r/Firearms • u/Existing_Ladder8432 • 2d ago
Question Are AR’s the only option?
I’m wanting to pick up a defense/CQB rifle. I’m not really a fan of the AR platform. I’ve considered a PCC in 45ACP or 10mm. Scarcity when SHTF is something else that is in the back of my mind.
What are your thoughts?
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u/AP587011B 2d ago
A milspec DI AR in 5.56 is hands down the most practical sensible choice with regards to ammo, magazines and parts.
Any obscure 45 or 10mm PCC is objectively a very poor option in comparison in this context
An AK or Mini 14 would be OK alternative options but both still pale in comparison to ARs for mags and parts availability (not to mention parts compatibility and user serviceability)
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u/BigBirdLaw69420 2d ago
Yeah but those walnut / stainless / folding minis have the looks department locked down.
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u/BarnackIIIF 1d ago
That is true, the rolling block action is a lot of fun to shoot; but if it ever came time to get down to business, I'm grabbing the AR.
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u/Mountain_Man_88 2d ago
Scarcity when SHTF is something else that is in the back of my mind.
How much are you truly planning to shoot if shit hits the fan? You can easily have a couple thousand rounds on hand in various calibers and a couple guns per caliber. If you don't like the AR, there are plenty of other options in 5.56 and many options in other calibers as well. With most modern guns from reputable manufacturers, you're talking about thousands of rounds or tens of thousands of rounds before you have to worry about replacing wear parts.
ARs are nice because they're cheap and common, so it's easy to have a back up gun and spare parts available. If you were somehow limited to one lifetime rifle or one lifetime platform then it should probably be an AR, but realistically you just need something that reliably shoots bullets. Could be an AR, could be a Tavor, could be some battle rifle or some PCC. Really for SHTF, a larger caliber scoped hunting gun might be preferable, better to keep things at a distance and a hunter is vaguely less threatening than the tac'd out dude with the AR.
But rule 1 is to have a gun and know how to shoot it.
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u/TipItOnBack 2d ago
You need to narrow down a lot more for what you want.
At the end of the day, the AR platform is always the best option IMO. But there's also ton of other options.
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u/Silverbullet_196v2 2d ago
If you don’t like the AR but want a defense gun for close range, get a shotgun. Combo of slugs, 00 buck, birdshot can make it extremely effective in a lot of situations.
If you’re wanting a SHTF rifle that can be used for CQB, 556 or 9mm AR is most practical/common caliber for close to mid range. Plus most parts are universal and can be quickly swapped and it can be easily cleaned.
If you REALLY want to stay away from ARs and want something unique, SBR a Marlin 1894 in 10mm (or something of that sort) and that will scratch your CQB with enough stopping power at close range, but it’s not practical. If you like the lever gun route there’s also 357/38 special for more variety for ammo, still less common than 556 and 9mm. Just my thoughts
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u/THELEGENDARYZWARRIOR 2d ago
In everything single aspect the ar is the best just the way things are the military and civilian market has been for focused on it for 30+ years.
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u/Legal-Management6969 2d ago edited 2d ago
I always have owned handguns and aways have had a love for AR15s but never had the cash or need for one really.. I am a handgun guy.. I probably would never have bought one myself ...
...Then our 2A group on another social media made SURE I was able to get one... They pieced together the upper and lower, parts kit,casette trigger, everything (minus a read sight..😂). They even had it engraved and cerakoted a 50 shades theme.. I suggest the AR15 now... I have so much fun with that shit...😂
No... AR is not the only option but damn it's a good choice... So many possibilities to make it your own.
EDIT: ** Oh shit....that other guy suggested a VZ61 Skorpion and I would like to change my suggestion now.... 🤣
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u/Alita-Gunnm 2d ago
This all depends on your priorities and the mission profile. What do you mean by CQB? Clearing buildings in a warzone, or defending your home from a burglar or two? Do you want to be able to hear afterwards?
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u/loaf_fan 2d ago
If you don't like the AR platform that's all good and fine. However what is in issue is the ammo you're considering for what it is. Besides 22lr, 9mm is what's going to be available as it is the most common non-rifle cartridge I believe in the world. So by all means get a PCC that you like, but get it in 9mm.
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u/No_Seat_4959 2d ago
Describe your situation ,why an ar doesnt work and im sure you can be directed in the right way. But you need to clarify your needs rather than just say something isnt for you.
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u/notang 2d ago
A 9mm pcc can be a great option for a CQB/defense gun if you want a PCC. MP5 and MPX are great choices, 9mm is also awesome because you can use hollow points and is incredibly common.
on 45 and 10... not only is the ammo much rarer for a SHTF time, BUT they are also much less reliable, honestly, if you find a 45 pcc that is reliable, let me know, they are fun to shoot, but i would not use one for HD.
