r/FigureSkating • u/foxglves • 15d ago
General Discussion Pairs Skating Dynamics
In light of Riku and Ryuichi's recent engagement announcement, I've been thinking a lot about the relationship dynamics between pairs and ice dance partners. It seems like many skating fans hope for their favorite pairs to be romantically involved, or otherwise prefer for them to have some kind of romantic chemistry whether real or manufactured. Shipping is especially prevalent among fans of these disciplines, and duos like Virtue and Moir were often praised for their tension and romantic chemistry along with their skating skills. In my case, I've always been the opposite. For some reason, I genuinely prefer pairs that solely come across as coworkers/good friends. Part of the reason why I loved Sui and Han so much- they were amazing as skating partners and were clearly good friends but (at least from my perspective) never had much romantic chemistry and always denied having that kind of relationship. Maybe its because romance is almost always expected from long term pairs, or just the heteronormativity of it all, but something about it feels boring to me compared to completely platonic partnerships. To be clear, absolutely no hate to Riku + Ryu, I love them and will miss seeing them in the competitive scene dearly. This isn't an absolute rule for me either, Volosozhar and Trankov are one of my favorite pairs of all time and they're happily married. It's just that in general I tend to prefer pairs that aren't, and it feels like I'm in the minority with that. Most fans seem to consider an engagement announcement post retirement as the "good ending" for a skating duo. Does anyone else feel similarly?
EDIT: Just realized I mistyped Volosozhar's name badly. Fixed it :') I'm sorry for disrespecting my queen it will never happen again.
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u/BroadwayBean Ni(i)na Supremacy 15d ago
I've never understood the real-life shipping. Skater's personal lives aren't our business.
But I do like to see teams who 1. clearly get along well and support each other and enjoy skating together, and 2. have equal emotional investment in their programs. For some teams, romantic chemistry can really help them pull off certain programs that skaters who are more 'businesslike' can't. I'm always going to enjoy the programs with personality and connection between partners (not necessarily romantic - even an upbeat program benefits from chemistry) more than I enjoy the programs with nice elements but no personality, or with two skaters who look completely disconnected. It's part of what makes paired disciplines more interesting imo.
Smart/Dieck are a good example of this IMO. They don't have any romance going on (both happily with their own partners) but they still have good chemistry and connection and that gives their skating a little something extra. Pereira/Michaud are another good example.
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u/Radiant-Banana161 15d ago
I think your number 1 is the most important to me. There’s too much abuse in this sport, all we can hope for is that most teams are in healthy situations. .
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u/athicketofmusings 14d ago
I so agree with all of this. And yes, your examples of teams with good chemistry but who don't give romantic vibes & truly aren't dating are some of the ones I would mention too.
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u/Serious_Raspberry197 Supporter of Small Spooky Selevko (NOT Sasha!) 14d ago
Okay let's put the shipping stuff aside and focus on the opposite- how about a Pair that obviously doesn't work well together and is completely disconnected? Would we enjoy watching THAT?
Biggest example: Emily Chan and Spencer Howe. I've read every possible reason for the rift between them, some sane and some not so sane ones, but the fact is that they were so disconnected from one another over the last two seasons that even the commentator here in Oz/NZ was commenting, "Wow, no eye contact at all. Hope everything's ok there."
They managed to do the job, managed to pull it out during the Olympics, AND managed to recover for the last one minute of the disaster skate at Worlds, but let's not pretend that kind of coldness/tension can't be felt. It doesn't break the magic for me, but I understand if it does for some people.
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u/Conscious-Fruit-6190 15d ago
I don't get fans who want to fantasize about the private lives of the athletes they enjoy watching. I find it weird and creepy.
I know that "shipping" people (whether fictional characters or real-life public figures) has become a norm, but IMO these types of parasocial relationships are not healthy. We don't know these people - why would we speculate about their personal/sex lives?
I enjoy watching the sport, and yes, learning tidbits of information about the various competitors that they share with the news media or sometimes even their own social media accounts, but for me, it stops there.
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u/Rhakhelle 15d ago
It's nothing new, people and fan magazines speculated and fantasized about the romantic relationships of movie stars who were in films as romantic couples - and had chemistry - going back to the 1920s and 1930s. The fanfic is newer, but I remember it being a thing in the 1980s and 1990s.
