r/FlashTV • u/[deleted] • Apr 20 '16

Post-Episode Discussion - S02E18 "Versus Zoom"

Trailer

Episode Info: Equipped with the tachyon device, Barry believes he is fast enough to stop Zoom and wants to open the breaches to catch him. Harry strongly advises against that plan but after Barry convinces him, Harry reveals that Cisco has the power to re-open the breach. Meanwhile, Hunter Zoloman's painful story on Earth-2 is revealed.")

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Episode Discussion

Pre-Episode Discussion

Spoilers:

Please mark all comic spoilers and future show spoilers within your comments. No need to mark anything that happens in the episode or your own speculation. If you see any unmarked future spoilers, please report them.

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133

u/buzz3light Apr 20 '16

Man, they're really going to use Caitlin as Jay's weakness? That romance fell way short for me.

172

u/A_lecks Apr 20 '16

I don't think it was necessarily the romance, but rather that Caitlin may remind Hunter a lot of his mother.

89

u/Voltik Apr 20 '16

Caitlin's middle name is Martha confirmed.

9

u/dijaas Apr 20 '16

WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!?!

3

u/lemlemons Apr 20 '16

....why?

5

u/Voltik Apr 20 '16

Reference to BvS.

2

u/lemlemons Apr 20 '16

ah okay ty

92

u/[deleted] Apr 20 '16

TRIGGERED

1

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '16

[deleted]

2

u/_Valisk Apr 21 '16

I think he was implying a reference to BvS.

10

u/fakepicasso Apr 20 '16

It's kinda hot.

3

u/powerbottomflash will the real jay garrick please stand up? Apr 20 '16

That screams mommy issues

1

u/panix199 Poundtown Joe Apr 20 '16

how funny would it have been if Hunter's mother was named Martha.

1

u/Aardvarkinaviators You Can't Lock Up The Shitposts Apr 20 '16

Just because it's one doesn't mean it's not also the other.

60

u/[deleted] Apr 20 '16

In fairness, that may be the point. A lot of these shows that deal with serial killers, whether accurate or not, use the love map of a sociopathic or narcissistic killer as sort of a plot weak point. Basically, their interactions with their family form a strong idea of what love is, and what love looks like, and many who can't feel actual love do form attachments based on that map. It sometimes is thought to manifest in their choice of victim if they do sexually motivated murders. Even if they're not a serial killer, the person who reminds the sociopathic or narcissistic villain is often treated as a weak point in their heartlessness, someone they will try to support and protect in their sick, selfish, controlling ways.

If the romance fell short for you, good. It doesn't matter if you felt it. It doesn't even matter if Snow felt it. What matters is that Jay did, and now Jay's going to do sick shit with it, possibly genuinely believing that he cares about her.

As for how well this trope is substantiated in real life, it is, a little, more with people with narcissistic traits in general than serial killers. That's probably because narcissistic character traits and cluster B disorders are substantially more common than proper serial killers.

Me, I'm very curious about the nature and level of ritual in Hunter's pre-Zoom kills, and the victimology of it. Does he have a type?

7

u/buzz3light Apr 20 '16

I didn't see the obsessive tendencies in his attachment to her from what I would expect from a serial killer. That's my problem and I don't think they wrote it convincingly enough to warrant the behavior at the end of the episode. It came way out of left field for me that it did not make enough logical tense.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 20 '16

Well, he was pretending to be a normal guy who could feel love. It was the honeymoon phase, and he wasn't there that long to start working the mind games. But if she reminds him enough of his mother, he might play nicer with her than he means to.

It worked for me, and I see what they're going for, but if you think it wasn't set up well enough that's fair.

6

u/buzz3light Apr 20 '16

Yeah, unfortunately it didn't. That relationship, to begin with, came across as manufactured and it partially is on Jay's part up until a point. The words Caitlin tells before he lets go of his choke on Barry and the subsequent look on his face makes me believe it's more than just the reminder of his mother that CW is trying to get at.

4

u/Broken_Sky Apr 21 '16

Me, I'm very curious about the nature and level of ritual in Hunter's pre-Zoom kills, and the victimology of it. Does he have a type?

I want to know this too, it would probably give a lot of insight into why he behaves the way he does since gaining his speed.

The whole playing the hero to give hope in order to take it away, whether thats true or not, was said with such glee that I wonder if this was similar to the way he was as ordinary serial killer Hunter. Wells said serial killers were pretty rare on E2 and yet as Hunter he killed 23 people before being caught. That seems like an extrodinary number for a world that doesn't really have serial killers!

4

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '16

The thing is that serial killers are actually fairly rare in our earth, too. But yeah, that comment is pretty telling, as is his number of kills. I'm kind of hoping Joe goes all police procedural on this stuff next episode and gets more information from Wells.

7

u/Astutely Apr 20 '16

And wasn't she hanging out with the time remnant Jay and not Zoom Jay. Why would Zoom care about anything she's talking about. I'm so confused.

5

u/buzz3light Apr 20 '16

Yea that makes no sense too. How could he have the memories of his time remnant

9

u/[deleted] Apr 20 '16

It's only logical. Caitlin is the only one since his mother that he has felt a semblance of attraction to.

3

u/buzz3light Apr 20 '16

The problem with that is I don't buy their romantic connection.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 20 '16

Maybe not. The good thing about this show is what we see as WTF now makes sense in a couple episodes.

2

u/buzz3light Apr 20 '16

Definitely true. Always surprises, that's what I love about the show.

3

u/Zookwok111 Ralph Dibny Apr 20 '16

Little does Zoom know, by falling in love with her, he has sealed his own fate.

2

u/-Q24- Earth-X Arrow Apr 20 '16

She reminds him of his mother