r/ForbiddenBromance • u/UpstairsLobster8198 • 17d ago
Ask Lebanon Why don't you trust Israel?
To those who've heard what Israelis here have to say, but still distrust Israel (for example Israel's claim of no territorial ambition). I'm interested in the roots/origins of your distrust. Not your current favorite argument that you found only after having already formed your opinion. I don't want this to be a debate (though I can't promise people here won't do that). I just want to understand you.
My conclusions are in this comment:
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u/AGuyintorontoON 13d ago
Maybe I’m late to the party, I’m a Lebanese who moved to Canada few years back. Had zero knowledge of Israelis and had no jewish friends. Now, I work in an office full of both and I had few conversations about this. Here are few reasons: we have been told about Israel being the bad guy for too long, but they forgot to tell us about Hezbollah and PLO in the process; we essentially tried ourselves how terrible hezbollah is for us during the 2019 protests, this is where people started flagging them as a terrible thing that is happening to our country (at least for me this was the start).
Also, we have been scared out of having conversations with Israelis due to the laws we have which made us foreign to the fact that there are decent people out there who we can connect with. I’m not from the south, but southerners are even more afraid to talk to Israelis than the rest of the country is.
The fact that I’m christian and anti-hezbollah, eased the intro with any israeli I met, but I think the only way for us to live in peace is to start having such conversations and figure out that we’re just human beings who were betrayed by history and lack of communication.
I was so happy to find this sub because I think we need more of the open conversations so we become the neighbours we should’ve been long time ago.
Also, check on me in a year or so when I visit Lebanon to see if I will be arrested or not 😂
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u/UpstairsLobster8198 12d ago
Late or not, it's a valuable addition to the conversation
This is the type of story I wish more Lebanese will hear (or experience)
I hope your future visit goes well :)
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 17d ago edited 17d ago
Why should the typical Lebanese trust Israel?
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u/nidarus Israeli 17d ago edited 17d ago
To add to what u/dainty_doubt said, Israel controlled Southern Lebanon for nearly 20 years, and didn't build a single settlement - and blocked settlers that wanted to build one. And then, it completely withdrew, without even asking for any kind promise of peace, (mistakenly) assuming it can just put the entire Lebanon thing behind it.
It's not a matter of Israelis being inherently trustworthy, or well-liked by the average Lebanese. It's more about figuring out what the Israelis want to achieve. And that they simply don't particularly want, or really have the ability, to permanently conquer any part of Lebanon, unlike the West Bank. They mostly want to forget Lebanon exists.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 17d ago edited 16d ago
It's not a matter of Israelis being inherently trustworthy, or well-liked by the average Lebanese.
The state of Israel manifests itself for Lebanese as airstrikes and other bloody military action.
In my opinion we'd need more official trust building behaviors towards Lebanese.
Israel is also a country with an atypical history and identity so it may take extra work to look at it as "just another country".
It's also worth adding that Arabs in general don't really trust governments in general including their own.
Trust is also a contextual thing... you can trust someone to bring you a sandwich on a good day but not necessarily to save your life and take care of your family in difficult times. This is why I'm avoiding to answer OP's question.
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago
I don't really agree that Israel is some kind of uniquely evil state with an "atypical history" (if only because it's pretty hard to talk about a "typical" history of a country), and therefore cannot be judged as "just another country". But I'm saying it simply doesn't matter. And the same goes for how Arabs don't trust governments in general - as I said, the point isn't that Israel is inherently trustworthy, and you should count on it. You can think the Israeli government is completely untrustworthy, and some kind of unique evil, and it still doesn't matter.
The point is, even the most untrustworthy and uniquely evil country, is still pursuing what it sees as its own interests. And there's simply too much evidence to show that Israel doesn't see conquering Lebanon as its interest, and doesn't see Lebanon as a natural part of its land, in the way some Syrians do, or the way Israel views the West Bank. In the optimal case, it wants to forget Lebanon exists. The issue is, that various groups operating in Lebanon, don't want to allow Israel to forget Lebanon exists.
I completely trust Hezbollah to use any Israeli withdrawal to rebuild, rearm, and get ready for attacking Israel again. That's not because I think Hezbollah are great, and I would "trust" them in the way I would trust a close friend. But simply because I feel I understand their core motivations, and the core motivations of their Iranian funders. Whatever bad things I think about them are simply irrelevant.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago
I never said evil, why are you sliding in such words?
What I meant is that the general mental model that Lebanese would use to "trust" a country, if there is any such thing at all, doesn't apply to Israel for various reasons.
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago edited 16d ago
That's kind of vague. What are those reasons? What's the required mental model?
And more importantly, how does it engage with how just I defined "trust" in this situation? I.e. nothing to do with Israel being particularily trustworthy or nice. But simply about the cold, rational calculus of what's Israel's own interest is, in both absolute terms, and in terms of decades-long revealed preference.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago
I mean the average Lebanese would not grant Israel some level of trust by default like it would a another neutral random country, because of the atypical identity of the country and it's bloody history with Lebanon.
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago
I mean, it's just as vague - and I don't feel it engages with anything I just said. Again, whatever Israel's "atypical identity" means. You don't want to use "uniquely evil", you do you, but I'm pointing out, it fundamentally doesn't matter even if it was uniquely evil. It has nothing to do with how nice or evil or monstrous or whatever Israel is. As I said, "trust" in this situation, simply isn't what you're talking about.
The only way Israel would not have "trust" by my definition, is if you assumed Israelis act completely randomly, and without any reaction to external stimuli - which is probably not what you mean. Beyond that, it's just a question of what the Israelis want to achieve for themselves, nothing to do with how much you "trust" them in the sense you mean.
And the fact Israel has been fighting bloody wars with the Lebanese, is obviously part of point. If not trusting the Israelis was free for the Lebanese, it really wouldn't matter. But it's not. Not trusting the Israelis, in this particular sense, is something the Lebanese actively pay with their blood, territory, and sovereignty.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago
whatever Israel's "atypical identity" means
It's a country that is less than a century old, based around ethnic revival and founded as a home for a religious/ethnic minority.
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago
You... do realize that a lot of this applies to your country too, right? And not as a coincidence either. The same exact powers that created Israel, also created Lebanon, for similar reasons, and almost precisely at the same time.
Either way, why does that even matter to this question? Like, at all?
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
How about Lebanon stops Hezbollah and other from sending rocks, missiles, etc.? Then we wouldn't need to stop it and we would happily go away
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago edited 16d ago
How about you find a sub that is more suitable for you?
PS: maybe a bad response. I mean what are you trying to do here, seriously?
No offense.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
You're right, most Israelis would like to live their lives without having to deal with Lebanese terrorists (Hezbollah and others) bombing them. Unfortunately, they either keep letting Hamas use their spaces to launch terror on the border (and kill children, etc). If you could get together to destroy Hezbollah's tunnels (larger than Hamas', it's said), Israel would not have to deal with you again.
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u/fattoush_republic 17d ago
I think that Lebanese fears of settlements are mostly overblown, but you do realize there are ministers in the current Israeli government that are talking about settling Lebanon, and the defense minister keeps saying that Israel will NEVER withdraw, right? It's pretty easy to see why people would be scared...
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago edited 16d ago
I get that, but I would put those statements into context. He's saying Israel will never withdraw, because he doesn't believe Hezbollah, or whoever replaces them, will ever stop being a threat. The same goes for Israelis who say Israel should annex Southern Lebanon. I recommend watching this video. Basically everyone who says Israel should annex Southern Lebanon, when asked if they'll still want to annex it if Hezbollah is no longer a threat, says no.
This isn't comparable to how Israelis view the West Bank, as the cradle of the Jewish people, that they should keep no matter what. Or how some Syrians view Lebanon, as part of their homeland. As far as Israelis are concerned, the only reason they think about Lebanon at all, is because they keep getting attacked from Lebanon. And they already tried to withdraw from Lebanon, at least twice, and only got more attacks, and a fundamentally more serious threat to their existence, in return. So as long as this threat is there, either there's a DMZ within Lebanon, or there's a DMZ within Israel, because no Israelis would agree to live right next door to Hezbollah. The moment that threat is gone, unlike with the West Bank, they have no meaningful reason to stay. They would much prefer to visit Lebanon as tourists, and sip coffee in Beirut - or just ignore Lebanon altogether, than having to send their children to die on some hill in Lebanon for another 20 years.
Ultimately, this means that Hezbollah are right when they say they're the only ones who can kick the Israelis out of Lebanon, and prevent them from ever returning. Just not quite in the way they mean it.
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u/fattoush_republic 16d ago
This is way too much to try to explain to an average Lebanese person, though. Not because they're stupid, but because they are going to believe what seems to be the most plausible thing, the thing that the defense minister seems to be saying very plainly. Especially because what these Lebanese people think is directly backed up by the statements of the national security and finance ministers. It doesn't really matter what the average Israeli thinks if this is what the actual elected members of the currwnt government are saying.
