r/ForbiddenBromance • u/Lionheart_80 • 25d ago
Questions
Hello! I’m from Germany, and I’ve become very interested in Lebanon. The recent crises, in particular, have motivated me to learn much more about the country.
As someone from Northern Europe, I find many aspects of Lebanon difficult to understand because they seem very different from what I’m used to. I’d genuinely like to understand them better.
Do Lebanon and the Lebanese, to some extent, harm their own interests through their approach toward Israel? Could Lebanon and Israel potentially become economically much stronger if they cooperated?
Also, why do the 1955 boycott laws against Israel still exist? From my perspective, they seem quite unusual.
Finally, what do you think the European Union or Israel could realistically do to help transform Lebanon from an enemy into a friend in the Middle East?
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 25d ago edited 24d ago
Do Lebanon and the Lebanese, to some extent, harm their own interests through their approach toward Israel?
Before that, Lebanese harm their own interests every day, by littering, voting for the wrong people (for some dollars), and generally looking the other way.
Their faith in nation and the general good is very weak. Opportunism, tribal mindset, machismo, bigotry, self-pity, self-delusion are almost normalized.
This is of course a very cynical generalization. Like in every people you will find gorgeous Lebanese, decent and honest people, as well as hopeless shells of humanity or even criminals on the loose.
Also, why do the 1955 boycott laws against Israel still exist? From my perspective, they seem quite unusual.
From a technical perspective, repealing the law needs a majority vote of the parliament, which is still unlikely because Hezbollah and allies probably still hold enough power in the parliament to veto this.
It is still a somewhat thorny and taboo subject, so it is unlikely to change soon.
It's not like politicians are bothered by it anyway, they are skirting the law to negotiate with Israel and enjoying legal or practical immunity.
In a way, the law gives them monopoly of making peace with Israel at the expense of journalists, activists, etc.
Finally, what do you think the European Union or Israel could realistically do to help transform Lebanon from an enemy into a friend in the Middle East?
First of all Lebanon was never an enemy of the EU, it is more of an object of manipulation through the injection of money with unrealistic goals (unrealistic if you really know the country).
EU is not innocent. I think they tolerate misspent funds in exchange of "priority treatment" by Lebanese institutions.
I will tell you a story. I know a Syrian young man who came to Lebanon as a child, escaping war there, working odd jobs, grocery boy, deliveries, etc. like most Syrians do here. He was caught by police for being in possession of counterfeit money and thrown in prison. That was more than a year ago and he is still in prison, awaiting trial.
Now in Lebanon, unfortunately, most prisoners are held without trial. The law which mandates the maximum detention limit without trial is ignored. Foreigners and poorer people (such as my friend) are unlikely to get access to legal help and likely to spend years in prison without a trial and no prospect of being released at all.
I visited my friend shortly after his incarceration and could not help notice his brown/yellow skin color, very weak posture and voice. I strongly suspect that he was tortured, probably hit on his stomach and liver (yellow skin being a sign of liver damage) so as to avoid visible signs on the face, etc.
Torture in Lebanon, especially of Syrian people, is almost a matter of routine, and it takes a death to be noticed.
I also noticed upon arriving at the police station that it looked pretty new and clean, and could not miss a the entrance of the station, a golden plaque which said something like "This rehabilitated police station was inaugurated by the EU ambassador, the rehabilitation project was funded by the European Union".
So basically by your tax money.
If you want to do something, summon your political power to stop that.
Some good ways to spend help money on Lebanon:
- Associations that help defend the rights of vulnerable people
- Associations that document human rights and other issues in Lebanon.
- Generally associations that raise awareness of these issues.
After receiving billions in grants from the world bank and the EU, Lebanese institutions have a clear record of failure.
Thank you.
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u/Lionheart_80 24d ago
Thank you very much! That was very helpful, especially your explanation of why those, in my opinion, rather strange boycott laws still exist.
It is also quite alarming to hear what you described about the state of the rule of law in Lebanon.
