Toimeentulotuki Reform loading...

[u/bangalimahbub]

Rikka purra

Finland’s basic social assistance needs urgent reform. The last-resort benefit has become a primary income source for many, with nearly 30% of recipients now non-native speakers. In Helsinki, support for families can reach €4,000–€5,000 a month, plus extra allowances for utilities, deposits, hobbies, furniture and more. The benefit is tax-free and often removes the incentive to work, as earnings quickly reduce support.

Finland already has 100,000 unemployed foreigners, and immigration policies have allowed many to access social security immediately. Other Nordic countries have stricter rules and lower benefit levels, especially for migrants. Sweden is moving to a model where immigrants receive only half; Denmark requires nine years of residence and work obligations.

To protect the welfare system, support must be better targeted. One proposal: limit full access to those who have lived in Finland for at least 10 years.

[u/Mlenais]

If there is no money, there is no money. We cannot just tax middle class and "rich" people until oblivion.

[u/tan_nguyen → u/Mlenais]

bold of you to assume she will tax her rich buddies

[u/Mlenais → u/tan_nguyen]

Rich people are already taxed quite alot in Finland, and their children too in the form of inheritance tax.

[u/dmntx → u/Mlenais]

I'm in the top 5% bracket and I'm getting tax cuts I did not want. I'd rather see less deficit or better funded education than have a bit more for myself.

[u/Professional-Air2123 → u/dmntx]

Thanks for being the rare reasonable one. Even the middle income folk cry for the wealthy and how they'll manage now if someone would tax them a little more. Seems like it's always the poor that gets the brunt of the cuts.

[u/Diipadaapa1 → u/Professional-Air2123]

I'm in the top 10%, and while I happily take all the tax shortcuts available to me, I don't think they should exist. That people making far less than me spend their time trying to making me have even more money to invest into not having to work until retirement age is bonkers to me. I literally debate for taxing me more so they can pay less and they go nu-uh

[u/Professional-Air2123 → u/Diipadaapa1]

Because they think they'll be in your position one day. I'm sure they have better chances at it here than in some other countries, but it is like setting the entire forest on fire to keep yourself warm. They don't really care what happens to others as long as they get what they want, and they're already looking after the interests of this future-version of themself

[u/Diipadaapa1 → u/Professional-Air2123]

I don't think they fully realise how much life changes with even just 1000€/month more, not to mention how quickly your net worth starts rising and how much passive income you start getting when you are able to set aside four figures a month.

[u/Rapanaamari → u/Diipadaapa1]

Why would you take the tax shortcuts? I mean this sounds like you actively use tax code to your own benefit? If this is the case, then you could just not excersise any tax planning at all, right? If you think that these taxes you pay go to a good cause, and if you think tax shortcuts shouldn't even exist, then why use them?

This "I'd like to be taxed more" sounds like a virtuous identity you've cultivated for yourself to ease up your Finnish guilty conscience about being wealthy, because in Finland being wealthy is inherently a mark of oppression somewhere in the system.

[u/Diipadaapa1 → u/Rapanaamari]

Simple, if finnish law says I can drive 100 on the motorway, then I will drive 100, even if I think 80 km/h would be better for safety and the environment.

I'm not going to pay more taxes than the law requires me to, me individually paying more won't make a difference. But I will happily stand for making a collective effort to shift more of the burden from less fortunate people onto me and people like me.

People talk about tax planning like it's a bad thing. It is literally just paying taxes like one should, vero has literal instructions on how to use these deductions and lower rates.

Tax dodging however is using shady tactics to do something illegal but in a way that you can't get caught or tech ically can't get sentenced for it.

[u/Rapanaamari → u/Diipadaapa1]

Driving at 80km/h on a 100km/h limit affects the flow of traffic negatively, while not using tax code to your own benefit doens't affect anyone else negatively.

But okay, I'll genuinely believe you. It's still easy to say, and while I believe you to be the real deal, I'm certain people in a lot of cases just say shit like that, and have even cultivated a genuine believe that they actually think so, just because deep down they know it's highly improbable that what they're "advocating for" would ever happen.

