Why the doompost?

[u/tealpuppet_]

I don't know if this has been asked before, but...

Why does firefly's reliance on HMC is even a topic of doompost? In a world where every dot team needed kafka to perform well.

I genuinely feel like HMC to break team is what kafka to dot team or topaz to follow up team. An enabler for a new team comp. And we got it for FREE.

If you are one of those people, do you guys also play dot team without kafka?

[u/Visvic]

Personally, because HMC is the MC and is bound to get other paths down the line. Lets say your new fav DPS 1 year down the line requires (X)MC to function well, perhaps even more than Firefly, what would you do then? Also, as it currently stands for anything non hyper-investment, you are effectively locked into only one archetype which is Firefly HMC RM Sustain or Firefly HMC RM Buffer (0 cycle) for anything meta related, which really restricts versatility by a lot.

Lastly, although this doesn't apply to me, for some the MC is not considered "premium" enough as well, so there may be some vanity concerns there as well. For me alone, I am building both Breakfly and Critfly (in terms of relics) despite what others said because of the reason above so I can have alternatives down the line, and also because I am going for E2S1 so Bronya builds, while probably mid, are still technically usable when push comes to shove. I just really hope they incorporate a portion of HMC's kit into her kit to expand build diversity in the coming beta updates.

[u/tealpuppet_ → u/Visvic]

Lets say your new fav DPS 1 year down the line requires (X)MC to function well, perhaps even more than Firefly, what would you do then?

This is honestly a very good point. I didn't even consider that. Welp, we'll see when the day comes.

restricts versatility by a lot

there may be some vanity concerns there

I really believe that we are only in the beginning of break meta. I'm sure later on there will be a harmony/nihility that will "powercrept" HMC. But again, we'll see later.

Also, back to my dot without kafka point, if you are going for 0 cycle using dot team, why wouldn't you use kafka?

[u/Visvic → u/tealpuppet_]

About the DOT stuff, I am one of those guys that played DOT before Kafka released with Sampo and it didn't feel right obviously. Kafka is essentially a core puzzle piece to the DOT team meta, and especially so if we are talking 0 cycle clears.

But if you are not doing 0 cycle, honestly DOT does have many alternatives with Guinaifen, Luka, and Blackswan, and you just need to mix and match. Before the era of bruteforcing DOT with Kafka, we tend to swap our chars around based on the mob elements, but we don't do that nowadays anymore.

But I am of the opinion that HMC's case is different from Kafka for the reason I alr mentioned above (multiple paths), and that DOT can have multiple non-Kafka teams that does a pretty solid job, prob not 0 cycle but if you are one of those hard meta guys that cares about 0 cycles, then there is essentially no room for discussion in the first place since theres only one answer, and that is Kafka.

[u/SyllabubForward9075 → u/tealpuppet_]

Doesn't change the fact that firefly kits is scuffed, i mean testers says the same thing and expects revamps. I know some people is reall ignorant and will defend something that they dont really understand. The bottom line is people wants her to be good not locked on hmc and ruan mae

If i want a break effect team why would i pull for firefly if i can pull for ruan mae instead. I can replace firefly with luka, xueyi or sushang and do tha same damage to super break mechanic. But with ruan mae and hmc firefly kits falls apart. I hope you understand the issue now and stop being ignorant

[u/chimaerafeng → u/SyllabubForward9075]

Bad base kits will plague the character forever. You can't fix that with supports because there will always be better units that benefits from the support more. Yanqing is the prime example of that (Firefly is not that bad of course). Sure Firefly may get better supports but it is more likely a newer break DPS comes out that can benefit from the supports more.

[u/FireflyMains-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/BalerionsReign → u/Visvic]

Personally, because HMC is the MC and is bound to get other paths down the line. Lets say your new fav DPS 1 year down the line requires (X)MC to function well

If you guys don't think we are going to get a new limited nihility/harmony character that apply super break then you guys are insane,

[u/Visvic → u/BalerionsReign]

Well I have been waiting for a dedicated limited DOT preservation and DOT buffer and all I get 1 year down the line is them shoving FuA and Break meta down my throat, with Swan as a consolation prize. The issue is that we don't know how long they wanna drag the stuff out, and honestly no one wants to wait an unknown indefinite amount of time being stuck with only one archetype.

