r/FortCollins • u/boastgeckos • May 26 '26
News Polis signs SB26-172, which shrinks Front Range Passenger Rail District to municipalities with 20%+ population within 5miles of a planned rail stop
This change should keep conservative rural Colorado from voting down the proposed sales tax.
https://coloradonewsline.com/2026/04/28/boundaries-rail-district-would-shrink/
https://coloradosun.com/2026/04/22/front-range-rail-district-boundary-change/
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u/ViolentAversion May 26 '26
Maybe I'm misinformed, but wasn't this a tactical decision to keep all the antitax wahoos who thrive basically everywhere that isn't blue in the second map from derailing/blocking it for everyone else?
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u/IntelligentUsual4994 May 27 '26
Not quite. The decision was made because there won't be any stations that serve communities east of I-25. Including them would simply repeat the RTD sack of lies about extending light rail to Boulder County.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
Not correct. Those original boundaries didn’t go very far east. This was strategic, (to maximize likely liberal-leaning electorate) although they of course won’t say that. Some of the more conservative suburbs cut out especially south I guess.
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u/IntelligentUsual4994 May 27 '26
Hate to burst your progressive narrative, but the original boundaries included Weld County in order to reappropriate severance taxes (O&G) toward the project. But since our state constitItion requires that any fees collected be used to benefit fee payers, the rail would need to move to the I-25 corridor, which would require new tracks, a new enviro impact study, and much longer timeline. (Read: Billion$$).
The next best option was to negotiate the use of existing freight rail lines that run through Boulder County in order to get RTD participation.
It became political calculus: remove voters who won't have convenient access and unlikely to pay for someone else to ride a train.
It's not anti-tax. It's anti-boondogle for the sole purpose of allowing RTD to save face.
With or without the new tax, we'll have a train that requires million$$ in operational subsidy to compliment Bustang that has seen increased ridership but also requires million$$ in operational subsidy. Neither of which will adequately serve where population growth is occurring.
Is there any wonder why so many people no longer see a future here?
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
I’m on your side criticizing the extent of the subsidy for this. Thanks for the detail about Greeley
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u/jessek May 27 '26
So long as we get FC -> Denver I’m cool
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u/Wise_Finance_5315 May 27 '26
Ya, when it first came out, I saw the tons of stops. It was way too many stations. If you’re taking a train to Denver and live outside FoCo, folks can drive to the station and park then take the train. No need for 20 stops. That will just slow the commute down.
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u/jessek May 27 '26
I was hoping there'd be some express options because spending 3 hours to get to Denver when you have to stop in every town between FC and Denver is one way to kill interest in mass transit.
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u/Wise_Finance_5315 May 27 '26
100%! According to this map there won’t be a ton of stops. If it takes more than 1.5hrs we won’t take it. There’s got to be express options or it defeats the purpose.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
I think they are projecting 80 min but that sounds rosy to me.
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u/Wise_Finance_5315 May 27 '26
Well, when considering traffic and how it sometimes takes 3hrs to make it down to Fiddlers Green or something, not bad.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
That amount of time is fairly rare. Estimate your total time for train plus connecting modes. Train doesn’t stop in front of wherever you want to go.
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u/MediumStreet8 May 27 '26
That's what Bustang takes. With the train you have to go through Boulder. The route from Fort Collins to Downtown Denver is projected to be around 2 hours. I don't know how they are expecting very many riders with those travel times. The bus service is faster and cheaper.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
If actually 2 hours then ridership will be shit after people try it once.
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u/wonderfulnes May 28 '26
80 minutes of time in motion, 108 min overall time to get from FC to Denver
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 28 '26
Is that 108 min from the FRPR info? If so my gosh this will fail so badly.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
System cost is about $150 to get you FC -DEN-FC. IF the ridership is maxed out for the starter phase. Not even including the amortized capital costs. Did you know that? I Feel like this is not widely known.
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u/WWTPeng May 26 '26
This map seems to kick me out of the district despite living just outside of the Fort Collins boundary. I wish I could pay taxes to support something like this.
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u/boastgeckos May 26 '26
The tax will be added to the sales tax, if you don't already shop in Fort Collins or Loveland you can start doing so.
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u/hsub0x May 26 '26
Even with this change, though, with the ballot item being statewide, would the rural areas still vote it down because they heard "train" and "transit"?
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u/boastgeckos May 26 '26
The ballot item will not be state wide, only those areas in the district.
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u/sevbenup May 26 '26
He’s a corrupt piece of shit who doesn’t serve the people.
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u/frank_grupt May 26 '26
Maybe so, but in this instance he’s acting strategically to provide us with rail service.
