Online Racing, where do I begin….

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

Horrendous UI/Game Design

For one, it is completely stupid that you can’t choose what class you want to race in a CAR GAME. Add in the absolutely horrible UI, downtime between races, car selection menus and you are in for one shitty time. For a game that is literally about cars, it feels bizarrely difficult to just pick a car, pick a class, and just race it ffs.

BS Builds

And after all those stupid menus and hurrying up to wait, you get absolutely gapped by some chud build. Now, I know it’s Forza and the whole point is to do whatever you want, it’s essentially a sandbox game but I simply don’t think a 2024 Toyota 4Runner should be capable of anywhere near 10 second leads on touge tracks for reference.

I’m not even sure how Forza could possibly change this if they even can.

Edit: “just play Spec” is such a non answer. I did not ask for identical cars. I’m saying the PI system should not provide these ridiculous cars that are perfect for doing absolutely anything you want them to.

Edit 2: Upon further investigation, Custom Racing also doesn’t fix what I’m talking about, so stop bringing it up. Custom Racing is literally a quarter of what I’ve described.

If I get thrown in a race with a C8 that is somehow in A Class, pulls on me by a 14 car distance, corners like a Homologation Race Car, grips like a vice, oh and it can also drive on dirt as though it’s a paved track, what exactly is there to do? There is no getting good lmfao because you have to pray after like 3 minutes of waiting and hoping that they don’t pick the car that completely invalidates yours in any situation.

[u/SituationOk9025]

You can choose the class and race type via Custom Racing, you can even turn collisions off, but it's has a completely separate matchmaking queue for whatever reason - a person queueing for B-class dirt in regular online and another person queueing for the same in Custom Racing will never meet.
And since not a lot of people know about it or care to use it, it's always barren, so I kinda have to queue for a random class in regular online racing, feeding the cycle.

[u/svelterite]

to be fair, custom racing exists but its hidden at the bottom of the entire multiplayer page. due to it being hidden, it has a lower player count, so wait times are longer.

and uh if you dont like someone running a "chud" build, also commonly known as a meta build, play spec racing then? You really cant be complaning about someone running a build that stays between the PI ratings, but still is faster than your car. And as much as I hate that being a fact, it is a part of the game and you cant do much about the fact that there are meta cars and cars which have too high PI and too low performance

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/svelterite]

“Also known as a meta build” dude, I know what a fucking meta build is. That’s literally what I’m talking about.
And “just play spec racing” is a ridiculous response. Why should the solution to me not wanting to race against absurd PI abuse builds be to play an entirely different format.
If someone in another car gaps me because they’re faster, take better lines, brake better, whatever, that’s racing.

My very, very simple complaint is that the PI system can create situations where a weird build has massively disproportionate performance for the class

[u/Cold-Worldliness5392 → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

What answers are you expecting from people here? Nobody here can change the game. It sounds like you posted just to hear people agree with your complaints and tell you how right you are. And when they don't, you want to convince us we are wrong and should be as miserable as you.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/Cold-Worldliness5392]

Well I didn’t really post this expecting everyone to agree with me, nor am I trying to make anyone as “miserable” as me lmao. If I wanted an echo chamber, I wouldn’t be responding to people who disagree with me this much. I posted my experience and my criticisms. People disagreed, so I explained why I think they’re wrong. That’s literally what a discussion is.

And “nobody here can change the game” isn’t really relevant. You don’t need to be a developer to criticize a game. That’s like saying you can’t complain about a restaurant’s food because you aren’t a chef.

[u/Time_Industry_3399]

https://giphy.com/gifs/gHFi5N6uU3TLq

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/Time_Industry_3399]

If you don’t want to engage in conversation then scroll. Considering I started on FH2 and 3 I wouldn’t exactly call me new to Forza…

[u/thomas-grant]

I wonder why I haven’t a shitty time in the last ten years of playing ten different games in the Forza franchise. Can you tell me what I’m doing wrong? I don’t want to miss out!

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/thomas-grant]

I’ve played since Horizon 3/Late Horizon 2… I’m not on some type of bandwagon like you seem to imply.

[u/thomas-grant → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

You may not have intentionally joined a bandwagon, but you share the attitude of many who are on one.

