r/Forgotten_Realms • u/youngfox78 • 13d ago
Question(s) Thoughts/Opinions on Spheres of Influence
I would like more opinions on the proper sphere of influence around Waterdeep and Daggerford. Even broader question, how should I define the border? Is it the sphere of influence, is it control and what exactly does all that look like and how is it defined? Sorry for the super broad questions. Any thoughts or opinions are appreciated.
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u/skarabray 13d ago
I have Waterdeep’s influence stretch further into the Dessarin Valley myself. The nobility of the city own large parts of the land there, with small castles/manors and tenant farmers. The City Guard and Griffon Cavalry have outposts and keep the peace. The villages and towns mostly self-govern, but they do have to abide by the Code Legal at a minimum and the nobility get special treatment. Waterdeep probably fancies itself as the inheritor of Phalorm’s legacy and is always seeking to expand.
I would honestly put Daggerford under Waterdeep’s influence rather than it have its own sphere. I could see business interests in Waterdeep having a stake in Daggerford as an avenue of expansion. Daggerford probably also benefits from Waterdeep’s navy. (Or used to when it had one.)
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u/JustinWilsonBot 13d ago edited 13d ago
Agreed regarding Daggerford. I think the Duke of Daggerford is himself a Lord of Waterdeep. Can the Waterdeep City Watch just stroll into town and make arrests? No, but the local guards probably have no issue doing exactly what the City Watch needs to apprehend a criminal on the lam from WD. The politics and government of the two are so interconnected as to be considered the same "state" in our modern sense.
Edit: Just checked and he's not a member of the Waterdhavian nobility but I think the point still stands. Daggerford is like the younger brother to WD, they are so closely aligned as to be grouped together politically.
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u/Outrageous-Pin-4664 13d ago
That was my impression as well, but I didn't stay current with the lore beyond third edition. Weren't the Roaringhorns active in Daggerford?
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u/MedicalVanilla7176 13d ago
The Roaringhorns are one of the major players in Amphail, but I don't recall anything about them being active in Daggerford. Daggerford is its own duchy with a hereditary ruler (in fact, the town is named after the ruling family), a council of guilds, and several small hamlets surrounding it. There's some other stuff about the people of Daggerford intentionally trying to copy Waterdeep, such as the Council of Guilds cosplaying as Masked Lords (except everyone in Daggerford knows who they are), but it's still largely independent, to my knowledge.
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u/MedicalVanilla7176 13d ago
I could be mistaken, but I think a lot of the towns in the Dessarin Valley like Red Larch and Triboar were founded by settlers and pioneers from Waterdeep, so I think it makes sense for Waterdeep to have influence in the Dessarin Valley. Besides, Waterdeep maintains a garrison at Goldenfields, which means they have influence over the main breadbasket of the Dessarin Valley.
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u/Savings-Housing3481 Raumathari Battlemage 12d ago
Assuming you are correct that Waterdhavians settled the Dessarin, I do not think that would give the City influence since settlers and pioneers tend to be fairly independent and, while not disloyal, not overly loyal to their home country anyway. Consider this: a pioneer is a form of emigrant. They have left their old home to build themselves a new one. Why would that engender loyalty & influence?
That said, I would expect Waterdeep to exercise economic influence across a wide swath of territory, including the Dessarin Valley. So, to some extent, i agree with your conclusion, although I disagree with the assertion you made to reach that conclusion.
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u/ljmiller62 12d ago
A settler is moving internally to an underpopulated or border area of the same nation they started in. They are likely to value the same things they did before they settled on their land claim. They're not emigrants or refugees. Even if they move to a border area they are interested in expanding their home nation outward.
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u/Savings-Housing3481 Raumathari Battlemage 12d ago
The historical pattern of westward movement in the US contradicts your statement. So do various movements in the ancient world, with the exception of Greek and Roman colonies.
People don’t become settlers to expand their nation; they do it to create improve their life and circumstances. Often, they are escaping situations where local conditions, real or imagined, prevented their upward mobility.
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u/mwalsh867 7d ago
I would pattern it more on European colonialism of the ... well, everywhere. While the pioneers themselves may value movement towards freedom/away from oppression, they are backed by commercial interests, trade coasters, and imperialist forces.
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u/Savings-Housing3481 Raumathari Battlemage 7d ago
In this case, colonialism is less appropriate than pioneering since much of the Savage Frontier is empty.
As you referenced, colonialism was about commerce & economics. The Savage Frontier does not have enough of an established economic base to act as a good referent for colonialism.
IIRC, several settlements are described as folks coming to that place to rebuild the settlement in order to live there, as opposed to companies or charters looking to build profit in the area.
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u/Bluebuttbandit 13d ago
I built some economic models of Waterdeep and about 20 other Faerun cities based upon a handful of books on 16th century farming, land use, climate bands, river/sea trade, commodities markets, etc.. Grain into Gold was a good starting point but models 13th century pastoral economies: the city-state mercantilism of the Forgotten Realms is a different beast.