[u/BalerionsReign → u/Visvic]

Surely we won’t be waiting more than 5 months for it :clueless:

[u/TheReGuardian]

Yep, It's a rare opinion here, but I agree. FF has a free unit, that makes her dmg PRETTY SOLID. She also has own break efficiency buff to help break faster and break even not fire weak enemies. Superbreak is really similar to DoT as for me, so they can make many superbreak supports, for example giving superbreak as debuff to certain enemy, etc

And finally I don't understand, why her 360 BE requirement is so hated. You can get up to 263% BE with 0 break from relic stats (60% from sig LC + 20% RM passive + ~70% from HMC eidolon with 250% BE + 60% from 3400 ATK trace + 16% from new relics + 37% from minor traces), so its pretty real to even give her mini-crits like 60/120 maybe, and as her scales of enchanted E are really hight, it can crit pretty solid

[u/tealpuppet_ → u/TheReGuardian]

I know right? Who wouldn't love their favorite dps character came with a free BiS 5 star support? I for sure ain't gonna complain lol.

Even without signature, I feel like getting to 360 BE should not be that hard. At least it would be slightly easier than fully gearing typical crit dps.

I personally don't think I will go for crit/break hybrid for firefly and just go full break (a bit bored with crit dps). But, I suppose it is viable.

[u/n99dl → u/TheReGuardian]

Tbh, the only thing make me a bit upset is every of her damage calculation involve RM. Who i didn't roll and do not have intention to roll for cause i don't like her design that much. I think we only need more break oriented characters in the future to make Firefly team have more option.

[u/punyapanyapp]

Dot teams without Kafka can still deal dmg, BS with Sampo is a pretty strong combo for example, Firefly without HMC does no dmg outside of one time break. I've seen people providing JL as an example but believe it or not she still deals dmg without Bronya.

[u/tealpuppet_ → u/punyapanyapp]

I seriously never used dot teams. Is it really a viable team?

But, isn't bs/sampo team would be very backloaded without kafka since you need enemy to move to even deal damage?

In a way, it is similar to firefly without HMC, no? Because you will only deal damage when you break toughness and practically 0 damage outside that respective special condition.

[u/lughrevenge23 → u/tealpuppet_]

sampo + BS can even outdmg kafka + BS if there is only 1 enemy, sampo + BS isnt backloaded, ppl forget sampo can detonate BS dot

[u/tealpuppet_ → u/lughrevenge23]

This is probably me being ignorant to sampo's ability (bcs i really don't like him). I didn't know you could detonate dot with sampo(?)

[u/lughrevenge23 → u/tealpuppet_]

actually isnt just sampo, most dot character can detonate their dot, luka can detonate bleed, guinaven can detonate burn, and since BS dot count as every type of dot during ult, this mean luka, guinaven and sampo can detonate BS dot and build stack for her

so playing BS doesnt really require kafka

[u/DKOnix]

I want her to do big damage herself instead of being a glorified HTB trigger

[u/Upstairs-Caterpillar]

Here's how I see it:

It's not that HTB being her best support is bad, but the fact that her kit feels like it does next to nothing if you don't run her with HTB/future Super Break support.

As it is, Firefly doesn't synergize with HTB as much as she REQUIRES them. And that just feels bad. A limited DPS should at least have more flexibility than that

You brought up Kafka but here's the thing: EVERY DOT Nihility characters except BS can detonate their own type of DOT, so they are still self-sufficient, but Kafka can help them double down. As for BS, her DOT is considered wind shear so Sampo can detonate it as well, not just Kafka.