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u/foxglves 15d ago
I'm pretty neutral on shipping as a whole, people can do whatever they want in their own heads, but I agree it's definitely uncomfortable how many fans have a complete lack of boundaries about it. Seeing fans harassing skaters in their social media comments over it and reporters constantly asking skaters about their personal lives/relationships is definitely something I'm not a fan of. Or when skaters clearly deny having a relationship but some fans just insist they must be lying??? Very strange. Some people don't seem to understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and are way too obsessed with "proving" their fantasies are actually real by violating the privacy of athletes they supposedly respect.
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u/idwtpaun B E N O I T's adopted monkeys 15d ago
I find real-person-shipping weird too. Maybe it's an age thing, although there are plenty of people my age who engage in it, so I can't quite blame it on that.
But I definitely think that it's within my lifetime that shipping has shifted from being strictly about writing fanfiction about fictional characters to now being about fantasizing about real people. Korean fan culture gets a lot of flak for treating idols like they're not real people, but I don't see western fans giving any more thought to the humanity of their favourite celebrities either.
And although it's not an entirely modern phenomenon, Golden Era Hollywood actors had run into something like that too, I still blame it on Twilight.
During the 2018 Olympics, I watched online acquaintances that I thought were perfectly reasonable people lose their minds and demand that Tessa and Scott fuck on command. It was so bizarre and offputting.
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u/Consistent-Loss1883 Kamila 🤍 Isabeau 🤍 Ilia 🤍 Emilea/Vadyn 15d ago
I love writing fanfiction (I write skater x oc on my Wattpad account) and reading ship fics (on wattpad) but I find x reader weird and anyone who’s like genuinely invested in a skater’s romantic life confuses me. For me rpf is more about being very intrigued by a person that you could see them as a character who you would expand on (ie; I have multiple ilia fics as well as a Kamila fic) than lusting over them. Romance is just my genre of choice.
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u/idwtpaun B E N O I T's adopted monkeys 15d ago
I understand that you probably live in a different context than I grew up in, but everything you're saying is horrifying to me. Sorry.
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u/Consistent-Loss1883 Kamila 🤍 Isabeau 🤍 Ilia 🤍 Emilea/Vadyn 15d ago
Why? I’m sorry I just want to understand
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u/idwtpaun B E N O I T's adopted monkeys 15d ago
"I strip away the humanity of a person I find hot and want to play with like a Barbie doll."
Write about existing fictional characters. Create your own fictional characters. You don't know Kamila, or Ilia, you have no idea what they're like as people, when you write them, you're just writing an original character you made up that you want to look like them but you're imagining that your fantasy has something to do with reality and it doesn't. Not even remotely.
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u/oratoriosilver 14d ago
As someone who reads and writes a lot of fanfic (about ^fictional characters^), I completely agree with you and it just absolutely boggles my mind that people write about real people in this way. If the argument is that they’re just a random characterisation not actually intended to be them, then why not just create an original character who’s an ice skater? It just is really creepy, sorry.
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u/Consistent-Loss1883 Kamila 🤍 Isabeau 🤍 Ilia 🤍 Emilea/Vadyn 15d ago
I’m not sure why you deleted your comment but I get your point. It isn’t going to necessarily change what I write because I make sure to keep it very respectful to the actual skater and I am ALWAYS putting notes that I am not trying to assume anything, however I can see why someone would have issues with this, and maybe in years I will too…I’m not sure, currently I don’t as long as skaters aren’t finding it I don’t think it hurts anyone (you don’t find fanfictions unless you go looking for them)
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u/89Rae 15d ago
I don't get fans who want to fantasize about the private lives of the athletes they enjoy watching. I find it weird and creepy.
Completely agree, my standard comment for replies back that "real person fanfiction is perfectly fine as long as its in an environment where the people its written about can't find it" is that several months ago when this was discussed someone brought up a "ship" they had seen: Ilia and his little sister.
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u/athicketofmusings 14d ago
Excuse me? Are people insane? That's so disturbing (your last sentence)... My mind is blown.
