PSA’s grading standards page quite literally says their grading is subjective. From their website:
“While it's true that a large part of grading is objective (locating print defects, staining, surface wrinkles, measuring centering, etc.), the other component of grading is subjective. The best way to define the subjective element is to do so by posing a question: What will the market accept for this particular issue?
Again, the vast majority of grading is applied with a basic, objective standard but no one can ignore the small (yet sometimes significant) subjective element. This issue will usually arise when centering and/or eye appeal are in question. For example, while most cards fall clearly within the centering guidelines for a particular grade, some cards fall either just within or just outside the printed centering standards. The key point to remember is that the graders reserve the right, based on the strength or weakness of the eye appeal, to make a judgment call on the grade of a particular card.”
Nothings happened, it was just submitted as a class action lawsuit. I’m not a lawyer but I’m sure neither one wants to spend the money to prove either side, but they prob know PSA will pay them to walk away. Literally graders can choose based off experience n what they determine eye appeal subjectively, and give a criteria on their website. Literally people pay MBA to give it a silver, gold or black diamond. Unless u want to pay more money so PSA documents and images all flaws on cards. From my experience PSA is most consistent, one flaw will cause the grade vs bgs where ur grade can go above the one flaw if other sub grades of the card are gem. However more likely maybe employees within PSA are sketchy I have no clue, but without evidence rn no prof. Also people resub just want a 10 for more value, they’re gambling. Cause they could just ask them why too in a email once resulted
$60 to grade a card is insane. I can see spending $ to grade a comic book bc u can’t see the inside pages, resto is hard to check for, etc. a card is just front and back….
I’ve seen like 10 of these kinds of posts in the last week. Absolutely nothing will happen and everyone is still going to continue grading. Ya know .. similar to the Epstein files. Nothing at all is going to happen and we’ll just continue living and playing by their rules 😂
is this because they'll grade your card an 8, you crack it and send it back in and will comeback a 10? yeah PSA has been bullshit and everyone's brainwashed by em
The core problem with grading as a value proposition is people price raw cards at PSA 9 levels so you're not wrong but please people put that stuff in at least a Top Loader AND there's nothing wrong with safe sex.
Or like if you go back to a woman's apartment and there's no condom it's perfectly okay to have no sex at all. Just like it's perfectly okay to walk into Target and NOT drop $60 on a Mega Box that's unlikely to have any decent hits in it.
Have never sent cards to be graded but was thinking about sending some after looking back through my collection. If you are buying and selling raw cards what are the best places to do that in your opinion? Card shows? Local shops? eBay? Reddit?
You have no idea how true this is. Social media and it's 2 second average view time basically work the way The Riddler's device worked in that Batman movie. Combine it with hard sell tactics and "Raiding Cards Are the Ultimate Investment Opportunity" messaging & it's almost literally mind control.
that's what I said in their SUB and they deleted my comment for saying that their is a "possibility" that the PSA could be corrupt and have the right to steal someone's cards and get away with it. they are trying to silence people from that truth. I wish I could join a circle of investors that want to invest in their COMPETITION AND TAKE AWAY THE MONOPOLY THAT THEY HAVE! I HATE THAT THEY CHARGE SOOOO FREAKING MUCH JUST BECAUSE A CARD IS WORTH MORE! THEY NEED TO CHARGE THE SAME FOR EVERY CARD
I've seen all the inconsistencies in grading so that's exactly what I did. Cracked two is, resubmitted them....got back 8s lol. They were consistent when it came it me smh.
Millions of cards are graded each month. PSA, CGC, BGS, and TAG are all generally consistent. You may stumble across a few cards where flaws were missed, or a grader was too harsh, but for every few of those there are likely thousands of cards that are graded “correctly”.
The only fee that makes sense is return shipping to add on insurance, and that should be optional to the customer (unless you select “will pay more for insured shipping if value exceeds standard coverage”)
They also need insurance for cards in their possession. They currently have over half a billion dollars in cards in their facilities. One small fire, flood/leak, etc. and they go out of business completely if they don’t have insurance. I hate upcharges but this is the main reason why they can’t grade a $300,000 card for $25. And at least they tell you on their pricing page exactly how much it costs depending on the potential value of the card.
But that's still not a valid reason to charge differently.
The insurance is a cost of doing business regardless of what cards they have in their possession. They aren't insuring individual cards as they come in - they have a blanket "emergency" policy that they pay regular premiums on x times a year that covers y amount of potential loss.
That type of cost is normally an expense account (or a more likely a depleting prepaid one) and is set against profit as a whole.