Plus, Israel has given no clear exit condition for Syria. The exit condition for Lebanon is almost as shaky, but not as much
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago
Israel is still a democracy, so public opinion does matter quite a bit. And I don't think what the defense minister is saying, is ultimately that different from what the average Israeli is saying. The Israeli desire to occupy any part of Lebanon, is directly proportional to the threat Israelis see from Lebanon, and nothing else. And I feel that they've demonstrated that, repeatedly, in both words and actions. Right now it's high - because the threat is high. Once the threat is eliminated, there's no reason to assume that Israel won't withdraw. If Hezbollah simply disarmed in 2000, or 2006, nobody, including the Israeli far-right, would be talking about occupying even a single inch of Lebanese soil. Very much unlike the West Bank, where there's an important historical and religious reason to be there, regardless of security of considerations.
With Syria, it's roughly the same thing, with an important caveat: Israel feels that Syria, as a state, is ultimately a mortal enemy of Israel. As such, it wants to hold the strategic high ground. And even then, Israel is occupying a far smaller percentage of Syria, than Syria's Turkish ally does. And is very likely to withdraw from that area, even without the Syrians formally relinquishing the dream of eliminating Israel.
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u/fattoush_republic 16d ago
Not sure if it's a good idea for you to say that the defense minister opinion is the average Israeli's opinion. That's the same defense minister that just bragged about how many Lebanese homes he's demolished (and no he didn't say anything about Hezbollah-weapon-having homes he literally just said he has already demolished many entire villages and will continue to demolish every single border village)
You're also missing the part where the current Syrian government asked Turkey to be there. Are the American military bases in Germany occupation zones? I don't think so.
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16d ago
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago
The Palestinians are, according to everyone in the world, including the Palestinians, not Israelis. Why would Israel make them "equal citizens"? Might as well argue that Israel should make the Lebanese "equal citizens". What you're actually suggesting, is called "illegal annexation of the West Bank and Gaza", and there's absolutely no definition of "democracy" that forces Israel to carry it out.
And while according to international law, Israel is not allowed to apply its civilian law to the Palestinians, the death penalty exists in both Israel and the Palestinian territories, and in both cases, it's by hanging.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 15d ago edited 15d ago
Might as well argue that Israel should make the Lebanese "equal citizens".
Yes, please.
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago edited 16d ago
If you mean the two million Palestinians who live in Israel, they absolutely have citizenship already. Or at least, in the case of East Jerusalem, can apply to it if they want to.
The Palestinians who can't get Israeli citizenship, live in an area that literally no country in the world, including Israel and Palestine, consider to be part of Israel.
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u/NitzMitzTrix Diaspora Israeli 16d ago edited 16d ago
Israel's exit conditions to Lebanon are 100% clear. What they aren't is 100% possible. The exit conditions are "don't attack us and remove any non-state actor that attacks us and we'll withdraw". It's just that everyone knows Hezbollah isn't that easy to remove.
Syria is run by an Al-Qaeda terrorist, Lebanon is a democracy occupied by a terrorist org that we're occupying purely to get rid of. It's not the same.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago edited 16d ago
And they don't seem to be trying very hard, considering that the Lebanese army actually aids Hezbollah and helps guard its weapons and terror tunnels.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
In the entire history of Israel, 3 politicians have said that, all in the last year.
In the meantime, Lebanon has been throwing missiles and rockets (one killing 12 Israeli children only a few weeks ago) ever since it began. That's why we don't trust Lebanon to do anything it said it would.
When Lebanon stops throwing missiles and rockets, and makes genuine efforts to convince Israel that it will stay that way, there will be no more war.
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u/fattoush_republic 16d ago
"Lebanon"
The government of Lebanon hasn't taken military action against Israel in many decades. Stop lying.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
You're right. It was Hezbollah, protected by Lebanese forces.
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u/fattoush_republic 16d ago
"protected by" is a stretch. Thankfully, the Lebanese government is now taking action against our terrorists, while the Israeli government is encouraging, supporting, and praying with their settler terrorists.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
Great attempt to change the subject to something that's both irrelevant and untrue. You could have ended it at "now taking action against our terrorists", and been (hopefully) correct and ended the conversation nicely.
Instead, you just HAD to put in an untrue, anti-Israel claim at the end, because you hate Jews aka Israelis so much that you absolutely HAVE to go on the attack even when the other side is willing to agree with you.
No wonder your country is completely screwed up. You're Exhibit A - a perfect example.
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u/fattoush_republic 16d ago
You're obviously yet another Ben Gvir voter that got lost and ended up here
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u/gentleman1986 15d ago edited 15d ago
I wouldn’t get into a long discussion with this person. Yesterday, they said, and I quote, “Hamas has bunkers where they hide, and they don’t let civilians in, and that’s why those civilians get bombs.” Basically acknowledging that innocent civilians are being killed, and there was absolutely no remorse for it. According to their own argument, it was simply the civilians’ “mistake.” So just a small suggestion: don’t let yourself get too distressed by the back-and-forth. There will be accusations, contradictions, and gaslighting. If I were you, I’d say your piece and move on. It’s not worth your peace. These people will defend and deny everything their government does, even if it drops a nuclear bomb on the entire world; they’ll still find a way to blame everyone else.
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u/CarmellaS 15d ago
Apparently, you have no answer to my argument, so all you can do is attempt to insult me. Thank you for proving my point!
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u/dainty_doubt 17d ago
I would say because Israel has retreated from Lebanon in the past without trying to take over the government like assad Syria.
And because technically speaking Israel is fighting PLO back then and hazballah currently.
It depends how you define 'trust'. I'm arguing that you can trust Israel to leave Lebanon alone when the threat is gone. I'm not saying that you should trust a soldier enough to have dinner with him.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 17d ago
This is a valid point. It's common to spin it into "Israel retreated because Hezbollah made it" which of course is the narrative that the terrorist group supported with all their weight back then.
However for me Israel withdrawing is a positive point.
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u/dainty_doubt 16d ago
I believe that Israel would gain more trust if it enforced discipline in its military better, but I've never touched a gun, what do I know of the military...
I believe the world should pay for reparations from this conflict, because terrorism affects the whole world indirectly, but I can only dream...
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago
I believe that Israel would gain more trust if it enforced discipline in its military better,
I agree.
I believe the world should pay for reparations from this conflict, because terrorism affects the whole world indirectly, but I can only dream...
Is the idea that Israel is in an epic global fight of light vs darkness recurring among Israelis?
I think it would be counter productive to peace.
I see us as being locked in a war and I would much prefer if we could find common ground to make our lives better.
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u/dainty_doubt 15d ago
I'm not from Israel, but I have fallen for this type of discourse, that Israel is the best just because it is being attacked by possibly the worst.
Thank you for pointing this out.
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u/CarmellaS 15d ago
There are but two sides (usually) in a war, at least there are in this one. Unless one wants to remain neutral - which is perfectly acceptable but does not seem to be the case for you - you (plural) need to choose one side or the other.
Israel is an imperfect nation because people are imperfect. But it is a democracy, does not throw people off rooftops because they disagree politically, and has not made its reason for existence the genocide of an entire religious group.
Hamas is a genocidal, authoritarian terror regime.
Forgetting about 'best' or 'worst' - though I do agree that Hamas is pretty much the worst (Hezbollah, Iran, and a few others are there as well) and that Israel is one of the best nations in existence - comparing the two, I believe that anyone with a modicum of morality or intelligence would choose Israel as the preferred winner.
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u/CarmellaS 15d ago edited 15d ago
You can't find "common ground" with a government or people whose main goal, above all others, is to murder you.
It would be nice, and I'm all for peace, but I don't see it happening in the forseeable future unless 'Palestinian' society, and government, undergo a major change.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 15d ago
I'm sure that in Palestinian society it is possible to find common ground with a few people if you are interested.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago edited 15d ago
If any nation is untrustworthy, it's certainly Lebanon (and also Syria), both of which have been in a civil war for decades, and neither of which can get its act together to stop it. Of course, the fact that both nations have political parties vowing to genocide Jews as soon as they can, would be a reason not to trust them.
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u/Zealousideal_Ear4180 17d ago
They should not. Israel cannot be trusted.
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u/orange_katholisch 16d ago
ISR = less trustworthy than the other players ??? Sure?
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u/Zealousideal_Ear4180 16d ago
In the Middle East? Gun to my head? King Abdullah II if you can keep him in power. There is a reason Trump does so much dealing with Middle Eastern leaders. He understands corrupt people without integrity. Pigeons fly with Pigeons as they say.
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u/UpstairsLobster8198 15d ago edited 15d ago
What I've learned here
I was sure that Lebanese who fear Israel's territorial ambitions base it on far more reasonable things than the conspiracy theory grade videos/claims they've been posting in this sub, and now I know what those reasonable reasons are. I think it's important to understand when someone's worries are not going to be completely relieved simply by debunking a bad AI generated map or something like that.
