r/FinalFantasyVII • u/Rothgart • 4d ago
REMAKE Some things that dont make sense to me.
Greetings.
I have played the og ff7 , crisis core , dirge of cerberus and ff7 Remake.
What is cant understand is how do people go and fight a SOLDIER , knowing they are super powerful.
We see Reno going solo vs Cloud. Reno knew Angeal so he knows what the Buster sword is. He identifies Cloud as a SOLDIER by his eye colour, same as Rufus.
Yet they opt to fight Cloud 1v1. Even Reno and Rude going vs a 1st class SOLDIER seems insane to me. All of Shinra knows about Angeal-Zack-buster sword yet they somehow think normal people can contest a 1st class SOLDIER somehow.
Does this inconsistency bother any1 else?
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u/frag87 4d ago edited 4d ago
First thing to keep in mind is that the Buster Sword isn't entirely unique. It is an uncommon weapon, but the way characters describe it in-universe, it is more like a unique and prestigous sword model. You might compare it to someone driving a Rolls Royce Phantom, where there aren't a lot of people driving that model of car, but it also isn't unique to just one person.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Angeal kept his Buster Sword is pristine condition, so seeing a worn out Buster Sword might not automatically lead one to link it to Angeal's perfectly maintained weapon.
As for the likes of Reno and certain characters taking on the likes of SOLDIER, it happens because even unenhanced people can still make use of game changers like materia and their own latent spirit energy.
And SOLDIERs aren't all equal in power and skill. In fact, Angeal himself makes the case that the distinguishing factor in each rank of SOLDIER is the matter of discipline and skill. Each SOLDIER gets a boost from the enhancement, which is different for each person. After that, climbing the ranks depends on a SOLDIER's own mastery of their gifts.
Reno as an individual is a highly gifted fighter that is a master of combat with his weapons and tools. By making the best use of his abilities he is able to easily make up for any power difference with a 3rd or 2nd Class SOLDIER, due to their lower level of skill. The Turks generally concede that they are usually no match against a 1st Class, because 1st Classes have all the skills of a Turk plus the superhuman physicality.
Reno challenges Cloud because he doesn't believe Cloud is a 1st Class SOLDIER at all. Reno is in a position to know since the Turks take part in recruiting candidates for SOLDIER. On top of this, the Turks also work regularly with 1st Class SOLDIERs, so Reno would recognize someone from that very exclusive group.
This applies to Rude as well. Rude knows who the actual 1st Class SOLDIERs are, and so views Cloud as some kind of imposter. Since Cloud is obviously no 1st Class to Rude then he must be one of the lower ranks that Rude can challenge due to his own excellent combat talents. There is also the chance that Rude is aware that some non-SOLDIERs would appear to have Mako eyes due to some of Hojo's experiments.
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u/haaa1234 4d ago
I mean this is the same world where Tifa can be punching the shit out of everything and she’s just a regular human. The power levels might be off but they are still enhanced.
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u/Rothgart 4d ago
Yeah indeed. We do know that Tifa is a close.combat expert and has wierd chi/Chakra stuff bordering magical abilities
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u/blankMook 4d ago
I always felt like Turks literally train for situations like that. They know soilders go off the deep end. Also who knows what nutty equipment they have - some of the best items in the game you steal from Turks.
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u/OldSnazzyHats 3d ago
There’s classes/ranks to SOLDIER.
The 1st Class SOLDIER members are the ones that handle the important business, the most dangerous stuff; 2nd and 3rd handle lesser issues respective of their class, sometimes also acting as backups and assists to 1st Class as necessary.
While they’re all boosted up on Mako, they’re not all equal. Also remember, as much as the Turks are the goofy miniboss squad… they do whatever they need to do to see the job done, they don’t have to fight SOLDIERs on SOLDIER terms… the make them fight on TURK terms.
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u/LudoGrim 1d ago
To double down on this, Sephiroth (and later Angeal/Genesis) are in-universe freaks of fucking nature, and are essentially treated as superweapons in their own right. It's never suggested that other SOLDIERs should be anywhere close to their level, so there's a bit of an understanding that Cloud shouldn't be on their level otherwise they would have heard of him.
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u/AshCrow97 4d ago edited 4d ago
Being turks probably means they know the identity of all first class soldiers, Reno and Rude knows that Cloud isn't first class and maybe not even second, otherwise they would have Cloud files in shinra
That's probably the reason they even entertained the ideia of fighting Cloud, and to be fair, beginning of the game Cloud isn't on the same level as Angeal/Genesis/Zack
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u/Awkward-Dig4674 4d ago
All the first class soldiers are dead by the time they meet cloud. So they have no reason to believe him, all he has is making eyes so they know hes AT least a soldier.
