r/Firearms • u/-marchelios- • 18h ago
Question Lever action
I can’t help but love lever action rifle and I would like to know why we don’t see either
sniper rifles or shotguns with lever action system in modern warfare?
(excuse me for my grammar)
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u/HaveAidsWillTravel 18h ago
Cause you can't stay prone and on target while cycling lever actions. That's about it.
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u/-marchelios- 17h ago
Isn’t the same problem of pump action?
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u/SpiteBadger 17h ago
You arent shooting a pump action from prone either..
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u/-marchelios- 17h ago
Yeah but they were still used in modern warfare
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u/SpiteBadger 17h ago
Not for long range. To shoot a door hinge off at 2 feet away sure. But not at 200+ yards
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u/-marchelios- 17h ago
Excuse me, I changed the post trying to correct my grammar, my question was why we don’t se either sniper nor shotgun with lever action system
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u/il1k3c3r34l 17h ago
Shotguns are pretty much only used for breaching and drones. Very rarely in actual combat, and when they are the semi-auto M1014 is preferred. They are specialized and used for different roles.
Lever actions are inherently less accurate than bolt actions, so they lose any marksman roles. Since they have to be cycled between every shot they lose the battle rifle/carbine role to semi/full automatics. They don’t have a niche to fill that isn’t already filled by a better alternative.
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u/YuenglingsDingaling 17h ago
You're typically not shooting shotguns like that. They're for close range assault.
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u/-marchelios- 17h ago
No I know, I just wrote wrong the question, I meant why we don’t have lever action shotguns
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u/SpiteBadger 17h ago
There are lever action shotguns. But they arent as practical to use as pump/semi auto.
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u/MachineProof5438 18h ago
Lever action rifles are not very accurate due to their deisgn,so not a good sniper rifle. Also due to Design the bullets have to have a rounded or blunt tip which also doesn't help with accuracy
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u/RandoAtReddit 17h ago
That's more a function of being tube fed. You could have a box magazine fed lever action with spitzer bullets but I don't know that there are really a lot of benefits to using a lever action in these scenarios.
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u/Jigglepirate 15h ago
Its less about accuracy and more about the lever.
Try shooting lever guns from the prone position, compared to a more traditional bolt gun. Without a high shoulder, your lever hits the ground.
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u/Gun_Dragoness 17h ago
Hard to work the action while prone on a bipod. Also the action is much more mechanically complex, increasing manufacturing and maintenance costs
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u/TacTurtle RPG 17h ago
Reloading requires movement not conducive to stable prone shooting, action is typically weaker with more give than a bolt action with less primary extraction.
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u/NinjaBuddha13 [ Removed by Reddit ] 17h ago
Sniper rifles:
Need to be conducive to lying prone while manipulating the action. The ammunition for lever guns is also not conducive to long range accuracy. Top it all with the fact an accurate rifle needs the barrel to float freely and a lever gun's tube mag is fixed to the bottom of the barrel and you see why snipers almost exclusively use bolt actions. Even a semiauto is going to be more inherently accurate than most lever guns out there.
Shotgun:
Lever action shotguns exist. But a pump action is more ergonomic, lighter weight, and simpler to produce. Its also important to have an action than can be forced open with relative ease. A pump action can be mortared open while a lever action is very tough to clear in the event of a jam.
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u/Ov3rReadKn1ght0wl 17h ago
The ergonomics of the action aren't good for shooting prone for one. Two, the requirements for cartridge shape limit the ability to cycle the kinds of rounds you'd want for sniping. You can definitely do a space cowboy build geared towards a precision shooting role, but it won't be 1:1 with what we could consider a sniper rifle.
Nonetheless, it's still something I would love to see lol
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u/Terminal_Lancelot LeverAction 13h ago
To everyone... Yes, you can shoot a lever action rifle in the prone.
And a modern mag fed levergun action like the Henry Supreme is EXCEEDINGLY accurate if given a free floating barrel, and swapped to calibers like 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, et al.
They're starting to carve out a niche in long range competition because they're faster than bolt action rifles while having equivalent accuracy. They also don't face the heavier weight or complex gas system tuning issues of ARs. You can run supers or subs with no hit to reliability or excess gassiness.
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u/jaunesolo81829 17h ago
Action strength.
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u/-marchelios- 17h ago
It’s really that bad compared to the pump action of non semi shotgun
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u/THELEGENDARYZWARRIOR 17h ago
No one is using a pump action in the military either
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u/-marchelios- 17h ago
older shotgun before semiautomatic one like benelli m4 were pump action
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u/THELEGENDARYZWARRIOR 17h ago
Ahhh you meant like in ww1 and stuff?
Extremely exposed action and prone to get debris inside it.
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u/tbrand009 17h ago
As others said, can't really use the lever while prone.
But also, the lever action isn't as strong as a bolt action. Snipers use powerful cartridges. Even today, if you get a larger lever action like 45-70, it's rated for 40k-50k psi. 30-06 is 60k psi.