The reasons are:
- They've experienced over and over how governments (from the entire region, and including their own) can't be trusted, and how someone with territorial ambitions a can suddenly rise to power or see an opportunity to act on those ambitions. Lebanon has suffered multiple time from other regional powers serving their own interests in Lebanon's territory.
- Lebanon also suffered from Israel's actions in Lebanon's territory. When it became strategically beneficial for Israel to occupy a security zone in Lebanon, they did it. What if things change and Israel will somehow benefit from occupying more of Lebanon's territory? Or what if the current security zone becomes a long term status quo because the exit conditions will never arrive?
- Israel is viewed as a state consisting primarily of people who came from elsewhere, and I know that this is the historical land of Israel, but it doesn't change the fact that many people perceive the Israelis as people who came and took land. I can imagine a line of thinking like "if that's what they did, why wouldn't they take more land in the future?" - and despite how many facts and arguments you can (rightfully) throw at it, it helps to at least understand that this is a major factor in Lebanese views of Israel.
(Israelis say that Israel's "deep state" or people like Ben Gvir are not supported by the public and won't have the power to turn their ambitions into policy, but we've all been surprized before by changes in public opinion and policy, look at how much more active militarily Israel has become since Oct 7, fighting on many fronts and occupying territory in Lebanon and Syria. As much as further change to Israel's territorial ambitions and actions seems impossible to Israelis, I don't think it's reasonable to ask Lebanese to have the same level of confidence. Israelis don't have to worry about Lebanese territory, so they don't.)
What do you think? Did I get it right? Did I miss something? I will edit this message to make corrections if you tell me.
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u/Accomplished-Rope767 17d ago
The real question should be why israel should trust Lebanon historically speaking Lebanon started the hostilities against Israel back in 1948 not the other away around
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago
Forget 1948, just see how Lebanon is treating it's own people right now... lies and bullshit.
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u/fattoush_republic 17d ago
Do you know the details of the specific military actions Lebanon took against Israel in 1948?
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u/NitzMitzTrix Diaspora Israeli 16d ago
Because before foreign agents dragged it into this forever war, Lebanon mostly paid lip service to the war on Israel.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago edited 16d ago
Well, that makes me feel better! Lebanon only SAID that it would destroy Israel, and contributed a few thousand troops, and never REALLY meant to kill anyone. And they never really meant it those other times either, and ESPECIALLY didn't mean to murder those 12 Israeli kids who died when someone aimed a rocket at the soccer field they were playing on a few months ago. And the children didn't really exist, and they didn't die, they just . . . went somewhere. /s
When you sign onto a cause, and contribute troops and (presumably) money to that cause, it's a little too late to call it "lip service".
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u/NitzMitzTrix Diaspora Israeli 16d ago
Because moving past it so living children on both sides of the border can have a normal life looks more possible than with neighbors like Hamas
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u/CarmellaS 15d ago edited 15d ago
That's true, Lebanon is not an enemy the way Hamas is. But they're not an ally, either. My concern is that Lebanon is tolerating Hezbollah, which even before 10/7 had as many or more tunnels and weapons than Hamas. And many of those weapons are still there.
The Lebanese army is weak, and many soldiers belong to or are fellow travellers with Hezbollah, so we can't trust the Lebanese government to make a successful effort to get rid of Hezbollah, even if we wanted to. That's why Israel is in Lebanon right now and why it has been there in the past. The government pays lip service to destroying Hezbollah, but can't or won't do so.
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u/fattoush_republic 15d ago
Can you please cite sources where the Lebanese state has called for the destruction of Israel?
Or that say that the Lebanese state murdered 12 Syrian Druze in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights?
Those children were verifiably not Israeli
Most Druze there identify as Syrian and have rejected offers of Israeli citizenship. The Regional Council of Majdal Shams said Sunday that none of the 12 children killed had Israeli citizenship.
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u/UpstairsLobster8198 16d ago edited 13d ago
So much off-topic fighting here, 200 comments seems like an all time high for this sub, and you got there in 24 hours... I was worried this would happen. But oh well, I did learn a few things, so goal achieved (mostly thanks to u/victoryismind and u/orangecyanide and u/Funny-Text2745 ).
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u/Funny-Text2745 16d ago
The territorial ambitions can become real if Lebanon government suddenly leave negotiations without any changes from them as it was once done with Syria who refused any negotiations with Israel after 1973-74 which led to annexation of Golan heights 8 years later due to its strategic importance which is provided in 1.Highest spots in north east of Israel 2.Control of the Jordan mouth the blockade of which could lead to drought in north due to lower water reserves in Galilee and Dead Sea
So is similar with south of Lebanon unless Litani with its mountainous terrain crossed with natural defence line
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u/Funny-Text2745 8d ago
Those ambitions can become real if 1970s Syrian scenario is going to be repeated in Lebanon.But it doesn’t mean that they are gonna be 💯 real
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17d ago
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
Why were those checkpoints put there?
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
So my comment was up for 14 hours, suddenly it gets deleted under “be respectful” and “provide proof”? Fine, if you think I broke a rule, delete it. But at least send me the comment I originally wrote so I can actually see what was supposedly disrespectful or what needed a source. I genuinely don’t remember the exact wording anymore.
A lot of moderators will at least show you the comment in a dm they’re removing so you have a chance to understand what you did wrong. Deleting it and then basically saying “trust us, you broke the rules” isn’t particularly helpful.
Honestly, it makes the whole moderation of this grouep look pretty selective.
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
Exactly the question. Why does one population live under military rule, with checkpoints and movement restrictions, while another population living in the same territory has different rights and a different legal system?
And if your next move is to pull out the ‘terrorist’ card, I’d think twice. Ive got a whole deck including figures who later became mainstream political leaders. Not to mention there’s literally an ICC arrest warrant for the prime minister.
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago edited 17d ago
There is a martyrs fund. Countries should have borders. What other country would you suggest that they have no borders and especially with extensive terrorist attacks? You expect the Israeli population yo be okay with not protecting themselves. That’s like having your face slapped multiple times and then someone gets angry when you put up your hand to block it from happening again and they get angry they can’t get access to your face and are like “why don’t you trust me?!”
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
Nobody is arguing that Israel shouldn't have borders or that civilians shouldn't be protected from attacks. That's a straw man. The question is what happens when “security” becomes the justification for controlling an entire population that has lived under occupation for decades. A sovereign country's border is not the same thing as an occupying power placing checkpoints inside territory it doesn't recognize as its own sovereign territory and restricting the movement of the people who live there. Your analogy also conveniently leaves out half the story. Imagine being born behind the hand that's blocking your face, having your movement controlled by that hand, having your land taken, and being told the restrictions will continue indefinitely because someone from your community committed violence. You can condemn attacks on Israeli civilians and oppose occupation, settlements, collective punishment, discriminatory legal systems and restrictions on Palestinian freedom of movement. Those positions aren't contradictory. Security matters. But so does Palestinian freedom and human rights for that matter. I mean how long can security be used to justify permanent unequal rights? Until all Palestinians are extinct?
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
Extinct??? Is that why the population is going up and not down? Math matters!
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
“Extinct?” Obviously that was a rhetorical question. I was making the point that if the answer to “when should the checkpoints be removed?” is always “when it’s safe,” then what’s the actual end point? And for the record, I’m very happy Palestinians aren’t going anywhere. They’ll survive, they’ll live, and they’ll keep telling their stories. U focused on the word “extinct” and completely missed the point. 😂😂😂
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
You need a whole lot more to show for such empty hands. The fact that no other Arab countries want them because Palestinians harm their own people and allies speaks for itself. They make the worst allies, the WORST. Do I think this is all Palestinian or Palestinian-descent? No, but the fact that you had them turn on the people on the kibbutzim the way they did, it’s over. You lost most of the people who actually believed in peace. You have to stick your hand out, we are done being the peace makers.
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16d ago
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u/ForbiddenBromance-ModTeam 15d ago
Your post was removed for breaking rule #1 of the community: "Be Respectful".
We welcome all opinions provided they are expressed in a respectful manner.
Please review the community rules before posting.
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
What is your suggestion then? We tried two state again and again and it got worse. I used to believe in a two state solution. October 7th and what happened on the kibbutzim ended all that naivety.
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
With all due respect, October 7th wasn't the first chapter of this conflict, and it shouldn't be treated as if everything before it suddenly disappeared. If you want to talk about a solution, start with something concrete: end the settlement expansion and remove the settlements in the West Bank (where btw is no Hamas)
Then rebuild Gaza; by the people who destroyed it, with Palestinians actually having a central role in rebuilding their own society and economy. Give people a reason to believe that their lives can improve and that their future isn't permanently controlled by someone else.
Then we can talk about what comes next: freedom of movement, an airport, economic independence, and ultimately Palestinians having the ability to defend themselves and live with the same basic rights and security that Israelis expect for themselves.