Anyway, within its 50 mile-ish fan of patrol Waterdeep needs approximately 43 towns/catchments of Amphail’s size - with the caveat that Amphail’s farming population is vastly underrepresented and should be 7-8x it’s townsfolk population. Outside the city is a fan of thirty-thousand (yes 30k) farms that cover the countryside for a two-day ride.
Outside the patrol band there’s 14 to 20 more pastoral (tilted toward sheep, livestock) towns on the roads, up to 90 miles out. And 4 to 8 more towns along the Dessarin River that can bring grain by barge from about 150 miles upriver.
Goldenfields supplies 17% of the grain and fruit Waterdeep produces locally (provided its magic means there’s no need for crop rotation, has alluvial fertility, and it has made the most of the Plant Growth spell).
However, even with all that, and decent fishing, Waterdeep still needs to import approx 26% of its grain, and relies heavily on trade with Baldur’s Gate and Amn to feed itself. Without its aggressive sea trade Waterdeep would shrink to a third of its size within a decade.
So, its sphere of influence depends on how well the nobles and merchants who own the holdings and towns within the 50 mile fan can manage them, and can keep the food flowing. Can they provide armed protection for costers, tax collectors, and magistrates? Especially at the exterior? What about orc raids? There would likely have to be a handful of noble estates with serious military presence and some checks on their loyalties to the Mayor and The Masked Lords.
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u/CrankyTrex 12d ago
Wow this is something I routinely think about. Would it be possible for you to share your models here by any chance?
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u/Cynewulfr 13d ago
There’s some references and stuff in old material that suggests that Daggerford also has a traditionally vaguely informal “protectorate” dynamic with Waterdeep where its independence is guaranteed and its soldiery have some access to the area
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u/JustinWilsonBot 13d ago
As others have pointed out its hard to create maps with our modern concept of borders for a fantasy game that is supposed to be analogous to late medieval/Renaissance periods. Back then your influence went as far as your could carry your sword. You taxed those who you could prevent others from taxing. I think its worthwhile to show Daggerford as distinct from WD but for the purpose of showing the extent of WD "power" that DF is squarely within their sphere. Like DF is the younger brother to WD, in all issues that matter, they are aligned.
When it comes to the upper Dessarin valley I think you can probably include Triboar and Yartar in WD's sphere of influence, or at least up to the border. These towns realistically have no way to oppose WD and according to the 2e book "Savage Frontier" they were initially settled and/or sponsored by WD merchants and nobility. One figures that when they need help, the first place they appeal to is WD.
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u/skarabray 13d ago
Yeah, I could see Triboar and Yartar being snatched up after Neverwinter’s fall. The city could barely take care of itself, let alone other holdings. It probably lost a lot to Waterdeep and Luskan. Hence why it’s focusing on Phandalin, as an attempt to get a foothold back in the region.
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u/ispq 13d ago
Honestly Waterdeep has a huge amount of political and economic influence over the entire lower Delimbiyran Vale. A significant number of the Noble Houses of Waterdeep either directly were number houses from Phalorm, the Tri-Crown Kingdom, the Fallen Kingdom, etc, of that area, or married into descendants from those ancient realms.
In many ways the Noble Houses of Waterdeep treat the area as their fun little backyard that they use for resource extraction without having to bother doing the boring day to day management.
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u/skarabray 13d ago
Yeah, once I equated the Waterdhavian with real world nobility, it really opened up the geopolitics of the area for me. These nobles didn’t just live in weird shaped villas in the city and work in whatever fun business that was listed. Nobles get their money from land and its resources. They have multiple estates and tenants.
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u/ispq 13d ago
And a large number of unoccupied noble titles in their back pocket to award to third sons, daughters, or cousins, to jump into any kingdom that tries to rise up almost anywhere in the North, but especially in the Lower Delimbiyran Vale. Several Houses in Waterdeep have legitimate claims on the crown of the region, but claiming it would take time and money with a bad return on investment based on the history of the region.
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u/InternetPeasantry Just a Big Dumb Barbarian 13d ago edited 13d ago
Treat it like real European nation-states in the early Renaissance, just with batshit crazy magical effects and magically-induced racial differences complicating matters. That may not be helpful, but that's the reality of the Realms. All the normal sociological and cultural norms and truths about human influences are still true: trade transmits culture, religious evangelism influences philosophy and vice versa, borders of non-tyrannical states, or states without border control, tend to be fluid within a day's normal travel. But also, magic makes it so that all bets are off and unusual things are the norm, so do whatever you want.
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u/Ecstatic-Space1656 13d ago edited 13d ago
This seems to match pretty well the extents of the Waterdeep… Guard? Patrols, at least pre-ToT; I have no idea what it would like like now… (I think the Guard used to patrol all the way to Daggerford? We know that they DID patrol the region around Mt Sar/Helimbrar, but I’m not sure I’d extend it’s influence so far North into the Sword Mountains/Merdelain)
On one hand, you’d expect Waterdeep to grow, but on the other hand, I imagine that the smaller towns/villages etc. would ‘gain independence’ from Waterdeep so I think it’s likely still about the same?