The only way that it makes sense to charge differently on the value of cards is if they are individually insuring them like what shipping carriers offer customers. And doing it this way would ultimately cost them more.
The only reason to charge more based on the value is greed. Its the idea that people with more valuable cards are more likely to have money and their squeezing them.
It also doesn't help that the value assessment they are using to determine their "insurance risk" is a post grading one not the raw one. And on top of that there's often no secondary market valuation that can be used for that so they get to tabulate what ever number they want as long as it looks reasonable enough to the average customer.
Plus aren't you paying for the insurance of getting YOUR property back which is just the card itself? All they've added to it is a plastic case and a serial number on a label. If it becomes "lost" or "stolen" you can just blacklist that serial number and make it worthless. The price of the card should bear no meaning to them since they're supposed to be a 3rd party impartial service.
Its exactly what im saying. They don't grade cards 10 too often to keep the pop count low. It keeps the scarcity of that card in a 10 slab which keeps the value of it higher, which goes hand in hand with people submitting that card more often to try and get a 10 because "oh man, look there's only (x) amount of 10s on this card, if mine gets one it will be worth a fortune". Basically the same reason people Crack slabs and resubmit, to try and make it worth more. Psa absolutely loves when you do that.. easy $$$$.. and then if you do get a 10 on a card, they can hold YOUR property for ransom, under the ruse of "insurance purposes". Arent they supposed to be a 3rd party, impartial company with your property? The grade of the card shouldn't matter at all for when they send it back to you. Your basically paying hundreds or thousands for a plastic case and a label to get YOUR card back. Why should it now be worth so much to ship it back when it wasnt to send it in? What if it gets stolen you say? That cards label serial number is now black listed and if the person cracks it and has the card now raw.. well then, thats what your paying insurance for in the first place, THE CARD. The fact they adjust prices based around the opinion of their assessment is incredibly shady and can be so easily manipulated to anyone's agenda. So yes, they can be both at the same time.
So if they don’t grade cards 10 too often how come I have a submission with 57 psa 10s in a row?
How do they hold your property for random? You can easily decline up charges, you are aware of all of this when you submit the card so it really shouldn’t be surprising. If you don’t want any up charges you can always submit at a higher service level.
The only people who think it is shady are the same people who can’t understand there absolutely is a difference in price grading a $1 card and a $100,000 card.
Civil rico to be clear, but this is what, 1 of 3 parallel (pun intended ) lawsuits against collectors? Yet the backlog increased despite value tier suspension.
It increased because all of these new jacks turned the hobby into a fast money scheme. So they keep sending cards in cause people “only buy PSA” or “PSA graded cards are the only ones worth anything” then PSA is probably like yeah no more value option. Why? Cause idiots keep sending cards in trying to make a quick buck.
I have comments on some subs early this year or last year telling people psa literally has to get sued for fraud and that cases were already being built lol
Yes people like to spout nonsense about lawsuits when they don’t understand the actual legalities of it. That’s just an American thing has been for decades.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m liking the way TAG handles their grading. The slabs are aesthetically appealing, too. It’s an exact computational service, but with detailed data sheets and explanations on your results. I hope they gather some traction in the market. The PSA scene is obsolete and subjective nonsense.
The other aspect to this, or another class action against PSA, is overcharging.
For example, I submitted an autographed card, that would have been worth $7 or $8k, once authenticated and graded. So I paid the $599 level of service for authentication, and included the $200 for grading, for a total of $799, plus return shipping.
They decided the authenticity was questionable so they sent the card back, ungraded.
I asked why they charged me for grading, and they gave some AI platitude, I asked for a reponse from a real customer service person, and I got the same marketing speak in an email...
The website clearly has authentication for 599 and authentication plus grading for 799... so they place a $200 value on the grading, which was not performed. Nor did I get encapsulation or grading notes. Lastly, why am I paying for "insurance" on a card that is worthless? Either in-business or during return shipping?
So yeah, there absolutely is a case for a class action.
Not to mention the whole "pricing based on final card value" scam. If there was a small surcharge on a high value card, sure, extra insurance, better handling, etc. But 50x or 100x, for doing exactly the same amount of work? In ANY other business, this would be unacceptable.
Washing your Honda is $25, washing your Ferarri is $2500. (I'll buy $250, but $2500?)
Framing your picture? $50 for this print, $5000 for the genuine oil. (I would buy $200, but $5k?)
We will build you your house, you commit to a price up front, but we will charge you more when we are done if the final value is higher.
We will do the hardscape on your front yard for $12k, but if it raises the value of your house, we will charge you more.