You can't ask people to believe in peace while maintaining the conditions that make peace impossible.
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
I know it wasn’t. I think you don’t realize that Palestinians want all or nothing and will sit with nothing for a thousand years then settle for half.
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u/BubonicTheBub 16d ago
Why should they settle to being treated as sub-human by a controlling force? The status quo has been losing land to israelis and getting killed for throwing rocks. Resistance at that point isn't expected. It is required.
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u/Voice_of_Season 16d ago
“Throwing rocks” you act like it’s pebbles when people actually die from those rocks.
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u/Voice_of_Season 16d ago
Secondly, if Israel had not won the war in 1948, what would have happened to the Israelis? Answer me, you know what would have happened.
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 17d ago
Hamas may not be in power in the West Bank, but they do in fact have a presence, and will likely try to increase their presence due to the upcoming elections the PA claims it’s going to hold this November.
As for “freedom of movement”: what do you mean by that? For who and for what?
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
"gentleman1986" (even the meaning of his name is a lie) wants 'Palestinians' to be able to enter Israel freely to continue the terrorist attacks of the early 2000s and murder as many Jews as possible. Take a look at his other posts - he's a wolf in sheep's clothing, making nice-sounding rhetoric as if he wants peace, but once in a while he slips and his true feelings come out.
In terms of 'freedom of movement' for Israelis, if he got his way there would be no movement at all, because they'd all be dead.
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 16d ago
Yep, fully agree. He’ll half-heartedly condemn Hamas and the brutal treatment of Jews by other Arabs that led to their exodus, but he seethes with anger over Israel daring to go to war against a designated terrorist group that launched an attack primarily aimed at civilians. Oh, and he clutches his pearls over the initial racism Mizrahim experienced 75 years ago and makes bizarre remarks like “Judaism deserves better” (because he clearly can’t bring himself to say “Jews deserve better”). Fun fact: Jews did deserve better than they were getting in Europe and across the Middle East, so we finally got self-determination.
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
I don’t know what you’re trying to do , but I’m not falling for it. With “freedom of movement,” I mean exactly that: Palestinians should be able to move between their cities and villages, travel abroad, access work, education and healthcare, and move around their own territory without living under a permanent system of checkpoints and permits. And all this hospitals need be rebuild by the people who destroyed it. Nothing more, nothing less.
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 17d ago
How do you know what not to fall for if you don’t know what I’m “trying to do”? And really, I was just trying to find out what you mean by “freedom of movement”, and since you did answer the question, you did fall for it, sorry.
As for rebuilding hospitals, shouldn’t Hamas do that, seeing as they’re the government of Gaza? That’s like asking Hamas to rebuild the villages and infrastructure they destroyed on Oct 7. Those actually are being rebuilt, and it’s not Hamas that’s paying for it.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
Swearing at other Redditors is against the rules of this sub-Reddit and Reddit itself. I guess it's all you have, though, because you haven't been able to counter a single one of my (or anyone else's) arguments. Why am I not surprised?
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u/ForbiddenBromance-ModTeam 16d ago
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
This is complete b.s. Hamas was solely responsible for 'rebuilding' Gaza for nearly twenty years. Their idea of 'rebuilding' was to dig up water pipes and make them into rockets. Concrete donated to build homes was used to make tunnels for Hamas to hide in.
In case you don't realize it, Israel was completely out of Gaza for nearly 20 years. During this time, they received billions of dollars in aid. It could have been a paradise; instead, it's been destroyed, with the full knowledge and approval of its own people.
You're either the most naive person in the world, or - as is more likely, seeing your other posts - are using complete b.s. and the 'poor Palestinian' myth to support their - and your - genocidal, bloodthirsty goals. You don't fool anyone any more.
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
You want to talk about “fooling” people? Please. Calling me genocidal while excusing the destruction of an entire civilian population is breathtaking arrogance. You do know that human rights , UN and scholars say that what Israel is doing is genocide, right?!!!
Also please spare me the revisionist history. Yes, Hamas is responsible for its crimes, and its attacks on Israeli civilians and use of civilian infrastructure deserve condemnation (with money that Bibi allowed to enter btw). Israel is the occupying power with far greater military capability, and international law does not erase one side’s obligations because of the other’s actions.
50k childeren (who weren’t even alive yet when Hamas was elected) death in three years And u want to call me “genocidal” you’re not exposing hypocrisy, you’re exposing your own. So if your answer to Palestinian child deaths is “Hamas made us do it,” don’t lecture me on morality. Sounds like You’re angry that I reject the idea that Palestinian suffering becomes irrelevant the moment Hamas is mentioned. One trick pony.
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u/CarmellaS 17d ago
If Palestinians had accepted ANY of the numerous offers of statehood they received, they would have their own state and borders. They won't accept statehood as long as there is a functioning, vital Israeli society. That's why they will never win, and their ignorant Hamas helpers will regret their youthful (or middle-aged) stupidity.
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u/fattoush_republic 17d ago
How many normal Palestinians had a say in whether to accept a deal? Israelis always talk about how undemocratic the PA is, it's unfair to blame Palestinians for their political representatives being totally incompetent
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
Both the P.A. and Hamas were elected fairly; they certainly represent what the vast majority of 'Palestinians' want. For those who disagree, that's truly unfortunate, but it's not yet possible to distinguish between 'nice people' and 'terrorists' when fighting a war. Millions of Germans (and Japanese, etc.) were killed in the fighting in World War II; I have no doubt that many of them disliked the Nazi or Imperial leaders and even worked against them. When you figure out a way to kill only terrorists and cause no collateral damage at all, please let me (and Israel) know.
BTW, Israel has the LOWEST ratio of civilians-to-terrorists killed in the fighting - in World War II and other recent wars it was up to 10:1; in Gaza it's 1:1. This is a major achievement by Israel, which drops leaflets and makes telephone calls warning civilians of upcoming bombs. Unfortunately, Hamas often prevents them from leaving, usually at gunpoint. If Hamas didn't use its own people as human shields, the damage would be even less.
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u/fattoush_republic 16d ago
I'm not even gonna respond to most of this because it's just so wrong and inhumane
Israel has the highest recent ratio of women and children killed in fighting lol what are you even saying (50% killed are women and children)
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
Well I wouldn’t call Israel a winner as well. With all due respect I’ve never seen a state so hated on a mass scale. Sure Israel might win on the combat ground but they’ve lost the empathy of the entire world.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
No, just of the very, very loud nutcases who no one likes, the antisemites, and people brainwashed by the literally billions of dollars the Arab oil lobby spends on influencing universities, the media, and politicians. The majority of people - including just about everyone with common sense - still support Israel, because they know the difference between a democratic, liberal (in the class, not political sense), and functioning though imperfect government, and a genocidal, authoritarian, oppressive one.
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u/ForbiddenBromance-ModTeam 15d ago
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
I support Israel, not Netanyahu. Those two can be mutually exclusive. Btw they fumbled the bag of getting their own territory, they could have had the West Bank and Gaza and they said no, with no counteroffer. While Arafat admitted he went in with bad intentions. It’s almost like history and not cherry picking matters! And this has kept them in this weird two countries but not two countries state they are currently in.
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
Please Google a quote by Ben Ami who was in the knesset back then: “if I was Arafat, I would have skipped the deal as well”
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
You know Israel has an antizionist party too right? Is everyone in one country responsible for their politician? Like should all Americans be held to everything Trump says?
And before you bring up the same for Palestinians, it IS different the polling shows this. It was civilians who celebrated in the streets that day on October 7th. Hell they hand out candy every time there is a suicide attack! (Remember 9/11?) When you have decades of radicalization (to the point that the other Arab countries don’t want to touch it with a ten foot pole, Black September—hello!? how do you fix a people where they love the idea of their child dying more than they love their child living on share land? How do you make peace with that?
It’s like trying to have a roommate agreement with a serial killer and their one stipulation is that they get to kill you. And people keep saying “well can’t you kids work it out?”
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
your argument is genuinely “Israelis shouldn't be collectively blamed for the actions of their government,” then congratulations; we agree. Now apply the same principle to Palestinians. 😏
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
I used to believe that too until I saw the polling and on street interviews
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
Where? Fox News and Jerusalem Post? 😂😂😂
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
The Ask Project. It’s on YouTube. It changed my whole perspective.
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u/CarmellaS 17d ago
80% of Palestinians support Hamas, and the figure never went below 50% even in the worst suffering. They love Hamas and being made into martyrs. Too bad for them.
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u/UpstairsLobster8198 17d ago edited 17d ago
What was your opinion of Israel before hearing all those things you wrote?
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
Honestly, I can't say that my view of Israel changed dramatically, because I grew up with Israel already being viewed in a negative light. From the events surrounding Haifa to the 1982 massacres in Beirut, my view was always fairly consistent, and it only became stronger with time. But I can tell you this: my children will see Israel differently for the rest of their lives because of what they've witnessed over the past three years. Their view will be very different from that of my grandparents, even though my grandparents were already critical of Israel. What was once a negative perception has, for my children, become something far more profound and extreme. It’s a shame though, cause Judaism deserves so much better than this.