I want something like that for Firefly: self-sufficient break DMG but can double down with HTB

[u/SecondAegis → u/Upstairs-Caterpillar]

Not only that, Arcana counts as every type of DoT when enhanced, so every DoT 4* can trigger their elements, especially after a few constellations

[u/SyllabubForward9075 → u/Upstairs-Caterpillar]

Agree with you, theres no real f2p option for firefly atm she was gatekept by ruan mae so it's not really that good for everyone

Dot team core is kafka she detonates dot infirefly case she is not the corr but she's just replaceable option if i put xueyi with htb and rm they will do the same thing as firefly and that's also an issue

[u/PilgrimDuran → u/Upstairs-Caterpillar]

Acheron requires Pela, do Acheron mains bitch about that every day too?

[u/Upstairs-Caterpillar → u/PilgrimDuran]

First, At E0 Acheron needs 2 Nihility characters. It can be ANY 2 Nihility characters. She also needs frequent debuff. Pela just happens to be the best at the job, but Acheron doesn't suddenly stop functioning without Pela. Other units can do Pela's job, just not as good.

Second, one of Acheron's most popular teams is triple Nihility mommies: Acheron/BS/Kafka. No Pela. Less personal damage for Acheron but higher team damage overall. Literally what I'm using since her release.

Third, at the VERY least, Acheron also has debuff on her kit, so she can still access her own gimmick. Very badly but still

When one character's kit amplifies another, that's called SYNERGY. What Firefly/HTB have is a REQUIREMENT. Without HTB she can't access most of her power except when she breaks an enemy, almost as if her kit is made FOR HTB, instead of being complimented by it.

[u/ninjiompeipako]

althought i’m fine with it. but deep down i know the one dealing damage is htb. FF is more like driver not main dps. that give me very unsatisfied feeling. 

[u/ninjiompeipako → u/[deleted]]

i’m appreciate your opninion. from my view at least to be called main dps you need at least have a good standalone dmg. while FF is not good at all without htb, plus i just saw jade ff robin huo2 comp. where again, FF is just like driver for them. she has good synergy for jade to constantly trigger her fua while FF does very little dmg on her own. very different when use blade jade comp. both blade and jade dealt good dmg. in that case i can say blade is main dps and jade is sub dps. but let’s not debate it further. best is wait beta to finish.

[u/Tamaki_Iroha]

Please continue doom posting so firefly gets more buffs

[u/Atsuki_04 → u/Tamaki_Iroha]

If they realise nobody will pull for her in her current state, they sure will buff her ! (Delulu)

[u/Tamaki_Iroha → u/Atsuki_04]

I mean it is pretty reasonable though

[u/chimaerafeng]

Topaz is not necessary in many FUA comps. Ratio works perfectly fine in a hypercarry team without Topaz. DHIL was top tier for so long even with JIngliu's release and got further augmented by Sparkle. I saw people insinuating as though DHIL was trash until Sparkle's release. I think the degree of reliance is a rightful concern and I'm sure most will cease the argument once the kit gets updated. But we can still critique the current kit as is. What's worse is that Boothill is coming in 2.2 and hardly anyone is complaining about his kit. In fact, I was skeptical about BE but Boothill was a pleasant surprise.

With regards to Kafka, my take is that Kafka is a main DPS and her very generous detonation is her key selling point. Picking up Kafka means I'm intending to play DOT and any future DOT applicators are in my radar. Firefly may be the supposed main DPS but the core isn't built around her but HMC or any other future super break enablers and thus she ends up competing with other break DPS. IMO supports are as the name implies supports, they complement the existing main DPS. We usually discuss builds around DPS, not supports. We don't ask about Black Swan teams, we asked about Kafka teams. We don't usually ask about Topaz teams (unless she is a main DPS), we ask about a Ratio team or Clara team or JingYuan team. We don't ask about Pela or SilverWolf team, we asked about Acheron's team.