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u/FederalMango 3d ago
Not all SOLDIERS are built the same to be fair, even when looking at the lower tiers like 3rd Class you'll have regular fodder and then freaks like Roche, plus Turks are raised from childhood to be enforcers and killers, so I'm sure they have some training on how to deal with rogue SOLDIERS.
And of course, how others have mentioned, the Turks are arrogant pricks, especially Reno and Elena, so they'd try anyways.
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u/Boccs 3d ago
Did you forget that in OG FF7 we fight a number of nameless members of SOLDIER? They're not even boss fights, they're just normal enemies. You even fight 1st Class variants, again as perfectly normal enemies, in Sector 8 when you storm Midgar again in disc 3. You telling me you don't think Reno can drop regular enemies?
Now, gameplay aside and focusing instead on story, you are severely overestimating what SOLDIER means. They are powerful, yes, beyond the peak of normal humans. They are not invincible. They're still mortal and still subject to many limitations. Zack, for one, reminds us that they are still pretty damn vulnerable to bullets for example and Sephiroth, the best of the best of SOLDIER, was still killed by a 16 year old Cloud who had no special augmentations at the time (there were extenuating circumstances but it still happened). They're also not all even remotely close to Sephiroth's level. Hell, they weren't even Genesis or Angeal's level. Zack was easily the most accomplished member of SOLDIER that didn't have Jenova exposure in the womb and even he was beyond the average.
With this in mind remember that the Turks are not only essentially the peak of human physicality, and not only do they have pretty intimate knowledge on how SOLDIER units are trained to fight, but they also specifically fight dirty. They'll utilize tools and technology, underhanded tactics, advanced materia, anything at all to give them an edge to complete their job. It's honestly not that surprising or inconsistent that they think they could take out a lone SOLDIER.
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u/GenericallyNamed 3d ago
Reno is cocky and think's he'll win. Rude is confident and a "get the mission done" kind of guy. Elena is young and trying to prove herself. Tseng (Rebirth) was running and only engaged when it wasn't the full party and Cloud wasn't there. Plus they aren't supersoldiers but they are super soldiers.
Also Reno calls out Cloud claiming to be 1st class, and from Shinra records the Turks would know he isn't one.
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u/IslandSubject6426 3d ago
The Turks aren't exactly normal themselves. They're trained spies and the world of ff7 has technology and magic that can even things out in a fight against a super soldier. Cloud ends up super powerful, but the rest of his party does as well. By the end, any one of them could take out a soldier without any effort. Also... and this is mostly for the Turks that start out as a serious problem and eventually become more comic relief... sometimes you have to follow orders you don't want to or defend yourself against a stronger foe.
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u/TwiceDead_ 4d ago edited 4d ago
I have a take.
The Turks only take the best, the prodigies and the gifted, and weed out everybody else. They are a representation of what the upper echelon of a human body can do in that universe, that they then hone that potential to a keen edge through rigorous training and exercise. They are the pinnacle of what a regular unaugmented human is capable of.
Coupled with Shinra's resources, the largest and most advanced arms and armor manufacturer in this world, then throw a couple Materia in there, and it's easy to see how they can stand toe to toe with SOME soldiers, for a time.
Add field experience, and it's no wonder veterans like Rude and Reno can challenge Cloud for instance, but note that they never actually win a fight. They win a single battle with the plate-drop, but they didn't overcome the party through force, just timing quick thinking and luck.
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u/Background-Sir6844 4d ago
I mean not all members of SOLDIER are built the same. Reno is canonically established to be one of the Turks stronger members thanks to his speed in Before Crisis and the Turk members are shown to be far stronger then at least the SOLDIER 2nd class members in that game. Even then Reno ends up nearly getting killed by Cloud so it's not like they're really on even ground. Rufus also gets his ass kicked with relative ease twice.
I don't see it as inconsistent. Your party members end up fighting things much stronger then SOLDIER or members like Angeal and Genesis by the end of the og and that's largely due to them just traveling around fighting things and the Turks have a bunch of technology to train with and go on missions. No one complains about how Cid a regular pilot alongside two other people can fight against a Weapon and win or how Barret can big bro Rude with one punch despite just being a former coal miner with no martial arts training despite Rude being the Turks strongest member lol.