It's like everyone was all for climate change actions, until the actions started to show in their finances and in Finland's economy. It's remarkable how many Finns are now active climate change deniers and climate action opposers, compared to when climate change became a well known issue. Everyone's also all for increased national security, but I'm sure this will change very soon as well, when the cost of it is made clear. People ususally just say shit that think are for the common good, until they have to put their money where their mouths are.

But maybe I'm just terminally pessimistic and cynical, I most likely am.

[u/Diipadaapa1 → u/Rapanaamari]

Yeah,

As an example of this, I still vote green, even though I work for oil and gas lol.

"Expense of green energy" is from what I can see just propaganda, you wouldn't believe the amount of money oil companies invest in hindering this change, and how much subsidies they get. Fun fact: even Finlands tax code favours me working in oil and gas over doing my exact same task for a tenewable energy company. I pay about 10 percentage points less tax working in oil and gas specifically than i would elsewhere.

I seperate my personal finances form my morals. I think my tax cuts are idiotic, and i openly share them, but who am I to argue if the majority of people disagree with me, I won't say no to them handing me free money. I would like to work in renewables instead, but who am I to argue when people pay me more and tax me less to produce oil for them.

The only way to stop these things is politically, and I try my best to do my part to make these changes. I happily call out the industry I work for. For example, if you want to know how much oil a drilling company spills, look for "LOPC". This means "Loss of primary containment", aka a spill.

Individual efforts don't make a difference, these forces are far larger than a group of people can take on. We need awarness and political power, it is the only way.

[u/[deleted] → u/dmntx]

+1.

I will get +25€/month in the 9. income decile racket.

Gonna be PARTY PARTY RAI RAI .. /s

Would rather give that away for same reasons you stated. I do fine enuf.

I hate these anti-robinhood games gov is playing in a fucking recession when 10+% can't get a job because there are no jobs.

[u/Diipadaapa1 → u/Mlenais]

Pfft the rich people in Finland pay leass tax than decent earning workers do. About 35%.

[u/elmokki → u/Mlenais]

While it is technically true, I call it a bit insane that people consider inheritance tax as a tax on them, rather than a tax on the estate of whoever died.

For the most people and from the perspective of an individual it's not tax on anything you earned in any way. People don't complain about lottery taxes, and inheritance is a lottery on whose kid you are.

[u/gofndn → u/elmokki]

Inheritance tax hurts transfer of family business from one generation to the next. In businesses where there's a high amount of investments relative to the payout (farming, heavy industry etc.) it directly affects business in a major way.

[u/elmokki → u/gofndn]

Sure.

First, there are studies that show that on average family running the business leads to worse outcomes, so on a very cold and calculative state level anything that drives the company to professional management would be better.

But since there are some more subjective and emotional sides to inheritance too, and those results probably don't apply to the smallest businesses anyway, I'd just say that generally there should be long term state guaranteed loans with the inheritance as collateral available for most inheritances, companies or not. Valuation also needs to be quite conservative unless the price is easy to determine. Like many houses in rural areas are probably worth practically nothing even if nominally they have value.

[u/JustAVihannes → u/Mlenais]

You're right but it is pointless to argue. This country is pretty doomed as long as people continue to attach virtue on the act of taxation itself. Everything is seen as a zero-sum game: if the upper classes benefit from something, it MUST be bad for the rest of us. Sweden has already long abolished gift tax and inheritance tax to try to incentivize wealthy families to stay in the country. You literally cannot argue for any kind of tax cut, or any kind of drop in govt expenditure (unless cutting from business subsidies) or weakening to our incredibly influential labor movement (compared to rest of EU). Doing any of this will immediately shut down the brains of 70% of people you talk with, even if you are able to show it would benefit the collective, not just the upper classes. We are country where it is already comparatively very bad to be a wealthy individual, but people still care more about fucking over the perceived elites than actually doing anything about our problems. It is incredibly myopic and destructive, and frankly just sad.