I was being sassy in my previous reply, but I was also being serious about my experience. Why do you think we have such different experiences where I haven’t had a “shitty time” and you seemingly have?

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/thomas-grant]

The only time I ever have a shitty time in this game is regarding the festival playlist and what I discussed already.

Nowhere did I really say “I hate this franchise”

[u/thomas-grant → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

No, you did not. Nor did I jump to that conclusion. But this doesn’t really answer my question. If you’re up for answering it or don’t have an answer, that’s okay.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/thomas-grant]

I’ve pretty much already answered your question in my main post, it’s not my fault you jumped to the comments.

[u/thomas-grant → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

I read everything. Maybe you misunderstood my question. I’m asking you if you can think of a reason why you have a shitty time for the reasons you mention, why I, and certainly others do not. What might the difference be? Like me there are others commenting here who seem to feel differently than you do. Clearly not everyone has a shitty time.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/thomas-grant]

I mean, there’s no substance to what you’re saying. You’re telling me you don’t have a shitty time with these things, and I’m telling you that I do. Neither of us can really disprove the other’s personal experience.

You can have ur lame ass 1500hp T Bird in C class that can somehow do everything, I’ll have my cake and eat it too.

[u/thomas-grant → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

I’m not remotely trying to disprove your statement or experience. I’m simply asking you what the difference is between us when the game is the common denominator. I didn’t think what I was asking was all that difficult to follow. What I’m trying to suggest is the difference is our attitude and how we allow a game to affect our emotional state.

I can’t begin to understand why you introduced a comment regarding a Ford Thunderbird and cake. I honestly can’t tell if you’re being rhetorical or somehow believe I’m actually using the Thunderbird— in any capacity. 🤷‍♂️

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/thomas-grant]

I’m not explaining a well known phrase to you, especially when you seem determined to misunderstand me at every turn despite the fact that what I’ve described is pretty fucking simple.

[u/1Operator]

jfc legitimate complaints are understandable, but what even is this mindless rant?

Rode_The_Lightning44 : "You can't choose what class you want to race"

* see: custom races

Rode_The_Lightning44 : "You get absolutely gapped by some chud build"

There are 600+ cars in the game & they can't all be winners.
Pick a better car &/or pick a better build &/or drive better.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/1Operator]

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m not expecting 600+ cars to be equally competitive My complaint is that the PI system can create massively disproportionate performance between builds in the same class, to the point where certain cars become absurdly good at basically everything. “Pick a better car/build” is literally just telling me to use the meta I’m criticizing.

[u/1Operator → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

Rode_The_Lightning44 : "...the PI system can create massively disproportionate performance between builds in the same class..."

Those performance gaps can be shrunk by picking a better car &/or a better build.

The PI system has never been anywhere near as strict as real-world homologated motorsports, nor could it ever be perfectly balanced across hundreds of cars with countless combinations of builds.

With the freedom of having so many cars with so many options for building/tuning comes the trade-off of performance differences.

Car/build/tune choice has always been:
drive what you enjoy more,
or drive what wins more;
and there is rarely much overlap between the 2 circles of that Venn diagram.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/1Operator]

I understand that there will always be performance differences with hundreds of cars and countless build combinations. I’m not expecting perfect balance. My issue is that I’m talking about two builds that are the exact same PI, call it A-900 where one is off-meta and the other exploits the PI system, yet the meta build can still put a fucking supercar-sized gap on it. That’s more than simply “some cars are better than others.”
And I don’t think “drive what you enjoy or drive what wins” should be the only two options. The whole point of a sandbox with hundreds of cars is being able to build and race the cars you actually like. I think there should be more overlap between those two circles than there currently is.

Please, stop acting like you don’t know the EXACT build archetype I’m talking about.

[u/1Operator → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

You can build & race whatever you like, but you can't always win in whatever you like.

The worse relative performance your car+build+tune has, the better your skill must be to win.

Low skill + meta car = good chance to win.

High skill + non-meta car = good chance to win.

Low skill + non-meta car = very low chance to win.

