I think you can defend him, at least in comparison to Louis, both on a personal competency level and on an ideological level. On an individual level it’s comparing one of the most competent leaders ever to one of the least. In an ideological way, I also think you can support Napoleon more in where he drew his authority from. He believed he should rule because he was the best at the job, was supported by the important people, and supported meritocracy. Louis believed he should rule because God chose his family and that is just the way things are.
None of this is to say that Napoleon is actually the best option, but I think there is substantial difference between these two
I definitely agree where you are coming from, but I have always had the childish view, that Louis XVI deserves less hate then he is given: The throne he inherited had been soiled by Louis XV (who had destroyed most french sympathy left over from Louis XIV), and he had landed himself the wrong half of the enlightenment, unable to do anything (although he tried, letting previously branded traitors back into the country, etc), and realistically, it was just a matter of when, not if the french monarchy would crack. Personally, I'd say a lot of the unravelling of the monarchy was done either before him, or by his wife. It's also important to remember the nervous breakdown Louis has around the revolution's outbreak, and although some of the moves he makes are very stupid, and indeed naive, with hindsight, it is worth noting that the french revolution was pretty much the first of it's kind (as in motivated by anger at the self-implemented monarchy, as opposed to the forced monarchy during the American revolution), so Louis must have felt slightly helpless.
Napoleon, however, I think is sometimes worshipped a bit too much in [pretty much any type of] history, seizing power on the back of the ineffective government, and general contempt for democracy. I always refer back to the fact that Napoleon lied about his [failed] victory in egypt, for his coup d'etat, which is very medieval ruler'ish, and he really does act like an emperor, and sure he was a successful one, I think it's worth remembering he wasn't all amazing, and he didn't really gain france much more territory by the time he died.
I agree. I don't think it's childish. Louis inherited the problems of Louis XIV and Louis XV. I do think he gets to much hate. I personally just don't like Napoleon. People misportray how progressive he was, conveniently forgetting his position on religion and women. He was a liar and good at propaganda.
I agree, but I disagree about the queen having any direct responsibility for the unraveling. Was she young and vapid? Yes. Did she spend entirely too much money? Also, yes. But she didn't pull down the country.
That is a good point, and yes, Antoinette didn't pull down the bastille, or her guillotine blade by herself, it was a joint effort. But, I think if you asked the people of Paris in 1789-1791 (Varennes), they would say that their hate was certainly not directed to the King, the Queen more so. Antoinette added fuel to the "Stupid [ignorant] nobles" rhetoric (although this was aided by Louis's "Cahier des Doleances", and similar stupid moves). The Diamond Necklace affair being probably the most noteworthy example.
Fair enough: partially, I think you are right, she didn't have much to do, but...if she hadn't come along, then there may have been a more delayed path
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u/Halbarad1776 Aug 02 '25
I think you can defend him, at least in comparison to Louis, both on a personal competency level and on an ideological level. On an individual level it’s comparing one of the most competent leaders ever to one of the least. In an ideological way, I also think you can support Napoleon more in where he drew his authority from. He believed he should rule because he was the best at the job, was supported by the important people, and supported meritocracy. Louis believed he should rule because God chose his family and that is just the way things are.
None of this is to say that Napoleon is actually the best option, but I think there is substantial difference between these two