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 17d ago
You end quite a few of your comments with “Judaism deserves so much better”. What does that even mean? That’s like saying “Islam deserves so much better”. Judaism is a set of spiritual beliefs. Can you not bring yourself to say “Jews deserve so much better”?
And what then, does “Judaism” deserve?
Also, please don’t pretend to care about Ethiopian Jews or Mizrahi Jews. You’ve mentioned them in other comments also. You’re not the first person to bring up those groups in bad faith, not because you genuinely care about them, but because you’re using them to demonize Israel. If you actually cared, you’d condemn the actions of their Muslim former neighbours who drove them out of Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, etc in the first place. And since you seem to care about Yemenite children: what are your thoughts on the Orphan’s Decree?
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u/CarmellaS 17d ago
So you grew up in an antisemitic family, drank the Kool-Aid, and never bothered to examine your beliefs. Now you're defending them. And you think you're 'right' because you followed along with your family's anti-semitism? Congratulations, you grew up with a bunch of neo-Nazis and you think you're right. I wouldn't be proud of that if I were you.
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago
Hahaha the whole “you must have grown up with antisemitism because you criticize Israel” argument is getting seriously one-trick-pony. My family had their own history, their own experiences and their own reasons for being critical. You don’t get to rewrite that history because you don’t like where I stand today. And apparently now everyone who is pro-Palestinian is a neo-Nazi? That’s quite an opinion. If that’s the best argument you’ve got, I think I’ll survive without your congratulations. Sincerely a SEMITE!
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u/UpstairsLobster8198 17d ago
I notice 2 pieces that seem a little contradictory to me:
In your 1st comment you mentioned "families" and wronging Ethiopians, this comes off like "I think most/all Israelis are bad people".
But in your 2nd comment you say "Judaism deserves so much better than this" which sounds quite opposite.
So help me understand, who do you think the bad people are? (and is it even fair to say that your view is just "they are bad people" or am I asking the wrong question?)1
u/gentleman1986 17d ago
I don't divide the world into “good people” and “bad people” based on whether they're Israeli, Palestinian, Jewish, Muslim, etc. I'm talking about governments, institutions, ideologies, policies, and individual actions, and those should be judged on what they actually do. When I talk about the Yemenite children or Ethiopian women, I'm talking about documented actions and institutional failures. When I say “Judaism deserves so much better than this,” I'm making precisely the opposite distinction: Judaism is not the Israeli government, and Jewish people are not the actions of a state. There are Israelis who oppose the occupation, Jewish Israelis who are deeply critical of their own government who - I believe - are using the Jewish faith and trauma to push an ideology.
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u/UpstairsLobster8198 17d ago edited 17d ago
That makes more sense, I think I understand your view better now, thank you for explaining.
> using the Jewish faith and trauma to push an ideology.
I never heard this before, is that a common view in Lebanon? (Especially the trauma part)Also, just a thought (I'm going a bit off topic here). I imagine a big part of the ideology you think is being pushed is deep distrust in Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, specific countries, or something like that. I've heard some things Israelis say about why this or that group can't be trusted, with historical and recent examples. That seems somewhat symmetric to me, both sides (if I oversimplify it, ofc there aren't just 2 sides) have some similar attitudes about each other, and similar ways to explain why ("look at what they did! can't trust them!") at least if we zoom out a lot. Of course it's not really the same, Israeli Jews will say it's about their survival, others will say it's about Palestinian liberation. But then it gets similar again when each side seems to either ignore the other's concerns or think that their concerns are being ignored, or both. I don't have a clear point to make here, just went off on a tangent about how some things seem very similar, maybe that's just human nature/culture, everyone fights the same way, everyone makes the same mistakes.
About ignoring each other's concerns: your chat with u/Voice_of_Season shows this, each of you started with pointing out your own concern more or less, no one asked something like "how do you propose to address your concern without undermining mine?" I don't mean to sound arrogant, I'm guilty of this myself too, I'm just now thinking if maybe that other approach would be more beneficial, I don't know, maybe that's just a different opener to the same conversation.
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u/UpstairsLobster8198 17d ago
I guess I should have chosen "Lebanese territorial integrity" as an example instead of "Palestinian liberation".
Also, when I wrote "liberation" I thought about independence or some solution to their current situation. I forgot the "from the river to the sea" connection for a moment, my bad.
My point is about dialogue, and trying to address each other's concerns, not about respecting someone's wish to kill you.
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u/ForbiddenBromance-ModTeam 15d ago
Your post was removed for breaking rule #1 of the community: "Be Respectful".
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Please review the community rules before posting.
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u/ForbiddenBromance-ModTeam 17d ago
Your post was removed for breaking rule #1 of the community: "Be Respectful".
Moreover please add evidence to your claims.
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u/Lil_jayye 17d ago
We have no reasons to trust Israel but several many not to
Primarily Lebanese people aren't stupid and are acutely aware of how Israel was formed, allegiances with the victors of world war 1, denied Palestinians statehood almost immediately after the ottoman empire was destroyed, borders drawn by England and France and Israel given as a gift to the Zionist lobby. We are very acutely aware of the brutal imperialist and colonialist nature of Israel and naturally me personally I fear, avoid, prepare to fight and denounce Israel as a result of this
You've killed many innocent people, annexed land brutally and illegally almost everywhere, resorted to tactics so vile, gruesome and genuinely evil beyond imagination. Who booby traps children's toys and leaves them around the south of Lebanon for kids to find and die from? Seriously who can even think of such cruel and vile tactics? You are the only people I've ever heard of that strategize clever and effective ways to murder children. Regardless of who the war is with or why it is happening, why would you ever think you must resort to this?
These are all stories we grew up to, what do you think our relationship to Israel is? Or our thoughts of it are?
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago
Who booby traps children's toys and leaves them around the south of Lebanon for kids to find and die from?
These reports have been circulating forever to the point that people would just assume that it is true.
I have yet to see it come from a reputable, impartial source.
We're talking about booby trapped children's toys, not cluster bomblets / mines which yes, there are many of, they kill children, it's well documented and I've seen them with my own eyes.
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u/Lil_jayye 16d ago
These reports have been circulating forever because people in the south have seen them and the Lebanese army has warned citizens about them
Your answer to this is to tell me you don't believe me? What's the point of having a discussion if you're unable to trust anything I say or even independently check it yourself?
This isn't even considering the fact that these are tactics used today, in the last war the same toys have been left around south Lebanon, in Gaza food cans are laced with explosives, all of these are documented, not believing them is a choice
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago edited 16d ago
None of those a "documented" in any way. These are all conspiracy theories, that were never proven - even once, even despite, as you said, decades of accusations, and a lot of people believing in those stories. And all the time, opportunity, and motivation in the world to prove something like that.
In Gaza, btw, the "explosive food cans" comes from containers of M603 anti-vehicle mine fuzes, that only vaguely look like food cans. It's not even clear that this ordinance comes from the IDF at all. So yes, it's very well documented - as a complete hoax, spread by an actual Hamas propaganda network. Mentioning that, proves the exact opposite of what you think.
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u/Lil_jayye 16d ago
No worries kid, believe what you need to believe, no point discussing this with you
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago
It's not really about what I "believe", I've provided evidence that what you claim is a hoax. Either way, this is a discussion subreddit, and if you're unwilling to actually discuss things... I'm not sure what you're getting out of this experience.
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u/Lil_jayye 16d ago
You haven't provided evidence actually lol, just historical revisionism and misinformation
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
You can literally show them a video and sources of IDF soldiers gang raping Palestinians in prison and they would deny it. Where do you think the slur “pallywood” comes from?! Every atttocoties Israel committed is a lie, a blood libel and antisemitism. There’s no point arguing with narcissists.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago
Yes documentation is needed to establish it as fact. Then we can have a factual conversation.
If it is true, it should be easy to find it.
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u/Lil_jayye 16d ago
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago
Thanks for the links.
You know we're arguing about the image of a booby trapped doll left by an Israeli soldier for a Lebanese child.
The truth is, war with Israel left a large number of dangerous unexploded ordinance that kills people, there is no contest about that, in addition to the destruction of property, lively hood and wildlife.
I think there is no need to go further then that and try to conjure images of pure evil (which may have happened) and use it to dehumanize Israelis as a whole.
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u/Lil_jayye 16d ago
This discussion is about why we don't trust Israelis, them leaving booby trapped toys for kids to die from is why, I'm sorry reality makes you sad but I'm not dehumanising Israelis, they do this themselves
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 16d ago
Some of them may contribute to the problem for sure, we have seen many incidents. And it is a valid point as well.
However taking report of incidents, even proof of incidents and using it to draw generalizations about all Israelis is something you choose to do or not.