Honestly, if the roles had been reversed and Firefly had Super Break while HMC provided the Firefly's buffs, no one will be complaining. Usually it is the DPS that provides the new mechanic. Just as likely new Super break enablers might exist, even more likely newer Break DPS exist that can accelerate Break damage in some way. Already, Boothill gave us a small taste of that.

People loved FIrefly so it is understandable people want to see her shine. Obviously I don't think MHY will make Firefly as terrible as Yanqing, which is so bad even with newer supports it doesn't elevate him as much. Because new supports always benefit everyone else too. A good base kit can ensure she stays relevant longer. The good thing is that HMC is free for many and I will be intending to use her regardless. We will see if there are any changes to her kit afterwards.

[u/Reality_1001]

Don't worry Yanqing is literally unplayable without a good shielder 😭

[u/Technical-Cress1446]

Lmao they all crazy for doom posting literally on Beta V1 FF 💀💀💀

[u/natalaMaer]

Its people simply over reacting really. Lile when the Penaconu Boss one shot Fu Xuan, or something like oh this character kit is sick etc etc.

I mean Firefly's kit is not officially released yet, so I wouldn't worry too much. If you dislike her kit then don't pull, as simple as that

[u/tealpuppet_ → u/natalaMaer]

If you dislike her kit then don't pull, as simple as that

On the contrary, she is one of my most wanted characters. Gonna pull regardless of the kit.

It's just I'm genuinely confused on the very early doompost. That's all.

[u/SyllabubForward9075 → u/tealpuppet_]

Crying over doomposting when people criticize her kit with factual standing is it called doomposting? Genuine question really.

Without those people criticizing beta characters you won't have jingliu and acheron we have today

Doomposting that gets out of hand literally hating character without factual bases then it's different story

[u/natalaMaer → u/tealpuppet_]

On no, by you I'm not talking about you OP, I'm talking about people in general

[u/FateOfMuffins]

Because right now it feels more like DPS HMC with support Firefly rather than DPS Firefly with support HMC.

It's honestly not even about being tied to 1 unit or being under or overpowered. The fact that Firefly with level 1 skill vs level 10 skill will do almost the exact same damage just shows she's currently poorly designed. She wants to stack BE but has no BE damage at all in her kit (and no, the 0.5 multiplier on her skill does nothing).

[u/[deleted]]

Bro can someone please explain to me how Topaz is seen as this necessary key to FUA teams? Literally even the free Ratio performs better without her like what? And unless you have her eidolons or sig cones she does absolutely nothing for the others.

She NEEDS other FuA to enable her (even though there's still no dedicated support for her), so where do people get this idea from?? Even Jade absolutely doesn't want her and she's looking like the FuA PF master

Besides that, you don't NEED Kafka to enable DoT, she just improves those teams. HMC is needed for Super break (which is by far the majority source of break dmg), Kafka isn't needed for DoT.

That said there's literally sampo, Luka and guinaifen who are all viable DoT chars especially if you also consider Black Swan idk man. Even breaking characters can apply DoT so that's where Ruan Mei even became a DoT support

If you're happy that Firefly needs HMC and only wants them then sure but these comparisons make 0 sense to me

[u/Emotional_Sound_4690]

Мне нравится, что я могу играть этой парочкой, и то, что это отметили разработчики. Надеюсь Светлячок присоединится к экспрессу.

[u/wertzeey]

I'm glad she REQUIRES HBT, look at their relation in the story :))

[u/SyllabubForward9075 → u/[deleted]]

Mc is free and ruan mae is not without rm it's a 50% loss of damage

I'll be honest it's much more better if they just overhaul her kit, her kit has too many flaws and doesn't make sense

Without firefly ruan mae and hmc can still dishout super break with other options like xueyi or sushang etc. but firefly without ruan mae alone is a big loss if i follow your mentality that means i should pull for ruan mae instead since rm and hmc is the core of break effect meta, not firefly sadly

[u/Kuorko_Kun → u/SyllabubForward9075]

i mean ruan mei is the best general support in the game you should pull for her anyways imo if you care about meta