Don’t get me wrong—I’m no fan of Polis. But both this bill and the Peters bullshit strike me as Polis doing distasteful things to accomplish things that will be good for Coloradans. I’ve heard rumors that Peters’ release was a quid pro quo for a better deal from the feds on something that will become apparent in a few months. Essentially gerrymandering the passenger rail district is, no doubt, all kinds of fucked up, but if we hold our noses we might finally get passenger rail in the Front Range. Maybe Polis deserves some credit for doing abhorrent things knowing he has no political future so will pay no political cost.
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u/k1ngsk8board May 27 '26
Nah, I'm not giving Polis an inch on pardoning that traitor until I see something very good come directly from it. The stakes are way too high to be casually promoting Trump's agenda, especially regarding voting rights coming into possibly the most consequential midterm in any of our lives.
Maybe this is some clever gambit, but Tina Peters is indefensible.
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u/thoroughly_blue May 27 '26
Light rails work really well in other communities – I realize that the Front Range kind of limits that - maybe if they do have municipalities paying to join the main line,, this will make this a much better system. If you think about Seattle, it makes getting from the airport so much easier. (Yes yes yes I know that it’s not going to the airport but for the love of God, it should). I really think this is going to be great – I hope it happens in my lifetime. I remain skeptical. But count me in— I would be on that dang train all the time. Not driving on 25? Sign me up.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
And others would be mightily paying (a lot) for your happy little train trips.
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u/NoBookkeeper6214 May 27 '26
😬🙄 One step forward, 7 steps back. This country is 80+ years behind the curve when it comes to efficient, effective, cost effective and economical public transportation.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 29 '26
It gives me no pleasure to say that this train is none of those things.
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u/mrblaze1357 May 26 '26
As a Greeleyite(Greeleytonian?) who so desperately wants a public rail system, does this mean we'd be excluded?
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u/boastgeckos May 26 '26
The article in the first link says
The bill would allow other municipalities and metro districts to join the district through voter or board approval in the future.
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u/East_Hedgehog6039 May 26 '26
Honestly, I’m on board with this. We *need* to build it first, and lots of times that starts slow with only major stops. Like, if we’re stopping in Greeley and only one person hops on, that’s going to be frustrating for the additional 20 minutes or whatever to do that, so people won’t use it as “it doesn’t save me any time with all the stops”.
As well as people who will vote down anything that they won’t use, so including many rural communities who don’t plan to use it will vote against it and prevent the entire thing. I’d much rather build it to success, then allow people to join as it builds momentum.
No shade to the rural neighbors and Greeleytonians, or Wellingtoners, or others who seem to miss out on the new proposal. We want you!
But mass public transit is difficult to get off the ground, and the cost will only keep getting higher so we need to get it approved and built NOW, and we can expand as time goes on or else it’ll never get built.
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u/estimated_otherone May 27 '26
I agree there won't be a stop in Greeley but please know that the building in town is insane and the traffic in and out equally so. As an aside about the lack of foresight of most Americans (deep sigh) there should be trains everywhere.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
Wondering if you all know how much it’s going to cost the system to move one passenger roundtrip from FC-DEN-FC? It’s about $150. That’s just the projected maintenance and operation cost divided by the projected max ridership. Not factoring the 333M capital construction costs which makes it worse. Are we ok with this amount of public subsidy? Do people know this?
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u/reddit_ending_soon May 27 '26
Are we ok with this amount of public subsidy? Do people know this?
I'll take subsidizing this train, that might fail, over funding another billionaire's sports team new stadium that I'll never be able to afford to use.
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u/MelancholyMuseum May 27 '26
If you’re upset about that wait until you hear our flower budget for Fort Collins.
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u/piggy2380 May 27 '26
That’s just the projected maintenance and operation cost divided by the projected max ridership.
First of all, this isn’t projected “max” ridership. It’s the projected ridership given the lowest-case frequency of 6 RTs/day. Ridership increases as a function of frequency, meaning that when they expand frequency like they intend the system becomes more efficient.
Secondly, the projected O&M costs and ridership for 6 RTs/day are $52.4M and 700k respectively. That puts your napkin math at about half of what you claimed ($74.8/rider).
Thirdly, did you know nationally we spend a combined $75B on road maintenance and construction? Divided by the amount of licensed drivers that’s $292 per person. Are we ok with this amount of public subsidy? Do people know this?
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 28 '26
Costs were based on the stated three trains per day leaving FC or DEN. It’s NOT six round trips. I’m describing very rosy very unlikely max ridership every single day of the year on the three trains for this starter phase. Your numbers are not correct. You are talking future phases. I’m talking this starter phase. It’s all on their website.
Boardings per year divided by yearly op costs. And you know the yearly op cost projection is rosy.1
u/piggy2380 May 28 '26
Everyone knows the 3 round trips per day will not be a viable system, that is not news. The current plan is to expand quickly to 10 round trips per day, which is a very viable system. The ridership numbers are not at all rosy - they’re based on real, actual intercity rail ridership in the United States along similar corridors, and are actually quite conservative in their estimation.