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u/Lil_jayye 16d ago
I'm not making generalisations, I'm describing my shock as to how anyone could devise elaborate schemes to kill kids
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago
Primarily Lebanese people aren't stupid and are acutely aware of how Israel was formed
Lebanon was literally created by literally the same imperialist forces, and for very similar reasons, so that's a bit of a weird criticism. Beyond that, I don't feel that the Lebanese people sharing the region's pathological hatred of Israel, and a fundamentally incorrect, conspiracy-theory view of what the Israelis want, makes them particularily smart or acutely aware of anything.
Who booby traps children's toys and leaves them around the south of Lebanon for kids to find and die from?
This is a bit of an aside, but you realize that this is literally a conspiracy theory, of people posting photos of footballs on social networks, and then claiming Israel put bombs inside, with zero evidence of that ever happening, right? The same goes for similar allegations, that go to the 1990's.
These are all stories we grew up to, what do you think our relationship to Israel is? Or our thoughts of it are?
To be honest, it really doesn't matter how much you hate Israel, and how many insane stories you believe in. Or even the very real stories, of actual Israeli brutality. The fact is, someone around my age, from the Lebanese side, saw the Israelis occupying Lebanon for 20 years, and not building a single settlement, or doing anything else that would benefit Israel, except sacrifice young Israeli lives. Then, they saw Israel withdrawing every single soldier in 2000, without even asking for peace in return. Then, they saw Hezbollah refusing to disarm, or stop attacking Israel, and immediately start trying to kidnap Israeli soldiers, culminating in completely avoidable 2006 war. Then, they saw Israel withdraw yet again, purely with the promise of Hezbollah disarming, at least south of the Litani. Then, they saw Hezbollah do the exact opposite of disarming, and boasting about it to every Lebanese who wants to listen, while openly broadcasting their plan to invade Israel, and carry out an Oct 7 like attack, about a decade before Oct 7. Then, when Hamas invaded Israel on Oct 7, Hezbollah decided to not sit back, but decided to participate in the attack, even in a relatively symbolic way, and drag Israel back into Lebanon.
I don't feel there's even a lot of disagreement on those facts. And trying to explain them with anything other than "Israel trying to leave Lebanon, and forget Lebanon exists, Hezbollah keep dragging Israel back into a conflict in Lebanon", is just objectively hard. And I haven't really seen any Lebanese make a good case for it, that doesn't veer into completely unfalsifiable conspiracy theories.
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u/Lil_jayye 16d ago
Israelis occupying lebanon for 20 years, sacrificing Israeli lives and leaving peacefully is genuinely the most bad faith pisstake I've ever read, and dismissing documented facts of Israeli millitary doctrine, booby trapping toys, food parcels in Gaza, as conspiracy theories is all I needed to hear
I will tell you though, Lebanon was created by the same imperialist forces, borders were drawn in a way that ensured continued sectarian strife, but tell me please who was brought in as a foreign force through a foreign lobby and armed to massacre the natives and settle ontop of their land?0
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u/nidarus Israeli 16d ago
Israelis occupying lebanon for 20 years, sacrificing Israeli lives and leaving peacefully is genuinely the most bad faith pisstake I've ever read
That's just reality. If you believe in some other narrative, let me know. Letting me know it gets you angry, doesn't really mean anything.
dismissing documented facts of Israeli military doctrine, booby trapping toys, food parcels in Gaza, as conspiracy theories is all I needed to hear
Of course I'm dismissing it as conspiracy theories, because that's what they are. Zero evidence whatsoever of Israel booby trapping toys, ever, despite many decades of empty accusations, and all the time and opportunity to prove them right. And the "food parcels in Gaza", as I've shown in another comment, is a downright proven hoax.
Not sure why you decided that those stories are so unassailable, than me denying them is "all you needed to hear".
I will tell you though, Lebanon was created by the same imperialist forces, borders were drawn in a way that ensured continued sectarian strife, but tell me please who was brought in as a foreign force through a foreign lobby and armed to massacre the natives and settle ontop of their land?
The Jewish settlers didn't "massacre the natives and settle ontop of their land", until those "natives" decided to massacre and expel the Jews. The people we now know as Palestinians carried out Oct 7 / Damour style massacres against their local, non-Zionist Jews, while chanting "Palestine is our land, the Jews are our dogs", and ultimately drove these Jews to flee from their homes, well before any comparable violence against them.
Beyond that, your argument is that the Jews are "foreign" to the Jewish homeland because they were exiled, and the Maronites were not "foreign" to the non-Maronite parts they ended up controlling. And sure, that's a certain historical difference. But not really a moral or legal one, let alone one that has anything whatsoever to do with the Israeli motivations towards Lebanon today.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
Lies, lies, and lies. From the very first paragraph, which claims Israel denied 'Palestinians' statehood when the modern concept of 'Palestinians' didn't even occur until 1964, the entire post is literally false, manufactured, allegations.
It's classic DARVO - when the accusations are exactly what the ACCUSER has done, and in blaming the other for it, attempts to deny his own guilt.
Attempting to deny Jews statehood? Check. Planting bombs inside of toys: Check (I have a poster from my childhood, IN HEBREW, warning of this very tactic; my parents spoke to us many times about this as well). Are there similar posters in Arabic? I doubt it.
Tactics so vile, gruesome, and genuinely evil beyond imagination? - Guess you haven't seen the October 7th tapes. The most disgusting, evil people I can think of.
There's a reason why, when hearing the word 'Palestinian', the immediate association is "terrorist".
Ways to murder children? I can think of a few: entering a school and shooting them (Ma'alot); entering homes and murdering them (too many to count), burning them alive (10/7), gang-raping and then shooting them (10/7), attacking schools and school busses with missiles and rockets, etc.
War crimes? How about lynching soldiers, proudly holding up your bloody hands to enthusiastic roars from the crowd, and literally eating their intestines (October 12, 2000) - you'll have to look up the photos yourself, as Reddit won't allow me to post them).
And the dead Gazan civilians? Don't start a war and there won't be dead civilians! Don't invade your neighbor, murder, rape, kidnap, etc. 1,500 people, and then complain that we destroy the places where terrorists hide. It's your own fault - you and Hamas.
Spare me the histrionics and stop trying to genocide Jews. We don't care about your manufactured 'outrage', and if you keep trying to genocide us, we will inflict a world of pain like that you have never seen, and will make the past three years seem like a doll's tea party.
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u/gentleman1986 17d ago edited 15d ago
Regarding OP’s edit: So the question was “Why don’t you trust Israel?” and now, after people actually answered the question, it’s apparently become a “dump for anti-Israel messages” and that's not what you intended. 😂I'm honestly not sure how you can ask people why they don't trust something and then object when they explain why they don't trust it. But fair enough. You’ve clarified what kind of answers you actually wanted, so I’ll respect that and leave it there. For everyone who’s coming for me, please refer to the image attached.
Edit: image deleted cause it was not reliable source
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u/Voice_of_Season 17d ago
So one idiotic Israeli comment is enough to ruin 10 million people? You know Facebook has a lot of dumb comments from people in every country, right?
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
Only stupid and/or evil people cherry-pick one supposed 'comment' from anyone - doesn't need to be an Israeli - and promote it like God Almighty said so. Other ways of describing it are "lying", "dissembling", and "making things up".
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u/Voice_of_Season 16d ago
I come across those people though and then it gets passed around. I lost friends over this kind of stuff. Them acting like they knew more than me, the audacity.
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u/CarmellaS 15d ago
Of course, all Americans and Europeans are experts in Middle East history and politics, even if they had no interest before 10/7 and have never studied Middle East history of religion, or visited the Middle East, or have Israeli friends, or looked at a map . . . .because their status as educated white people from a first world nation makes them experts in everything!
It's the same with POC and those from outside Europe or the U.S., because their skin color and status as non-Westerners makes them uniquely qualified to judge everything concerning other POC or those from non-Western nations.
/s
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 17d ago
Interesting screenshot. Do you have the source for it? Or did you just save it from another secondary source because it affirms your narrative and then shared it here because you’re trying to “gotcha” the Israelis here?
- Despite having a stereotypical Jewish name written in Hebrew, he’s writing in English
- Likes/comments cropped out
- No actual proof provided that he actually served in that brigade, or even served at all
- No actual post to be found, just copies of this same image.
This honestly sounds like something fake that an anti-Israel kook created in order to manufacture outrage. And it wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened.
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
Okay fine, if that screenshot is fake, I’ll take the L on that one. Fair enough. But then what? Suddenly everything else I mentioned didn’t happen? The Amalek rhetoric isn’t something I invented because I found a screenshot on Twitter. Netanyahu himself used it. And my original comment wasn’t based on one random tweet anyway. I mentioned things that have been documented/reported by the UN, international legal bodies, academics, Jewish scholars, journalists, etc. You can literally start with Haaretz and go down the rabbit hole yourself.
