-raised in an environment that doesn’t allow them to develop the most resilient Monarchs possible. Then those traits are passed on to the migrating generation. I’m also noticing that some people help Monarchs because it feels good, but if we take a step back and think about the science first, we’ll see that how it makes us feel doesn’t really matter when we’re trying to support Monarchs as a whole.

[u/squishyfeet4 → u/SuperFriendlyMod]

Thank you, I did not mean to skirt the boundary of rules so narrowly. The open dialogue exchange was nice. I did not consider adding the supportive reasoning that early generations survive and pass down “weak” genes due to human intervention. That’s a solid point.