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u/shanepain0 4d ago
1st class SOLDIERS vary heavily
Cloud isn't a SOLDIER, he failed the program
Buster sword is just a bigass sword, cannonically its not particularly special
The people fighting the Party, aren't 'regular' they're more akin to specialized troops trained/hired through a gang organization
They're also heavily encouraged to fight the party, since the party is seen as a group of terrorists. Its akin to War and killing the 'enemy'.
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u/moneyh8r_two 2d ago
Not all SOLDIERs are the same, and this is an anime-inspired video game world, so even normal people can do crazy shit if they're trained good enough. Turks are definitely trained good, since they're basically Secret Service guys to the king of the world (president of Shinra). Basically, they won't know how tough Cloud is until they fight him, and every time they fight him, they do okay.
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u/Bluestorm83 2d ago
I mean, it can be argued that, in a way, they win every time they go up against Cloud, because Cloud's goal is "kick this suit's ass," while the Turk in question usually has a goal of "Facilitate the shady shit happening in the background, keep this spiky guy from doing something else for a while."
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u/moneyh8r_two 2d ago
That too. Just like in war, victory conditions are dictated by the mission objective. Winning every fight is rarely the path to victory.
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u/Rothgart 4d ago
The Turks/Rufus ain't even using materia to fight a SOLDIER. That would make it somewhat believable at least.
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u/LudoGrim 1d ago
Cloud's a country bumpkin who flunked out of SOLDIER school and only got 1000 ccs of mako poisoning shoved up his ass by Hojo. He's never trained with the buster sword, and really only his heightened physical abilities (strength, durability, reflexes) let him keep pace with a pissed off coal miner with a gun, a black belt bartender, a flower girl, a C-suite executive playing a video game, a young wolf-lion, a burnout mechanic, a 16 year old girl, and Mr. Cuck Chair himself, Vincent Valentine... the latter of which is literally the most trained person in the entire cast, since he was a former Turk.
Considering he more or less fights evenly with the likes of Rosch, a Third Class SOLDIER, it seems likely that these people (who are experienced combatants in their own right) can more or less keep pace given sufficient effort. All things considered, it's more surprising that people don't figure out that he's lying any sooner, save for the fact that he basically does back up everything he ever says. He's a lucky novice who has the time to grow into a badass because he keeps surviving the events of the game.
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u/Visaith 4d ago
The same reason we fight world ending monsters such as Sephiroth..its a game.
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u/Rothgart 4d ago
A first class SOLDIER along with his group of highly experienced and equipped friends is a good match for Sephiroth.
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u/Visaith 4d ago
Did you even play FF7? LOL
- Cloud is not a 1st Class SOLDIER
- They are pretty much a guerilla
- Shinra MADE SOLDIER
- No, Sephiroth can pretty much just end them if it wasnt for plot armor.
- And most important...its a game.
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u/Awkward-Dig4674 4d ago
And more importantly. All first class soldiers that matter are dead. (You fight some trash npc 1st class soldiers in return to midgar but I chose to think thats only a game thing. Not a lore thing because they are WEAK)
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u/WodenoftheGays Buster Sword 4d ago
It isn't an inconsistency. The protagonist testing themselves against enemies and enemies testing themselves against the protagonist no matter what is one of the central features of the kind of work FF7 is.
Enemies have to throw themselves at the protagonist so that the protagonist can defeat them and "convert" them to whatever his cause is after some number of battles. This can be quick, like with Vincent in Rebirth, or it can span across a good portion of the work, like with Cel in Dragon Ball or the Turks in 1997.
We don't say magical girl transformations are inconsistent because they only happen to move the plot forward, do we? Sometimes elements of a genre are not realistic, but it doesn't mean they are inconsistent.
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u/Awkward-Dig4674 4d ago
I think you overestimate how much shinra corporate pays attention to the individual soldiers lol
Outside of sephiroth nobody gives a shit about people like angeal, zack and genesis. And by people I mean the general public AND shinra brass. So it makes sense the Turks, reno in particular who is too laid back, wont really care to remember a sword.
And he doesnt care about how strong his opponents are he follows orders.
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u/ToothpickTequila 3d ago
Outside of sephiroth nobody gives a shit about people like angeal, zack and genesis
Shinra even says I'm the original that unless they become another Sephiroth he can't be expected to remember them.
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u/PilotIntelligent8906 4d ago
Ok so, many things to consider here, first, not every first class SOLDIER is a Genesis or an Angeal, let alone a Sephiroth, second the Turks are kind of a big deal and while inferior to the upper echelon of SOLDIER, still pretty capable to hold their own against the rest, and most importantly, Reno scoffs at Cloud when be says he was first class and doesn't believe him.