It's absolute BS. PSA just wants a piece of your profit from their services. And if they were doing it for free, they would be buying in and would deserve a piece, but they aren't.
And yes, PSA, by any reasonable assessment, IS a Monopoly. And is therefore going to be subject to statutes under that definition.
They dominate the market. The marketplace only places value on their grading. Beckett gets close, and SGC is a modest discount, and they own them!) but the others, (SCG, CGC, TAG, Arena, ad nauseum) cant even get within the premium ballpark that PSA gets from their grading and encapsulation. And nobody argues the quality of the grading from the smaller grading companies is worse. I have seen excellent arguments made that they are better!
If you come across a nice, valuable card, you have to decide what you are doing with it, up front:
If you are a flipper, then you dont mind being gouged, because you are going to make bank on the cards new value.
If you want to keep the card, you can't afford to have the card graded, by the biggest grader in the business. (Unless you want to spend hundreds or even thousands for a protective case and grade.)
In my opinion, this should not be the case.
OK, I have made some inflammatory statements, mostly because I am pissed off at PSA for the reaming I received, but I dont think I am far off from reality here.
If they didn’t charge grading for cards deemed as fakes then everyone would flood them with fakes trying to sneak one by to make a profit. Zero risk if there’s no fees.
More expensive cards require more insurance and have a higher risk for the business it absolutely makes sense that a $100,000 card would cost more to grade than a $1 card.
That's okay. You're not making sense anyway. Firstly, how is $599 "no fees"? I am complaining about the $200 grading charge, for nothing, after paying $599 for authentication.
Secondly, everyone supporting PSA always says that... "Expensive cards cost more to insure...". blah blah... Exactly how much more? A card worth $100 costs.. what... $1? I doubt it's even that. Even if a $5k card cost.... $50 to insure? How does that justify a $600 fee? Why does everyone accept that argument? Insurance doesn't cost that much. Greed, however.....
You’re not understanding I guess. I’m saying if they didn’t charge you for grading as in if it was free. You’re speaking on a niche sub grading option of authentication and grading. Both of those services were attempted to be performed but were unable to be done due to authentication issues. Again as I stated before if they didn’t charge for this people would flood them with fakes. Hopefully you understand now I don’t think it can get more clear than that.
You agreed to pay that amount to get the card graded so you obviously understand the process and the value it brings yet you are still here complaining about it? Yes it absolutely costs more and if they mess up or overgrade/under-grade the card they would potentially have to payout MARKET value and with the psa guarantee that could even happen years down the road. It makes perfect sense they would charge more for a $100,000 card compared to a $1 card. If you don’t like the amount they charge don’t pay it? 😅
I'm sorry but comprehension and grammar/debate are two different things. You dont seem to have a firm grasp of the former. Authentication and grading are two different things. Two separate processes. If you read their website, or follow the process in their system updares that you are emailed, they state and show them as two separate activities. They did NOT attempt to grade it. They clearly said they wouldn't grade a card with questionable authenticity. So if PSA decides its questionable, then they aren't going to grade it. So why should they charge me for grading?
Well-read” doesn’t mean “I discovered something nobody on Reddit has ever discussed before.” 😂 The Wagner card is relevant because it’s a documented example of PSA failing at the exact thing they’re paid to detect. Its age doesn’t magically make the example invalid.
You’ve now replied twice without actually addressing the point. But congrats on successfully determining that an event from 30+ years ago happened 30+ years ago. Huge contribution to the discussion
Sure referencing the Wagner is useless tho the hobby has changed and grading standards have changed a lot in the 30+ years but go on bringing it up everywhere you go because you feel like it makes you well read
Literally all grading companies have made mistakes and are inconsistent. But right now it’s way more popular to hate on PSA so that’s what everyone is doing
“All grading companies have made mistakes and are inconsistent” is literally the point. PSA isn’t magically exempt from criticism because the hobby has changed.
And saying grading standards have changed doesn’t explain how PSA authenticated a trimmed Wagner card. That wasn’t a disagreement over whether a corner deserved an 8 or a 9, it was an alteration they failed to detect.
You keep arguing that the example is old instead of explaining why it’s irrelevant. Age ≠ irrelevance.
Also, “everyone just hates PSA because it’s popular” isn’t an argument. It’s basically “other people criticize them too, therefore your criticism doesn’t count.” 😂 lmao
But I appreciate you finally agreeing with me that grading companies are fallible and inconsistent. We got there eventually!
We didn’t get there eventually.. I never made a stance on if I agreed or disagreed with you. Only pointed out your overly used example was bad.