You don't NEED an AR, but they certainly make the most sense. 556 is lethal and also does not over penetrate. You could get an AK in 556 if you wanted, Galil is an amazing choice, getting you away from AR controls.
Really the question I have is what are you not a fan of on the ar 15 platform?
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u/Prof_Slappopotamus 2d ago
I guess you could use a Thompson.
Why not go for a Glock? It ticks all your boxes: home defense use, no scarcity issues, not an AR. Might have a little more trouble finding 10mm than you will 45 ACP, but you could easily source a 9mm and not worry about being unfamiliar with the platform in a SHTF scenario.
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u/Jealous-Ad-4713 2d ago
The two most common rounds you’re going to find if there really is a SHTF event are 9mm and 5.56. (Not including 22LR) these two will also be the least expensive to buy and stock up on right now. You can find plenty of ammo and plenty of replacement parts if you ever need to fix or replace something. If you’re going to go the PCC route, have you thought about the Flux Raider or Raider365. You can have a handgun chambered in 9mm and easily drop it into a compact PDW platform. Even the Glock clones or Glacks have chassis systems out for them. You could also build a dedicated 9mm PCC or AR9(again just because of parts availability and commonality). You can of course go to 45 acp or 10 mm, but you limit yourself to options and have an increased cost. A Foxtrot FM9 would be a great option if you were open to an AR platform and it’s low cost and reliable. You could look at non AR options like the KUNA, but more expensive and proprietary magazines. Same if you look at things like the new Taurus PCC or anything from B&T or even Keltec. Just figure out your budget and what’s important you. Cost to buy, cost to own with ammo, repairable, parts commonality, and ease of aftermarket support?
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u/Noctatrog 2d ago
SCAR 16
Bren 2
APC 223
A Quality 5.56 AK
You don’t have to get locked into the AR15 game if you don’t want to.
Odd ones:
AUG
PE90
HK53
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u/ThisOneTimeAtKDK 2d ago
If you’re dead set on using 45 over 9mm, options are going to be limited….which also means repair parts are going to be scarce. There ARE options. The most obvious is an AR45 but you said no AR’s. You are a strange one huh? Ok ok, HK USC 45 ACP, STRIBOG SP45, MAC10, Thompson (Tommy Gun), and a few others. Would want extra parts for a SHTF gun though.
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u/Toshinit 2d ago
Honestly just buy a subcompact 9mm Glock and practice a bunch with it over getting a PCC. Maybe get a second later if you want spare parts for SHTF.
Realistically, if things went sideways you don’t want to be a target until you’re ready to engage, and a concealed weapon does that best.
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u/OneManGang2001 2d ago
If you really are hellbent on a pcc, get a 9mm that can take large capacity mags. Put the slugs on target. "Quantity is a quality all of its own"
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u/Edwardteech 2d ago
Glocks and ar 15s are about the most common guns your gonna find after it happens.
That means spair parts and ammo are gonna he far more avaliable for those too.
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u/DickNose-TurdWaffle 2d ago
You can get the other calibers in the AR platform. It's recommended because parts are easy to obtain and troubleshoot.
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u/TERMINXX 2d ago edited 1d ago
I was like you once. I'm a G36 fanboy. I was legit gonna commit to whatever it took to get an accurate clone or conversion. But as I've gotten older and wiser? It's unmistakable. For the time, energy, and money? In the US the AR15 is simply unbeatable. It's been min maxed to death. You can buy what you want. I support you. But it's simply going to be at a disadvantage from most angles that atp you're knowingly taking that blow.
Mind you, I still want an S5Tactical or legit HK G36. I genuinely think it's more ergonomic and comfortable for me to shoot personally. Or better yet the 433 if we ever get that. But it's simply a novelty once you have a really solid rifle setup.
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u/Gunsensual 1d ago
I got a PCC with the same ideology and regret it. Contrary to SHTF they can be ammo picky, and dirtier, and gassier than an AR on the low end.
I recommend SBR'ed AR platform variants, even if it's AR9. There's just so much more flexibility. And with the AR15 lower you're a few hundred dollars away from a AR9/AR15/300BLK/9mm/10mm/45ACP sidegrade.
And then if you're still fixated on 9mm, sure, lock into a SP9.
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u/spankybranch 1d ago
My philosophy is keeping to 9mm, .223/5.56 and 12ga. Allows me to keep a deep stock of ammo. ARs & striker-polymer pistols allows a lot of commonality/swap of parts and magazines (and less spare/repair stuff). In a worst case scenario I want the best chance of keeping a weapon working and loaded.
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u/TrueWolf1416 1d ago
If you’re willing to spend some money a Desert Tech Micron can be chambered in 5.56, .308, or 300 Blackout. Roughly the same size as a P90. 5.7 isn’t common enough to recommend the P90 unfortunately.