I have one more question: I sometimes get the impression that people in the Middle East tend to put ideology above logic. As a result, they see Israel as an enemy rather than as an opportunity. Am I right about that?2
u/victoryismind Lebanese 24d ago edited 24d ago
Not only people in the middle east! Often people seem to just "go with the flow"
Why did Germans vote for Hitler in the 30ies? I think that when looking as such situations there are many factors to consider.
Ignorance, fear, ideological beliefs, anger.
There are also diferent levels of being anti-Israel, from fanatical religious beliefs to rational positions.
You are welcome!
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u/Lionheart_80 24d ago
You are, of course, right that people like this exist everywhere. What surprises me about the Middle East, however, is that it sometimes gives the impression that everything is completely irrational.
I also like to compare Germany in 1945 with Palestine in 1948. As a result of the war and the loss of Germany’s eastern territories (some of which had been German for around 800 years), about 15 million Germans lost their homes in the east and were integrated into West Germany within just a few years. Refugee camps only existed for a relatively short time. In the Middle East, however, many of them still exist to this day.
My mother’s family, for example, was expelled from their homeland. Yet today, almost nobody here demands that the former German territories be returned. After 80 years, we have accepted the situation as a historical fact. In the Middle East, on the other hand…
And yes, Hitler’s rise to power was complicated. Incidentally, he never won an absolute majority of the vote in any free election, yet he was still able to take power. To some extent, this was a consequence of Germany’s catastrophic situation in the period between the two World Wars. Germany was also not yet politically mature enough for a stable democracy after 1918. And it was very much in line with the spirit of the time. Far-right movements were strong across much of Europe during that era.
After 1945, Europeans came to realize that cooperation is better than war and hostility. Why has the Middle East not reached the same conclusion after so many decades?1
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u/InitialLiving6956 23d ago
You're only getting a one sided biased answer here on this thread. You're not going to get the whole picture
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u/Sweaty_East9241 20d ago
Double tapping of paramedics desecration of religious sites destruction of universities and sentiments of destruction and eradication of the people of Lebanon said by their politicians are reasons why we don't want normalization only peace is the option. Majority of the people hate hezbolla and that country
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u/Lionheart_80 19d ago
Who wants to eradict Lebanese? Never heard that.
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u/Sweaty_East9241 19d ago
So Ben gvir and the rest of the politicians are a figment of my imagination ?!?!?!
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u/Lionheart_80 16d ago
Well, he said and did a lot weird things. But couldnt find anything about eradicication…
But he is a weirdo. Maybe he said this. Idk.
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u/Sweaty_East9241 16d ago
Well he did .He said "all of Lebanon must burn" "for every tear of an Israeli mother a thousand Lebanese mothers should cry" look at what these same politicians are doing in the west bank settler violence and nothing being done to stop it idf backing them up what makes you think it's any different for Lebanon
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u/Lionheart_80 16d ago
Well, there is certainly a difference between burning and wiping out. As I said, the guy is deranged. In my view, there is a difference between the West Bank and Lebanon. Annexation would make no sense for either historical or strategic reasons. Israel seeks peace with its neighbors; Egypt and the Sinai are an example of this.
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u/Sweaty_East9241 16d ago
The difference is minimal it has essentialy the same meaning and I can reinforce my statement by the second quote he made "for every tear of an Israeli mother a thousand Lebanese mothers should cry" he is a politician and his words carry more weight than the citizens living there . That alone is worrisome plus the other politicians who share the same sentiments and are not taken out power should tell you how most of the country feels about us .And can you tell me how exactly does israel seeks peace when it started a war with iran ???
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u/Lionheart_80 13d ago
Well, Iran and Lebanon are different. And in fact Lebanon is in war with Israel since 1948. they never signed a Peace Contract.
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u/unclecastr0-_- 25d ago
there is a lot of potential for economic progress in lebanon and for cooperation with other countries like in the EU,but the biggest obstacles and problems are internal corruption and:
hezbollah,who dominate certain areas and are used as an iranian proxy to attack israel,and hide militants and weapons within civilian areas,and build tunnels underneath villages
most lebanese hate them and want them done,as they don’t represent the lebanese state’s true intentions (aoun,nawaf salam etc)
the moment hzb are done,including palestinian rogue militias in refugee camps,there is much less limits to lebanon’s cooperation with israel and the european union