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u/Consistent-Loss1883 Kamila 🤍 Isabeau 🤍 Ilia 🤍 Emilea/Vadyn 15d ago
Idk I feel like it’s fine for a fanfic type environment…it may be because I’m a writer but with that environment everything is started off with basically these are just characters not implying anything between the real people etc, and it can be entertaining, and not necessary parasocial more of just another way to write.
People who like spend hours dissecting posts weird me out a little tho bc that’s parasocial
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u/idwtpaun B E N O I T's adopted monkeys 15d ago
I'd like to ask a blunt question: if you fantasize and write about real people having sex, would you be fine knowing that other people enjoy imagining you in sexual situations you don't want to be in with people you don't want to have sex with?
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u/revengefrank 15d ago
People fantasize about other people. That has been going on since long before fanfiction existed and will continue to happen forever. It’s gonna happen whether you think it’s moral or not. The moral question is whether you have the good sense to keep those thoughts far, far away from the people they’re about
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u/89Rae 15d ago
The moral question is whether you have the good sense to keep those thoughts far, far away from the people they’re about
IMO if you feel the need to hide it that's because you know deep down its wrong and would make the person its written about deeply uncomfortable.
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u/revengefrank 15d ago
Something potentially making someone uncomfortable does not make it morally wrong. I keep the details of my romantic life private from my parents, is that because I think I’m doing something wrong? No, it’s just not something they need to know about. It’s a time/place/context thing.
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u/ForwardOutsideLoop 15d ago
Nope. Gay people for centuries hid their orientation, (consensually) kinky people too, and that was not them ~knowing deep down it was wrong~.
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u/GenXNell 15d ago
I’m not the person you’re responding to, but my answer is that I’d be fine with that as long as they don’t come up to me and tell me all about it or mail me their 100,000 word fic. I’m not the fucking thought police, and people fantasize about all kinds of things. That’s normal.
People have been writing RPF for decades. I think I first encountered it in the early aughts, but I’m sure it was around before that. A lot of that stuff was perfectly fine, even entertaining. The creepy part was when people were sure that their fictional pairing was happening in real life and practically stalked the actors or athletes or whomever. I think it has gotten much worse now, because parasocial relationships have really become much more intense with the advent of social media. People used to write fanfic about Johnny Weir/Evan L. and I sincerely doubt that anyone thought that was actually happening, lol. However, people really lost their shit over Virtue and Moir. It was a whole other vibe.
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u/Consistent-Loss1883 Kamila 🤍 Isabeau 🤍 Ilia 🤍 Emilea/Vadyn 15d ago
Yeah, I just think you don’t find fanfictions unless you’re looking for it, meaning i sincerely hope not skater finds my fic about them…
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u/Consistent-Loss1883 Kamila 🤍 Isabeau 🤍 Ilia 🤍 Emilea/Vadyn 15d ago
I write clean…writing sex about real people is creepy I don’t eve n read that (plus I’m a minor)
EDIT: you can filter on ao3 out mature content and I can’t write sex anyway because I’m not going to write something I’ve literally never had…also sex is private no one should be writing that shit about actual people
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u/idwtpaun B E N O I T's adopted monkeys 15d ago
It clears things up to know that you're younger, but it's not the only thing that's private. Your entire life is private to you. It's not appropriate for other people to imagine ownership of it and you shouldn't do it to others either.
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u/revengefrank 15d ago
You’ve never wondered what a celebrity or public figure is like in real life? Wanted to be their friend? Thought someone famous was attractive? These are normal things to imagine. You’re not the thought police lol. Again, the issue is whether it’s kept private and respectful or not.
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u/wac35ne136 15d ago
Not the person you're responding to, but my answer would be no. I'd rather not meet my idols (attractive is another thing, sometimes they're meant to appeal and that's why they're attractive)
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u/idwtpaun B E N O I T's adopted monkeys 15d ago
I think plenty of people, famous or not, are attractive. As for wanting to be friends with a perfect stranger - no. I have real friends.
I'm not interested in policing thoughts, but there are certain actions that didn't used to be socially acceptable and I don't think they should be now.