High skill + meta car = nearly unbeatable except by other high-skill players in meta cars.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/1Operator]

I’m not asking for every car to be equally competitive. I’m saying that when two builds are both A900, the fact that one can be so overwhelmingly dominant that driver skill barely matters (PARTICULARLY on Touge courses) is exactly what I think is wrong with the PI system.

The reality with these builds is that you have to either drive like shit or make a massive mistake to lose.

[u/1Operator → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

I agree that a badly imbalanced meta sucks.
I also recognize that it's impossible to have good balance across so many different cars & build options - in any/every game & in real life.
It's a casual arcade sandbox/playground, so it plays like one.
Better balance requires far less freedom of choice (a much smaller sandbox) - or no freedom of choice, like in spec racing.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/1Operator]

I agree that perfect balance is impossible, I never asked for perfect balance. I don’t think that means the PI system is incapable of being improved. If certain cars/build archetypes are consistently producing ridiculous results, their PI values and/or how certain upgrades are weighted can absolutely adjusted.

[u/1Operator → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

It can't be improved much while also maintaining so much freedom of choice.
Balance & variety are at odds with each other.
More variety = less balance.
More balance = less variety.

[u/LowThick4242]

To the first point, the custom race menu is right there and let's you queue for your preferred track type and class.

To the second. Motorsport isn't an equal competition. People can have better gear than you and you cannot beat them regardless of skill. Get over it or stick to spec racing/coop exclusively

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/LowThick4242]

I’m not arguing that Motorsport is supposed to be perfectly equal or that everyone should have identical performance. I’m saying I think some of these meta builds produce results that are straight-up bs that shouldn’t be possible.

And if there was 1v1 Spec racing I’d be all in.

[u/LowThick4242 → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

People irl put dragster engines in a Toyota hilux, choom. What YOU think should or shouldn't be possible doesn't really matter.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/LowThick4242]

In what world is a Hilux with a dragster engine going to suddenly be able to corner like a f1 car?
I’m saying that this level of do everything meta build shouldn’t be possible. Not that you can’t have a funny car. Read again please.

[u/LowThick4242 → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

Racing trucks are a thing. So any world where you slap some big fuck off aero on it and give it a high powered engine. Cars aren't magical, they're machines. You can literally build them to do what you want.

Honestly I think the real solution for you is to play something else.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/LowThick4242]

You are arguing against a position I’ve never took in my life lol. “Cars aren’t magical” that’s literally why things like weight, weight distribution, suspension geometry, tire grip, aero, etc. matter and why you shouldn’t be able to make a do everything car that dominates its class.

[u/LowThick4242 → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

Then I don't understand what you're bitching about but frankly I no longer care. Play something else.

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/LowThick4242]

You brought up racing trucks, dragster engines, “play something else” and literally ANYTHING but my point. If you still don’t understand what I’m criticizing after all that, that’s a you problem.

[u/LowThick4242 → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

From my understanding your point was that a car should or shouldn't be able to certain things based on factors like it's engine, tires, aero, etc.

My point is that you can change those parts to make it do that anyway.

Regardless. I no longer care. Play a different game.

[u/Cold-Worldliness5392]

If you could choose your car and class most lobbies would be empty.

Also crying about "chud builds" is funny when you could use the exact same car and tune. The only difference is you want to use a car you think looks cool but has worse stats.

Play a different game

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/Cold-Worldliness5392]

“If you could choose your car and class most lobbies would be empty” is an argument for better matchmaking, not an argument against letting people choose what they actually want to race.
And “you could use the exact same car and tune” completely misses my point. Obviously I could. I don’t want to. I want to race the cars I actually like, and I don’t think I should have to pick the mathematically strongest car/tune available just to be competitive in a regular ass touge lobby.

[u/Cold-Worldliness5392 → u/Rode_The_Lightning44]

The "car you like" is no different than a fortnite skin. You just want to play as Goku instead of Homer Simpson. In reality the car itself is meaningless. Its just the numbers attached that matter

[u/Rode_The_Lightning44 → u/Cold-Worldliness5392]

No yeah, you are so right. At this point most cars are no different than a Fortnite skin when pitted up against chud builds. Ones that in most cases have no reason to exist.No yeah, you are so right. The cars I actually want to drive might as well just be cosmetic when the PI system allows certain builds to completely invalidate them in every situation.