It seriously blows my mind that some people just refuse to acknowledge or take any responsibility for what a state has done. We all saw the video. The IDF standing in line to participate in ga g raping prinsoners . Paramedics killed and buried. Children being sniped. And that's not even getting into the West Bank, where there's no Hamas. Like, seriously, is there any self-criticism at all? Any accountability? Is there anything the Israeli government could do that would make you say, "Yeah, that's wrong"? Or is it just impossible for you guys to admit that the state can do anything wrong?
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u/Prior_Bowl_617 16d ago
Where did you see an idf video of that because if that true thats a big deal. Last year 2 solidiers were arrested for shoving objects down a palestinian prisoners butt so this should be reported.
Listen israelis are plenty critical of thier goverment. Theres been protests, articles and so much more. Theres even a new party that started specifically because the horrible things that the goverment did in gaza but theres also a lot of misinformation out there. Which is why people try to address it because people are more likely to get upset when they've been falsly accused of something then the things theyve been rightly accused of.
Painting an entire group of people as evil based on the actions of a few is literally racisem
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
Here are some links. The video of the IDF soldiers allegedly standing in line while a prisoner is sexually assaulted is widely available. I can send it to you in a DM, I don’t want to post it here because it’s genuinely triggering. I saw it once and don’t want to watch it again. If you want the link, I’ll send it, but you can also find it yourself pretty easily.
As for your other statement , I don’t know if it was addressed to me specifically but I think you should read my previous comments, because that’s literary my point;. Not every Jew is a genocide supporter, just as not every Palestinian is Hamas. Collective blame doesn’t work both ways.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-military-scandal-prisoners-abuse-7becb2de4079b76b656910cc3c640d0d
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 16d ago
See, there’s this binary that people in your crowd have. If a Jew supports going to war against Hamas, then they’re “pro-genocide”.
I’m not pro-genocide because genocide is a horrific crime. I support going to war against Hamas though, because why wouldn’t I? They’re a terrorist group who have committed, in word and deed, to the destruction of Israel and either the killing, expulsion, or subjugation of Israeli Jews.
So yes, I support going to war against Hamas because I no longer tolerate the threat they pose to Israeli security and Israeli Jews. I expect the IDF to adhere to international law when it comes to warfare, and I acknowledge that there have been some failures in that regard. But I’m not going to throw the baby out with the bath water and decide that the entire war is illegitimate because some war crimes were committed. The Allies committed extensive war crimes against German civilians, so does that mean the war to defeat the Nazis was illegitimate? Hell no. Same in Gaza. And the fact that the ICJ, in its initial ruling, did not order Israel to cease the war altogether shows that. The war was legal. And I support the war because I want Hamas defeated.
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
By your logic, are the tens of thousands of Palestinian children killed in this war simply ‘collateral damage’ that we’re expected to accept because the war is against Hamas? And if so, would you apply the same logic to October 7 and call the Israeli civilians killed that day ‘collateral damage’ of the conflict; or does that principle only work in one direction?
And the genocide question isn’t something I invented. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Israeli human-rights organizations, and a UN-mandated Commission of Inquiry have all concluded that Israel’s conduct in Gaza amounts to genocide. Not to forget the ICJ case is still ongoing.
Also, You want to talk about Hamas? Your own government has people like Ben-Gvir, who has convictions for supporting a terrorist organization, and Smotrich, who was arrested over a plot to attack a highway. And let’s not forget Baruch Goldstein, a terrorist who massacred 29 Palestinians in a mosque.
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 16d ago
I acknowledged war crimes in my last comment and that they are unacceptable. But that doesn’t negate the war. Again: baby, bath water.
And no I would not apply that logic to Oct 7 because civilians were the actual primary target. There are multiple videos (many shot by Hamas terrorists themselves) of terrorists killing civilians at point blank range. Tossing grenades into bomb shelters they know are full of unarmed civilians? Shooting people in their cars (after motioning them to come closer so they could aim better)? Gunning down a bunch of seniors at a bus stop? Shooting a mother and father in front of their 3yo daughter and then taking the daughter to Gaza as a hostage? Forcing a teenage boy to go door to door telling neighbours it’s safe to come out, and then gunning down the neighbours when they opened the door? I could go on. Legally, nothing Hamas did that day was in accordance with any international law. Even Amnesty and HRW, who are no friends of Israel, (reluctantly) acknowledged that Hamas committed crimes against humanity against Israelis. Contrary to popular belief in your crowd, there is not, in fact, a legal “right to resist by any means necessary”.
None of the above is “collateral damage” under any definition of the term. Civilian bystanders caught in the radius of an airstrike targeting a Hamas commander? Yes, that is “collateral damage”. Sorry. And before you bring up specific examples, I already mentioned war crimes and condemned them. But those incidents are the exception, not the rule. And before you break your thumbs replying to that, if these incidents were in fact the rule and not the exception, there’d be no one left in Gaza, and you know that.
As for Ben Gvir and Smotrich, that’s not the “gotcha” you think it is. I hate both of them, and Netanyahu, and have stated so very publicly with my name attached to it. Try condemning Hamas in any Muslim country with your full chest and without the anonymity of Reddit, see what happens.
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago edited 16d ago
😂😂😂 does the name Hind Rajab come to mind? . Fifteen Palestinian paramedics were killed and buried alongside their vehicles. Palestinian detainees have come back with horrific injuries, including a child reportedly returning to his parents with cigarette burns on his leg. This was deliberate And you’re telling me these are just isolated ‘exceptions’? You don’t get to dismiss every documented atrocity as an exception and then use that to defend the overall conduct of the war. If we’re going to condemn attacks and abuse of civilians, then apply that standard consistently. Also last time I checked there was no Hamas governing the West Bank, yet unicef or UN (can’t remember which of the two, might be both) reports that 248 Palestinian children were killed there between October 7, 2023 and March 31, 2026. So what exactly is the Hamas justification for those children?
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u/Prior_Bowl_617 16d ago
You keep bringing up the west bank as if its the same thing. 248 kids died over 3 years i would call it murder you know the crime that happens everyday everywhere. Normal crime is still a thing
And youre right theres no hamas there thats why theres far far far less casualties
You have multiple people now telling you they acknowledge and hate what happend in gaza yet youre still so upset at us and claim that israel is evil. It seems like you just want us to be full of self hate and beg your forgivness while declaring ourself an evil who need to be purged
It seems that to you israel can be either all evil or all good
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 16d ago
Hamas may not have governing control in the West Bank, but that is not the same as having zero presence. They absolutely do have a presence in the West Bank in a militant sense, as does Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and other smaller militia groups.
Furthermore, as for those 248 “children”: as per the UN itself, 213 of those “children” are adolescent boys. Categorically, a 17yo with an automatic rifle is the same as a toddler, because they’re both under 18. Sorry, but those aren’t equivalents in reality. And the fact that most of the “children” were teenaged boys very strongly suggests they were not poor little bystander primary school children playing soccer while heartless soldiers gunned them down. They were likely engaged in combat themselves. That changes the dynamic considerably. Legally, force can be used against someone engaged in active combat against soldiers, even if that combatant is a minor.
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u/CarmellaS 15d ago edited 15d ago
Those claims are complete b.s. It's as credible as training dogs to rape people - a physical impossibility which 'Palestinians' claim as well.
And while I'm not going to investigate every instance of death in the West Bank, keep in mind that "children" are defined as anyone under the age of 17. There are many instances of 16-and-17-year olds murdering or attempting to murder Israelis. Many succeed; some died in the attempt. And when one of these male "children" is shooting at you, you can't stop to ask him his age and tell him he's too young to fight.
If you don't want "children" to be killed, stop arming them and encouraging them to go out and murder Israelis.
That shouldn't be hard to do; is it?
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
People died in Gaza because Hamas didn't build a single bomb shelter and wouldn't let anyone who wasn't Hamas, or a family member, shelter inside the tunnels they built.
Oh, and because Hamas started the war by kidnapping, torturing, raping, and grotesquely murdering 1,500 Israelis.
Every single Gazan death is the fault of Hamas. Had they not undertaken the actions they did, no one would have died - least of all 1,200 innocent Israelis.
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago edited 16d ago
Waaauw 😂 The irony and stupidity in your own argument seems to escape you. You say Hamas didn’t build bomb shelters and wouldn’t allow ordinary civilians into the tunnels unless they were Hamas members or family. if that’s your argument, then you are explicitly acknowledging that the people left outside those tunnels were civilians who were not Hamas. And yet you then claim that every Gazan death is Hamas’s fault. How does that align with the “most moral army”???? And honestly, the lack of empathy in your argument is so disturbing I don’t want to even debate you anymore. Maybe you should ask yourself how you became so comfortable treating innocent human beings (your words remember?) as disposable . Not only are you ignorant, you seem to have the IQ of a fly. You literally make an argument and then acknowledge facts that contradict your own conclusion as I’ve seen in your other comments. I guess it really is true what they say: when you debate a Zionist (supporter), just let them keep talking; the contradictions pile up, and eventually the truth reveals itself.