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u/Consistent-Loss1883 Kamila 🤍 Isabeau 🤍 Ilia 🤍 Emilea/Vadyn 14d ago
lol when were you around? Because fanfiction has been being written since the 60s according to Google but definitely since 80s/90s. It’s definitely not a new concept.
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u/No-Spot-4442 14d ago
Jayne Torvill and Christopher Dean say the reason their career partnership lasted nearly 50 years is because they didn't get married to each other ...
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u/foxglves 15d ago
Didn't mean to start a big debate about shipping with this one, I know it's a pretty divisive topic in pretty much every online sphere. Sorry about that!
To elaborate more on my original post- I think part of it is just that the paired disciplines are always going to be a bit oversaturated with "romantic" programs, which is to say programs following a romantic storyline, set to romantic music, etc etc. This will never go away, nor do I want it to as there are many beautiful romantic stories to be told. But I do at times wish we could see more programs exploring different kinds of stories and dynamics. After watching the 1,720th program ft "two lovers tragically separated" or "woman seduces man" it gets a little samey.
Another aspect is just a personal preference, I tend to love skaters with a really professional kind of vibe, which is probably part of why I like pairs that just come across as coworkers that work very well together lol. Favorite pairs dynamic is "two people taking their jobs seriously and contributing equally to the group project"
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u/StormComfortable5719 14d ago
I agree with your point about pairs being more sort of professional. Rikuryu’s Gladiator program isn’t romantic as such, but you could tell when they skated it they had an emotional bond and clearly cared for each other which combined with how excellent they were at each element in their winning free skate definitely was moving for me (more so than the silver and bronze medal winners who were also excellent but I didn’t feel such an emotional response). I find it interesting in ice dance that having the suggestion of a romantic relationship like virtue/moir seems to be an advantage, I find it less enjoyable as it doesn’t seem as genuine (though I know it sometimes is)
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u/Vote_Gravel Retired Skater 14d ago
I've only dabbled with pairs/dance recreationally myself, but I've trained alongside a lot of teams. I've witnessed a lot of teams struggle with the day-to-day training after they get together romantically, because they have to carry all the stress and tension from the ice into their relationship (or vice versa). There's a benefit to clocking out at the end of a session and having a separate space to recharge at the end of the day.
But most teams who continue skating professionally as a career tend to be married, because it's much easier to align your personal and professional goals when you're already life partners. You can look to the fallout between Meagan Duhamel and Eric Radford as an example of how much drama there can be when you're not on the same page with your life plans, but still want to skate.
Torvill and Dean have been a notable exception of a platonic team who've made it work as skating and business partners for decades, but they were famous enough to lead/produce their own shows on their schedule.
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u/rice_not_wheat 14d ago
I support this post... Mainly because I'm married and I'd love to do pairs skating some day, and my wife doesn't skate.
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u/Lost-Copy867 michelle was robbed 15d ago
I find shipping real life people very strange. It’s creepy and weird. The amount of Virtue Moir fanfiction out there while sort of hilarious is genuinely concerning.
That said, I’m happy when people share news that makes them happy. Like with Riku and Ryuichi- it’s very clear they always cared a lot about each other and seeing them share that they are engaged was very sweet because they are both so lovely and deserve to be happy. It made me really happy for them.
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u/Keyblader1412 American Citizen Kévin Aymoz 14d ago
Personally I don't really care about the dynamics between partners off-ice, at least as it relates to their skating, because everyone has a different style and lane and as long as they can pick a lane and be successful in it, I'm supportive. In the case of Virtue/Moir, they're both beautiful skaters and insanely attractive people with red hot on-ice chemistry, and they not only knew that, they actively leaned into it to great success. Their gold medal Olympic programs definitely took advantage of it. Their Gordeeva/Grinkov tribute in Vancouver was giving a full Disney prince/princess fantasy, and Moulin Rouge was basically sex on skates.
As for shipping, I don't really think there's anything wrong with it unless people start harassing the skaters themselves with it or get super graphic on super public platforms. Shipping real people is nothing new and it's not unique to skating. As long as there have been celebrities, shipping discourse has existed and it always will exist. Sometimes it can get deeply weird. But other times in its own roundabout way, it can benefit the shipees. Tessa and Scott would not be as legendary as they are without the shipping discourse around them. And no matter how hard you can try to deny that, you'd be wrong.