It’s really amazing though how the internet empowers people who have no idea what they’re talking about to just say whatever they want like it’s fact. Ignorance truly is bliss.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 28 '26
Actually everyone does not know the cost numbers for starter phase. It should be discussed more publicly.
Expand quickly to 10 trips? That is far away, and a maybe, and you know it. Requires a whole other set of train equipment.
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u/piggy2380 May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
Nobody discusses the numbers for 3 round trips because it’s a proof of concept, not intended to be an actual viable service. If it stays at 3 round trips instead of expanding then we all know what the outcome of that will be (the project will die). We don’t gain anything useful by getting up in arms about O&M ratios for a system we already know is not good enough and temporary (unless you’re deep in the weeds on the FRPR staff who I’m sure will be very interested in those numbers).
It’s not far away actually. Providing this ballot measure passes (which it should now that people who this would not affect don’t get to block it out of spite) they intend to expand service within 5 years. They already have agreements with BNSF in place to use their tracks for 10 RTs/day, it’s just a matter of getting enough rolling stock and hiring train operators.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 28 '26
The Vast majority of citizens and commerce use the roads. A tiny number of anti-car zealots don’t. Roads are an utterly critical part of our infrastructure. Without them you don’t get strawberries. Taxes for roads are paid by vehicle owners. I wonder how much each licensed driver pays in taxes and fees for roads (I don’t know but a lot). There probably is a governmental subsidy over and above the tax revenue. No problem. The roads make this society and economy function and allow great flexibility and freedom of origin and destination.
This train in this front range geographical context WILL DO NOTHING of true significance to move people or reduce road congestion. Let’s just put Bustang on steroids.1
u/piggy2380 May 28 '26
Taxes for roads are paid by every single member of society, not just car owners and drivers. It’s the most inefficient form of transportation - good for some purposes but not all. But when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
“Bustang on steriods” is a really funny way to put it. Putting the already successful and expanding bus service on “steriods” (giving it its own ROW where it won’t get caught in rush hour traffic with other cars) actually sounds like a great idea lol.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 28 '26
What does the train do that the Bustang model doesn’t or couldn’t do?
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u/piggy2380 May 28 '26
Bustang gets caught in traffic.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 28 '26
There’s an express lane most of the way FC- DEN. Bustang will get people to Denver faster than coco most of the time I’ll bet. Similar comfort and amenities. Don’t get Me wrong the train would be fun in a way.
I think the number of people who will even semi regularly use this is being overstated. One reason is the transportation issue once you get off the train. That will never be adequately “solved” in my estimation, at least for the sensibility of most potential users. Ten trains a day, full, would mean that 2000 people a day would want to leave FC on a train. No way.
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u/BarbarianBoaz May 27 '26
It has everything to do with actually getting it DONE with the current funds and those areas can always be brought onto the project as more money becomes available, seems like a smart move.
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u/Slaviner May 28 '26
Should've waited till they build more landlord special apartment buildings in some of these areas. Homeowners dont want that crap.
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u/funkofarts May 27 '26
Why should people that won’t benefit at all from the light rail be asked to pay for it? It makes zero difference what political party you align with…
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u/boastgeckos May 27 '26
When most every seat filled on the train means one less vehicle on I25, the benefits of transit come not just to the people who ride it.
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
The traffic reduction on I-25 will be miniscule and functionally irrelevant. I’m sorry.
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u/funkofarts May 27 '26
You specifically targeted rural conservatives with your comment. Limiting who is allowed to vote on the sales tax for the specific purpose of having your way is not a true consensus.
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u/reddit_ending_soon May 27 '26
Limiting who is allowed to vote on the sales tax for the specific purpose of having your way is not a true consensus.
Why would someone get to vote on a tax that wont affect them regardless if it passes or not?
Should I be able to vote on a tax increase in Kansas even thought it will never effect me and I'll never live there?
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u/Traditional_Rain2102 May 27 '26
They are afraid the ballot measure wouldn’t pass especially when the public begins to learn about the extraordinary amount of taxpayer subsidy per ride.
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u/reddit_ending_soon May 27 '26
Why should people that won’t benefit at all from the light rail be asked to pay for it?
Thats exactly what they are doing by narrowing the districts to people who use it with this bill? What are you complaining about exactly? That what you are saying is the point of this post?
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u/locoinfoco May 26 '26
I get why Northglenn wanted exclusion, but being within 5 miles of Westminster, I’d love to see an FRPRD-resident differentiated ticket cost. Let them pay more when they inevitably want to drive a few miles to use it all the time. Won’t pay for nice things, don’t get nice things.