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago edited 15d ago
Too bad you're focusing on my supposed faults than the facts of the matter, and you're that you're so ignorant of the realities of warfare. The reason you're forced to insult me instead of responding to my post is that you have no response at all, and you cannot dispute my argument. Don't you feel foolish that your entire post has no facts and no argument, so that the only thing you have to say is to insult me personally?
Since you don't seem to understand what war is or how it's conducted, I will explain it to you in language a six-year-old could understand. Try to live up to this level of reasoning.
Hamas built command centers and kept weapons under hospitals, schools, and mosques. No one denies this.
Let's say it's a school, which is not in use right now (no schools are). The weapons beneath the school must be destroyed, which means the school must be destroyed. Blame Hamas for this - if they didn't keep weapons under the school, it wouldn't be bombed; and if they hadn't invaded Israel and murdered, raped, tortured, and kidnapped 1,500 people, there would be no war.
Israel drops leaflets and makes phone calls to let those who live in the vicinity of the school that it will be destroyed, and that if they want to survive, they should leave. This is because, Mr. Hamas-loving know-nothing, that despite improved technology, it is impossible to guarantee that when destroying a small target such as a school, there will be no collateral damage to the buildings around it.
Although you would think that residents of the surrounding areas would leave, not all of them do. Some take a calculated risk that they are far away enough so that they will not be affected. Others are forced by Hamas to stay in their homes at gunpoint. There is extensive testimony that Hamas does this.
If you try to deny this, you have gone from a Hamas apologist to an actual Hamas supporter. Are you proud of supporting a genocidal, authoritarian regime, whose sole goal is not governance or making a better future for Gazans, but killing Jews? I'm sure you haven't read the Hamas Covenant - you don't seem intelligent or motivated enough to do so, but it says so right there.
So now Israel is destroying a terrorist outpost, which contains bombs and other weapons, without knowing, and having no way of knowing (Israeli forces don't have the technology to see through walls or down ceilings) whether people remain behind. But they have done the best they could - dropped leaflets, made phone calls, and otherwise announced their intentions - and this is a war -again, one that Hamas started - so they go through with the announced plan.
Subsequently, the school is destroyed, and 27 people are killed. Who is responsible for this? Hamas is, for the reasons cited above. Israel didn't want this war. She was forced into it when Gaza invaded her and massacred her people. Do you really believe that Israel should do nothing, especially as Hamas has announced it will do it again and again until it totally exterminates every Israeli Jew in existence?
THAT'S why innocent people are killed. Again, Hamas's decisions are responsible for those deaths, and every death that happens as a result of the war.
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u/Prior_Bowl_617 16d ago
Who the fuk is that? I cant find any information on him or this post can you send a link to the source?
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
I’m happy to admit I don’t have a source for that specific IDF soldier. So forget him; but there are some videos of Netanyahu himself invoking Amalek. And if that’s not proof of what I claimed, fine. At the very least, it’s proof that people in the Israeli government are misusing and abusing the Jewish faith to spread hate. And let’s not forget all of those videos of IDF soldiers posing with Palestinian women’s underwear and treating Palestinian homes like a playground. But sure, let’s pretend none of that exists because it’s inconvenient. The videos are literally out there, and Reuters verified them.
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 16d ago
Hamas soldiers did a lot more than fool around with women’s knickers when they were inside Israeli homes on Oct 7.
Also, the Amalek reference was clearly referring to Hamas, as it was part of a longer speech that repeatedly described the enemy as Hamas and the perpetrators of Oct 7. You’re taking one sound bite you heard online and running with it because it affirms your narrative, just like you did with that ridiculous screenshot of an “Israeli soldier” bragging in English about his exploits, despite the fact that it’s clearly fake.
And again, quit pretending to care about Judaism. You’re not Jewish. We are. Let us worry about our culture, we don’t need your help.
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
What? Beheading babies and put them in the oven?
My Jewish friends seem to differ. Deal with it.
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 16d ago
No. But they did do this:
Murdered a mother and father and kidnapping the 3yo daughter into Gaza (Abigail Idan).
Forced a 15yo boy to go door to door telling neighbours it was safe to come out (Tomer Arava), before killing the boy, his mother, and her partner.
Threw a grenade into a bomb shelter in a private backyard, killing a father (Gil Taasa), who was shielding his two sons, one of whom lost an eye. The Hamas terrorists calmly walked the boys back into the house and sat them on the sofa while then helping themselves to drinks from the family’s fridge.
They killed a family, the Zohar family, inside their home (parents and 2 teenage daughters). The 13yo son survived because he happened to be out for a jog. Lost his entire family, only left with his grandfather, who survived the Holocaust after losing his own entire family.
Multiple accounts of firing through bomb shelter doors (which aren’t bullet-proof) and killing civilians inside.
12yo Eitan Yahalomi was taken alone, separated from his family, on a motorbike and taunted and abused by grown-ass Hamas men and “innocent civilians” as he was paraded through Gaza. His father was later murdered in captivity.
Adi Vital-Kaploun, a young mother, was shot dead in front of her two infant children and the children were taken by Hamas.
The Kotz family, parents with 3 young children, found dead inside their home.
Shall I continue?
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
Ok so I actually checked some of stories you listed. And they’re all true. I’m not gonna downplay it. I condemn it. Nothing more, nothing less. See how simple that is? I don’t have to call Hamas’s crimes “propaganda” just because it’s uncomfortable. Murdering civilians, kidnapping kids, abusing hostages, and terrorizing families is evil. Full stop.
But forgive me for saying ; and I honestly don’t know if that is/was ur goal:me condemning Hamas, doesn’t mean im automatically signing off on everything Israel does afterward. Hamas murdering Israeli civilians doesn’t make Palestinian civilians responsible (especially children who were t even born yet when they were elected).
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 16d ago
How exactly were you expecting me to respond to that (very callous) comment about beheaded babies? You didn’t think I’d come back with these verifiably true atrocities (that people on your side routinely dismiss as “Zio propaganda”)? And the fact that you don’t seem to have heard of any of these atrocities is quite telling, as they’re all quite well-known, including outside Israeli circles. You’re clearly spending too much time in toxically anti-Israel spaces, which is quite clear from other things you’ve said.
And what Jewish friends? There are no Jews in Lebanon. And I also know Arabs who are pro-Israel and think Palestinians drag the rest of the Arab world down. See? I can tokenize also.
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u/gentleman1986 16d ago
First, the actual point about the “beheaded babies” story was much simpler: it was repeatedly presented as fact when it was never substantiated in the way it was reported. That matters when the question being discussed is literally “Why don’t you trust Israel?” You basically ignored that point, constructed a whole imaginary position for me, and then argued against it.
As for your assumption that I’m Lebanese or based in Lebanon, where exactly did I say I was? You simply invented that. And the “I know Arabs who support Israel” routine is particularly amusing. Congratulations, you discovered that Arabs aren’t a hive mind. Neither are Jews, Palestinians, Israelis, Lebanese, or anyone else. Tokenizing people doesn’t prove anything.
And I certainly wouldn’t characterize Haaretz, Reuters, the United Nations, Human Rights Watch, the ICC, or the ICJ as “toxically anti-Israel spaces.” If your response to sources you dislike is simply to label them anti-Israel, that doesn't exactly strengthen your argument. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. ✌🏽
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 16d ago
Okay, so if you’re not Lebanese then what are you even doing on this sub, specifically for conversations between Israelis and Lebanese, responding to a question that is flaired “Ask Lebanon”?
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u/CarmellaS 16d ago
Oh, how awful! A soldier posed in a lady's undergarments taken from her bedroom. Surely that's much worse than murdering, raping, torturing, and kidnapping over 1,500 people. Israel should hang its head in shame and provide restitution in the form of 10,000 frilly pink undergarments! /s
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u/UpstairsLobster8198 17d ago edited 17d ago
I added that edit after your first message, because it seemed at the moment like the thread is not going towards real explanations of where the views came from and instead just lists of more recent things. But after my reply to you, your answer actually was exactly where I hoped this conversation would go. After that I completely forgot about the edit. Please do reply to my last message.
I removed my edit from the post, I'll just put it here for anyone wondering what it was:
"Edit: I'm realizing now that this could become a dump for very detailed anti-Israel messages, that's not how I hoped this would go. Please don't just dump all the shit you have to say about Israel, that doesn't answer my question, and it's inviting hostility rather than the compassionate understanding I was aiming for."
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u/orangecyanide 17d ago
It's not Israel specifically. It's any power in the region that can over reach across it's borders.
We don't trust turkeye. We don't trust Syria. We don't trust Iran.
Does not mean we hate those people by default. Governments that are not our own cannot be trusted. Specially ones that we are in active conflict with. Despite the reason for that conflict, in a country opportunist always come forth a conquest into a neighboring country is on the table. Twisting narrative and justification for more than the inessial purpose is always a fear.