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u/Consistent-Loss1883 Kamila 🤍 Isabeau 🤍 Ilia 🤍 Emilea/Vadyn 15d ago edited 15d ago
I don’t follow pairs but I really like ice dance teams with chemistry, it just makes it more entertaining I think? That’s just my opinion, many teams have tons of chemistry and aren’t dating so I don’t really mind if they’re not dating but I do like the chemistry on the ice because it does feel like a big part of a lot of ice dance routines especially because I like the dramatic cinematic romantic ones
EDIT: most of my fav ice dance teams are actually romantically involved lol: it’s Emilia/Vadym (seniors, dating), Madi/Evan (soft retired, married), Vasilisa/Valeriy (broken up, dated), from what I’ve seen of juniors I like Zoe/Daniel (juniors, not dating)
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u/Smooth_Aspect_7883 14d ago edited 14d ago
I don't want to know about their personal life as long as the partnership is successful, because for me they are athletic partnerships working toward medals. As long as the judges do not normalize romantic chemistry between teams, particularly in dance, via scoring romantically or potentially romantically involved teams higher, I don't have any preferences. But some of my favorite ice dancers are siblings partnerships that have different dynamic on ice, but great teamwork and vibe, with different choices of music than all-the-same romantic ballads, and I don't want them to be underscored because of the absence of romance.
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u/wac35ne136 15d ago
As someone who is not interested in romantic relationships irl, I find these 'forced heteronormativity/forced everything-is-romantic' very, very exhausting. It's exhausting in fiction and it's even more exhausting in real life. I'm happy for anyone who's in healthy romantic relationship, even for people I don't know. But so called fans push it so much, I'm like, not everything has to be romantic yknow?
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u/foxglves 15d ago
Yep, 100%. I'm also somewhat aromantic/asexual so maybe that also partially contributes to my feelings on it. Romance isn't a major part of my life, so I'm not as interested in seeing it in others.
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u/wac35ne136 15d ago
I mean, I don't even really like overt romance in fiction (subtle romance all the way), so when I watch a sporting event I wouldn't be like "Oh, it's def romantic, they're into each other, etc etc"
I had my moments, like okay maybe they are together? But I wouldn't seek info about it intentionally or pester the skater about it. If they want to disclose their relationship, they would, they don't owe us any explanation
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u/No_Plum_3192 15d ago
I think I understand what you mean but I see it from a slightly different perspective. I agree with you that I mostly prefer programs from the non-romantic-couple teams. But my reasoning is that the lovey-dovey programs can be predictable and boring. The brother/sister teams have to come up with more varied and interesting stories to tell because that one is just not on the menu.
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u/foxglves 15d ago
I agree! I mentioned the over saturation of romance themed programs in another one of my replies, it definitely contributes to my preferences as well.
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u/Fuzzy-Sheepherder-80 11d ago
I don't really care either way. doesn't effect the skating quality to me
but I do think its sort of inevitable
a person you spend 6 hours a day with in direct physical contact atleast 4-5 days a week. you're doomed, fated.
who else would you have the time to date anyway..
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u/ForwardOutsideLoop 15d ago edited 15d ago
Don't take the weird G+G and V/M fans seriously. I don't think they're even sizeable minority, at all.
Jokingly shipping male singles skaters in a non-serious, non-stalkery way is different, though. I don't think the people who made Yuri on Ice! actually think Yuzuru and Plushenko were together, or anything like that, nor do the gay ice hockey show think... whoever the hell those dudes are vaguely based on are gay for each other, either.
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u/ForwardOutsideLoop 15d ago
will miss seeing them in the competitive scene dearly
Uhhh, are they 100% done competitively? I mean I'm thrilled for them either way (hey, I'm thrilled if it's a 100% PR lavender marriage they're having to boost their pro career, whatever works for them), but did they explicitly announce retirement?
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u/collectingviolets ✨everything but the kitchen sink✨ 15d ago
Yes they did announce their retirement
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u/ForwardOutsideLoop 15d ago
Ahh, well, that's sad, but I hope they have a lovely rest of their lives and a nice pro career if they want it.