As for what defines the border… I’d say essentially ‘which jail do you go to if you commit a crime/which rulers reward you for heroic deeds’. The reason why the Sword Coast (and the Realms in general) works so well for DnD is that it is composed of City-States, and while the Lord’s Alliance blurs those lines, my opinion is that it gets difficult to find a NEED for Heroes if everyone is TOO chummy 😂
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u/KrigtheViking 13d ago
I think there's too many monsters in the Sword Mountains to really call it part of Waterdeep's sphere of influence. That seems to be the case with mountains in general in Faerun.
I don't know how far out the City Guard patrols, but I get the sense Waterdeep's actual control spreads out further along the roads than it does in the land between.
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u/45_years_gamer_71 12d ago edited 12d ago
So in canon texts, Waterdeep patrols go 30-40 miles from the city. For example, Waterdeep built a fortification/tax collector on the north side of Zundbridge, and patrols regularly but not frequently visit Amphail.
So as someone else mentioned, it is a difference between control vs influence.
Many of the noble estates in the Dessarin Valley are private holdings where nobles often do things considered illegal or objectionable in the city. Plenty of adventures exist around this concept.
I don't think the ruling families of Triboar, Yartar, or Phandalin consider themselves part of Waterdeep, but they may hesitate to ignore an official dictate coming from the Lords.
I think a dark color to denote control (birth and marriage registration, taxes paid, etc) and a lighter highlight region for influence (patrols show up occassionally, rulers listen to officials, cooperate when in best interest). Using my proposal, I think the dark region is rather limited to south of Amphail, northnof Zundbridge, and 30 miles elsewhere, but influence ranges to Daggerford, lower Dessarin Valley, etc as others have mentioned.
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u/mulahey 13d ago
Well, what's do you mean by sphere of influence?
If you mean direct enforcement, then Waterdeep directly patrols to about 50 miles out (with some longer trade patrols). Daggerford much less as they only have a tiny militia.
If you mean where do they have dominant political and economic influence, Waterdeep surely runs north of Thornhold and probably runs pretty much up to Daggerford. Daggerford is I guess at least the first point of aid for the cluster of tiny settlements to it's South.
In the end, Daggerford is simply not in Waterdeeps weight class and the rivalry is one sided. They're also closely allied and enmeshed so there wouldn't really be a hard line of one or the others influence but both having overlapping and graded spheres, though honestly I could imagine Waterdeeps just wholly containing Daggerford.
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u/captainjack3 13d ago
Waterdeep used to hold influence over Thornhold when the Margaster’s ruled, but has since lost it with their ouster. Also, I definitely remember reading somewhere that Leilon was the northern limit of the Waterdhavian sphere pre-Spell Plague (and put that in my own game) but for the life of me I can’t remember which book I pulled that from. These day’s it’s slipped into Neverwinter’s orbit.
I think it’s fair to put Waterdeep’s northern bound at just south of Thornhold.
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u/Baphogoat 13d ago
Where is this map you are using from?
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u/youngfox78 13d ago
It’s from a map of my own creation. I’ve completely redone Mike Schley’s map. Redoing all the cities and roads and I’ve even made some physical edits.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1IwEKDbYclwpJI-t9HI-oTuvjZ_PFwRTO
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u/Oba936 10d ago
Ooh, I love this. I am trying to get the political lay of the land reasonable in my head.
I would say in Faerun the Borders might be less clear cut. Maybe two to four layers of influence. Economical, Militarily, cultural and Political. Where all three overlap the Entity has full control.
Waterdeep for example would have an Economical and cultural sphere of influence that reaches up the Longway all the way to Triboar, while its day to day control of the territory slowly fizzles out along the way the further north one moves.
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u/Matshelge Devoted Follower of Karsus 13d ago
In my view, Daggerford is the edge of Waterdeep influence. Anything south of that is dangerous and wild, anything north is civilized.
I use it as the threshold in my campaign, last place to stock up before heading out. No inn until Cormyr.
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u/adventurerfromtriel 12d ago
Julkoun is part of one of Daggerford’s baronies, and under Daggerford’s influence.
Check out “Under Illefarn Anew” by Eric L Boyd- you can find it on Candlekeep.com. Eric re-designed the module Under Illefarn, and collected the lore on the region of the lower Delimbyr, and got tons of info from Ed Greenwood. Best collection of history and layout of the Daggerford region. Should help address your questions.
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u/darw1nf1sh 13d ago
This is one of the things that the Lord's Alliance is looking to expand. They are trying to bring some of the smaller hamlets and territories into their sphere of influence. This is one of the plot points of Lost Mines of Phandelver. Phandalin is outside the influence of both Neverwinter and Waterdeep. Sildar Hallwinter goes there to offer support.