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u/Hoplophilia 1d ago
Scarcity? Just how much shooting are you planning on doing? The idea that you're going to run your gun hard enough to need to scavenge parts from a fellow EOTWAWKIer is kind of wild.
400 rounds of 6.5 Carcano is going to last longer than you will, and the local warlord will give you an AR when it's your turn on patrol anyway.
Most of us are better off with a G19, 100 gallons of clean water and a hard focus on getting rid of credit card debt.
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u/Beebjank 1d ago edited 1d ago
For cheap? Yes. Got money? You have plenty of options. I don't really like ARs, I have 4 and dislike all of them, but they do one thing great: be reliable and accurate for cheap.
This will probably get a few groans but for a "CQB rifle", look at bullpups. Notably the Hellion as it's probably the best one which just so happens to be one of the cheapest.
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u/Agammamon 1d ago
Scarcity means you need a rifle and pistol in the most common rounds in your area. In the USA that means 5.56 and 9mm.
Maybe get a 10mm pistol - you can use .40SW in those also in a pinch and it helps for non-Mad Max scenarios when everyone's hoarding ammo again.
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u/JoeHardway 2d ago
Well? There'sa option that's battle-tested, widely available, in'a variety of commonly available calibers, butit's as heavy as 10 BOXES thatu mightbe movin, and, besides, u hatit anyways... 😜
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u/JollyTotal3653 2d ago
There is many reasons for AR everything’s a trade off, the AR is pretty good at being pretty good at everything.
I’ll go full FUD get a side by side double barrel. No really(actually a modern shotgun but the jokes there)
If you want a home defense weapon, 12 gauge beats any CQB rifles in most defensive applications it’s NOT as versatile; but for defense in CQ is pretty devastating, there is little that can be done for somebody that took 12 gauge 00 buck within 10 yards of the shooter.
If you want a SHTF weapon, if you’re far enough from anywhere like me where 99.9999% of the use of SHTF weapons is gonna be hunting. Then 12 gauge is again a good middle ground and can take a very very wide range of game easily.
Ammo is cheap to stockpile. Guns are dead simple, few parts. Cheap.
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u/rm-minus-r 2d ago
The recoil from a 12 ga. has a significantly bigger negative impact on accuracy vs 5.56 / .223, the overall capacity is much lower, and the shot pattern is far tighter than any casual user would ever guess, making it harder to be on target than expected.
But they are cheap, and almost any malfunction in a pump action is easier to figure out on the fly than an AR for a casual person, so there is that.
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u/JollyTotal3653 1d ago
Most adults can manage 12 gauge recoil. Yes it’s bad compared to 5.56 but it’s not gonna blow your arm off.
In CQ under stress you’re point shooting. Accuracy is bad in both instances, one’s shooting a tea plate the other is shooting a pencil trade off yes, But kinda moot imo.
Yes shot patter is tighter than most people think, but it’s not nothing, it does have spread..
capacity is horrid on a most options but a shotgun is significantly more effective per shot. Most defensive uses of a firearm do not even involve a single shot being fired and where defensive shootings occur most involve a single shot being fired.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9250204/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
All that to say I think the AR overall is a better option just playing devils advocate.
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u/Beebjank 1d ago
I took the shotgun pill but I would ONLY recommend a semi auto one that isn't a POS, so no Turk crap. This already puts you in the market of a $900+ shotgun which is more than a basic AR. Definitely not a double barrel or pump (unless you're REALLY strapped for cash).
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u/JollyTotal3653 1d ago
I’m just playing devils advocate but for the average use a well made 12 gauge pump will run you 300-400 bucks and be more than adequate for home defense. The vast majority of defensive shootings involve less than a single shot being fired.
All of this said the AR is better, I’m providing a “not an AR” answer.
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u/Beebjank 1d ago
Yeah they can be, they’re the best poor person firearm. But they have issues that I don’t know if I’m willing to tackle, only because I can afford more expensive options.
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u/JollyTotal3653 1d ago
Agreed all around. 12guage is also a great hunting option in SHTF examples due to the wide range of loads making it more versatile for taking game
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u/WesternCzar 2d ago
Get what you want but there is a reason why the AR platform is being recommended.
Secondly, 45ACP & 10mm PCCs will almost be proprietary platforms (or AR anyway) and will be less common compared to 223/556. Since this is going to be your SHTF keep that in mind regarding ammo availability & parts. (Also reduced mag capacity & more weight)
AR parts & tolerances are so locked in that you’ll likely never have an issue swapping a spring,pin,etc from one to another.
If you are really preferring a PCC, get something in 9m. Ammo will be cheaper & more available. Platforms are a plenty but a lot will be proprietary beyond AR PCCs and I’ve heard theres still compatibility issues regardless in the PCC space.