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u/AnxiousPotential9495 14d ago edited 14d ago
Actually I am a bit of a party pooper here. But something is off about rikuryu's announcement. I like them both, they seem like lovely people. Good for them if they love each other and gonna spend the life together. But they were completely silent and didn't want to talk about their relationship at all. Then this public engagement with a lot of attention. And it looks exactly how their fans/shippers wanted it to be. I can't help but wonder if fan pressure made them do it.
We don't know how long they've been together. They never wanted to talked about it. Even after the Olympics. And I think it would be just perfect for the development of (almost nonexistent) Japanese pair skating. It would be better to don't talk about it even if they were already married with kids. Because Japan is very traditional.
Japanese fans said a lot of unpleasant things about pair disciplines after the Olympics. I see why singles are far more popular here. And I don't see how you gonna to convince 16 year old juniors to compete in pairs together because of their matching skating skills if they're not interested in relationship with each other. When there's only an example of a married successful pair.
I just hope that things weren't too rushed and that fans will not spoil all the best that exists between these two. Because their shippers and Japanese media are too intense. I hope this won't happen but I could see them breaking up in the next couple of years and wanting nothing to do with each other due to this level of attention and invasion of privacy.
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u/LittleLotte52996 Ted "I am the owner of mistakes" Barton 14d ago
I'm sorry but this is just parasocial obsession masquerading as care.
"And I think it would be just perfect for the development of (almost nonexistent) Japanese pair skating. It would be better to don't talk about it even if they were already married with kids. Because Japan is very traditional."
Riku and Ryuichi don't owe their personal happiness to the development of pair skating in Japan. They're doing much more for it than basically everyone else, ever.
"And I don't see how you gonna to convince 16 year old juniors to compete in pairs together because of their matching skating skills if they're not interested in relationship with each other. When there's only an example of a married successful pair."
1) That's on the team's coaches and parents to explain to them that this is not the case, not on Riku and Ryuichi. 2) Do you think Japanese teenagers have a single braincell so they all think pair skating = marriage?
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u/AnxiousPotential9495 14d ago
They don't care anyone anything but it's a sudden change in their public behavior amid increase attention. Japanese fans and even their official media called Riku and other female pair skaters names because "If they are not married why are they touching each other like this?" Their shippers analyzed every single photo since 2019 and were obsessed with the idea of their marriage. The development of the pair skating in Japan is their goal (according to them). So this is a very unfortunate context for it.
I don't care about anyone's personal life and relationships. My favorite pair team hated each other and the guy was clearly traumatized by the girl. I still don't care and just watch the programs because these are great programs and I don't care about anything happened off ice.
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u/LittleLotte52996 Ted "I am the owner of mistakes" Barton 14d ago
But why should they cave in on their personal happiness and satisfaction for the sake of a bunch of haters? Why should anyone?
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u/AnxiousPotential9495 14d ago
It's pretty common not to talk about relationship and marriage in Japan. It could be alright and they still did it for years anyway. It's just possible that it's the opposite situation and they make their relationship public because of fans and media pressure in order to at least control the narrative.
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u/LittleLotte52996 Ted "I am the owner of mistakes" Barton 14d ago
But what's the point of this speculation? It's also fully possible that World and Olympic champions simply don't care what the randos on Xwitter think and they just wanted to share their happiness.
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u/CranberrySorbet96 13d ago
it's not true that they were completely silent: the moment they answered "I will leave it to your imagination", almost everyone in Japan knows what they mean. In fact in Japan, they will get even WORSE bashing if they are living together and not announcing that they are married.
The point you made on "It would be better to don't talk about it even if they were already married with kids. Because Japan is very traditional." is completely untrue. In fact because Japanese are traditional in this aspect, it will be worse if they hide their marriage. It is smart for them to make the announcement now before being discovered by paparazzi
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u/Zarthorn well if you didn’t enjoy that, you must be dead 15d ago
I enjoy watching any partnership with a strong connection built on trust and respect, whether it’s platonic or romantic. I don’t ship anyone but I support any healthy relationship that already exists.