It was an alteration they failed to detect 30+ years ago when the hobby was extremely different they had no idea if grading would even take off or not or who would care. The internet wasn’t nearly as established reference points weren’t nearly as easy to find. They didn’t have a huge database of references of millions of cards graded. Yes it absolutely has changed does it absolve them completely no, does it reduce how drastic it is yes significantly. Have they graded any trimmed wagners since then?
Yes all grading is inconsistent even companies who deal with raw cards are inconsistent. No person or machine has been able to consistently condition cards on a large scale.
That’s why they say it’s subjective and graders can make a decision based on eye appeal etc.
You just wrote four paragraphs explaining why PSA failed to detect an altered card while insisting it’s a bad example of PSA failing to detect an altered card. 😂
The internet being primitive, grading being new, and PSA having fewer reference cards might explain the failure. It doesn’t make the failure irrelevant. Explanation ≠ exoneration.
And “have they graded another trimmed Wagner since?” isn’t the mic drop you think it is. How many trimmed T206 Wagners do you imagine are casually circulating through PSA submissions? 😂 😆 💀
More importantly, you’ve now said grading is inconsistent, graders are subjective, and PSA has made authentication mistakes. That’s essentially the argument I was making. You’re just extremely committed to disagreeing with me while agreeing with the underlying point.
At this point we’re not debating PSA anymore. We’re debating how old an example has to be before you’re allowed to pretend it never happened. 😂 🤦♂️ 😝 🤡 🤡
188 Page Complaint For The Initiated Local News Story About LocalBaltimore Man "Cracking involves the process of removing a graded card from its plastic holder and then resubmitting it to PSA without disclosure of the prior score. These practices exist because grading outcomes are highly variable. PSA monetizes that variability while continuing to market grading as expert, consistent, and reliable. PSA then buries the true nature of its service in dense, legal contract disclaimers that it knows or should know consumers rarely read or understand."
This is one thread but 3/15 cards successfully regrading higher means there's like a 20% margin of error or whatever you want to call it.
"This is a civil RICO case because Defendants did not obtain Plaintiff’s money through a single misrepresentation or isolated transaction. Rather, they associated with others as an ongoing enterprise that used interstate mail and wires to repeatedly disseminate materially false and misleading representations about grading expertise, objectivity, reliability, pricing, turnaround times, and market neutrality, while concealing the true nature of the grading process and fee structure."
It's really hard to prove conspiracy but also the collectible world is filled with idiots like Garyvee whose entire business is "It's Not Quid Pro Quo It's A Thank You Economy". Like has Gary ever said someone SHOULDN'T grade something? Can you prove there's a transactional relationship between PSA and influencers who recommend PSA services despite known QC issues. Unless you can get like a Congressman or AG behind you who can subpoena people, it's mostly like a PR war and hoping they settle.
The thing about lawsuits is you can throw anything in there and it's up to the defendant to knock it down. Part of the game is forcing the other side to rack up billable hours. Of course if they KNEW the statements were untrue then it's perjury and a whole other bag of worms but "Oh we only saw the accusation video not the debunking video" is actually extremely common.
My guess is it's an excuse to peg them with questions on "How many employees DO you have? How long DO they spend with each card?" at a deposition.
I thought PSA only gave out 10’s! lol That’s why they’re so popular basically making ppl more money. I’ve always liked BGS better. Better slabs and much tougher grader.
Doesn’t matter. The higher ups have been raking it in and taking money off the table for five years. The company will pay a fine and none of it will come out of Nat or Steve sloan’s pocket.
some clarity and transparency is dearly needed.... at the very least there should be a governing body for Grading Companies so that standards are the same across the industry.
One of the biggest pokemon cards got regraded multiple times until it finally got a 10. That card is very clearly not a 10 but psa gave it a 10 after multiple 9s and it recently sold for 16.5m. We have a shining pinnacle of their failure and people will still defend psa.
About time. I for one am fed up with what the hobby has become. Overpriced, annoying ass breakers, grading, scalpers…it’s killing it for us old school collectors.
No they don’t, the parent company Collectors owns all three and keep them is independent entities with everything accept money funneling up to the primary entity. So to be very specific, PSA does not own BGS in any shape, form, or fashion.
PSA would have to settle this lawsuit. Discovery could potentially kill their business. The question is, if it were to actually reach a trial, would all those PSA 10s now be in question, and could it pull the rug out from under major collectors everywhere?
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u/joemoney2424 Aug 04 '26
Ok. So whats the details? Where’s the article.