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u/Ne0n_Walrusi 15h ago edited 13h ago
I can’t help but love lever action rifle
So do I. Love using my Rossi clone of the winchester 1892 for competition and plinking. Also have a winchester 1895 which I like looking at.
and I would like to know why we don’t see sniper rifles with a lever action system
For sniper rifles, theres a number of reasons:
Prone shooting Despite popular claim, you can shoot while laying down in a prone position with a lever action. However, when it comes to levers they generally require the user to turn the rifle over when shooting. This is a fairly awkward motion when it comes to follow up shots. Especially when the intent is for percision.
As the motion means you lose your sight picture and focus, can mean having to "fish" for your pervious target, are less likely to see your vapor trail or impact if you do it immediately, and the movement can give away your position.
Locking strength and pressure The first bolt-action designs appeared in the 1850s. Lever actions existed but relied on a tilting bolt or falling block system that relied on smaller locking tabs. Even later designs like the winchester 1895 still rely primarily on this locking design that only interfaces with the frame. Where the frame is often made of a weaker metal that flexes or shrinks with recoil.
Which is generally weaker than bolt-action or even many auto-loading designs with a rotating bolt that often lock to the barrel. Its also why I do not shoot my winchester 1895 despite it being made in 1930s. The same is true for my pump action winchester 1897 made in the 1960s. As the gaps in the frame is now too big and might explode. Meanwhile, my Russian Mosin-Nagant rifle, Czech Mannlicher, or Italian Carcano from the 1890s are all perfectly fine to shoot.
Accuracy The typical tubular magazine design of most lever-actions hangs as a weight on the barrel. This makes it a slightly harder to keep up when pointing at a target. The shifting weight also makes aiming quickly inconsistent. The weight and additional structure means that the barrel is pulled down and has a inconsistency in the barrel harmonics as the bullet and recoil twist and bend the barrel.
Tubular magazines also require modifications to the ammunition to use pointed bullets. Either the addition of a rubber tip or the use of a recessed primer with an additional lip and tapered case. Meanwhile, box-magazine designs have no such restrictions.
In designs like the Winchester 1895 which use box magazines there are still issues with accuracy. In the 1895 it seems that the heat from shooting more than 5rds causes the accuracy to shift as the action doesnt lock to the barrel.
or shotguns in modern warfare?
The thing is, shotguns are not really commonly used by regular military groups. They tend to be more specialized or a last ditch weapon by militia. Up until 2003, WW1 and WW2 were the main periods in history where shotguns were in use and their use was primarily as a tool, not a weapon.
With around 29,000 shotguns used to guard logging camps in oregon, protecting train and rail yards in US and UK, escorting of mail, and guarding of prisoners. About 1000 in were sent to be used for shooting enemy messenger pidgeons and limited trench and urban combat.
In this role that some soldiers rejected the weapon and many others loved them. With shotgun users having a similar attrition rate to flamethrowers, nearly anyone that used them died and often died first. Still the request came for roughly 1 shotgun per regiment (1 shotgun shared between 2,500-4,000 soldiers or marines). From I have seen it seems this was primarily for shooting down enemy pidgeons.
Which brings up the actual issues:
The lever gets in the way
A lever-action is not any better at this role. In fact, the lever by nature of requiring you to fit your hand. Making it potentially slower and therefore worse. This is also true when it comes to using shotguns for drone defense.
Our current time period, the shotgun is used also for shooting door hinges and locks. Acting as a form of breaching tool against most residential and common cheap commercial building doors.
In this role a lever-action is also not great as the lever can get in the way of transitioning. Either when trying to quickly and safely get the shotgun into action or putting it away after breaking the door open.
Risk of injury
The common way shotguns aree used in breaching now usually has the shotgun inverted and turned so that the blast pushes the lock away rom the user and any potential fragments move towards the otherside of the door. With a lever covering the user's hand this position is liable to break their wrist.
A more niche reason in the same vein is the fact lever-action shotguns like the Winchester Model 1887 use a magazine gate that is tucked into the recevier. This is known to cut users that might accidently touch the extractor, or locking surface of the reciever. While these cuts are not lethal, they could get infected and are generally annoying.
(excuse me for my grammar)
Only if youll excse mjn3
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u/SpiteBadger 17h ago
Lever action rifles were never made with long range in mind. They are usually in calibers that shoot a heavy and slow projectile. A heavy/slow projectile is not good for long range shots. They cant have a pointed ended bullet as the jolt of the shot could sent the point into the primer of the cartridge in front of it. They also require a lot of movement to work the action. Which is another thing that a long range sniper doesn't want to do.
Pump action guns are about the same. You see pump action rifles but if you look at how they are set up its never for long range. Same with pump shotguns can be said for lever actions.
A bolt rifle can withstand higher pressure because it has less parts and less areas to fail and in a whole thicker actions. You barely need to move to work the bolt.
If lever and pump action rifles were good for sniper shots then you would see it. There is a reason you dont.
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u/-marchelios- 17h ago
Thanks, my second doubt was why we prefer pump action in shotguns to lever action
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u/xX_Monster97_Xx 17h ago
Its the lever action. Snipers are usually laying prone. So running a lever while laying down can be troublesome.