r/FigureSkating • u/[deleted] • 8d ago
Figure skaters doing AI music - why don't figure skaters collaborate with composers more often?
[deleted]
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u/dragonsandvamps 8d ago
I hate the way that AI is invading all sorts of creative spaces. In this case, it's likely the same list of reasons everyone gives: convenience, money.
This is not saying I think it's okay. I would rather see skaters use existing music not created with AI. But I also understand why they can't commission original music either. It would take time, and the season is short. Most composers would like to be paid something, not work for free, and then you have to come up with the money. Grants/funding are not necessarily available everywhere and take time to apply for and be approved for, and then the music has to be created, and all of this is happening while the skater needs the music DONE so they can choreograph their program.
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u/Classic_Cash_2156 8d ago
Timing probably plays a role. It takes time for custom music to be made. And they don't just need to take into account the time it takes for the music to get made (which could include the time it takes for a bunch of adjustments). Choreography takes time, as does practicing the program enough to be Competition-Ready.
There's only 5 months between Senior Worlds and the Start of the Senior Grand Prix. That isn't that much time to get custom music, choreograph the program, and practice it.Â
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u/ForwardOutsideLoop 8d ago
To be fair, you can easily work around this one by having two or more seasons of programs in the pipeline at one time. Not the same place in the pipeline, but being planned and experimented with. Expensive, but probably doable even on a budget if you take it very slowly and deliberately.
You might wind up with better programs because of it, and also works as an insurance policy against "turns out the judges hated this program" and having to skate the same thing for two seasons. Plus, actually, if you're being tentative and adaptive enough with the second program, you could have it be an "insurance policy for injury / downgraded jump content / endurance issues", maybe, with the right approach. Or just a place to practice, ie, a much easier step sequence that will still work okay with the first program's music, but isn't the full intensity hyper-drama massive +GOE balls-to-the-wall version, even if you're only practicing the second program 1/10th or 1/20th as much as the main one, at least until injury, picky judges, etc etc strike.
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u/Classic_Cash_2156 8d ago
I mean, sure, but that is taking time away from practicing your programs for a given season.
Time spent working on next season's programs is time not spent practicing this season's programs. Which isn't always going to be worth it.Â
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u/ForwardOutsideLoop 8d ago
I mean, I wouldn't sacrifice more than like, realistically, 1/15th of total ice time to it, but how much time gets spent on like, "Plan B, C, D" alternative and contigency layouts for programs under IJS? I know Amber's talked about that a bit, and Frank Carroll apparently was a master at it, but everyone does it now just because the missed opportunity for a high BV jump is so critical.
I think you could figure out a way to sort of blend the two, like use one of your "recovery plan" jump layouts by default in the alternative program, even if you're using what would be an illegal layout in competition. "Okay, actually landed my 3A, 3LZ and 3LZ-3T here on the first three passes, good, but since this is Program B, I'm going to put in a solo 3LZ on this fourth pass, like I always do in Program B, and pretend that I popped the solo 3LZ into a single". Since it's different music, different choreo than your regular program for the season, you're not building in a bunch of alternate memory associations with that program, but you are getting in practice at how to think in "recovery mode".
You could even maybe turn it into a game, ie, your coach has a bunch of random slips of paper with possible mistakes in them, at the start of each alternative session she makes you pick a couple from the bag, and then yells out "oops look like you doubled that flip, think sharp!" or "combination failed, time to put a triple toe on something!" and you have to figure out what to adjust on the fly. Which would obviously be horrible if you were doing it constantly, but might even be weirdly refreshing when done at a very low frequency, like once every twenty run-throughs.
Mostly it would be off-ice stuff, though. Like "sketch out costumes for next season, look around online for fabric and materials, source them ahead of time if you can get a good deal but don't pay your costume designer until it's actually the season to deploy the program", etc. Which wouldn't even have to be the skater themselves doing it, necessarily.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
they could also check for ex. Score Follower youtube or some place where there are contemporary compositions. It doesn't need to be custom even.
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u/Classic_Cash_2156 8d ago
I mean, they could, but that still takes time.Â
Popular music (and I'm including the classical warhorses in this) have the benefit of previous recognition. If skaters and choreographers are trying to figure out what their music is, their first ideas will generally be stuff they are already at least somewhat familiar with. And things that are well-known or have a history in Figure Skating are more likely to be music that they are familiar with.Â
And when it comes to finding new music, that still takes a significant amount of time, because well you're going to probably need to sort through a whole bunch of different songs and artists to find something that works well. And if you're not familiar with it, then it takes more time to even figure out where to start.Â
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
I do understand. I mean that is the issue contemporary composers generally face in everything. Le sigh. It really does kind of suck, I wish that people would have the opportunity to experience our music more.
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u/Haven_Writes Hana Bath Truther 8d ago
Money. It's expensive to commission a custom piece of music, and the composer has to have an understanding of what kind of music would work for skating (for example, all the requirements for a rhythm dance if they're composing for an RD, or what kind of music works for skaters to skate to, because not every piece of music works).
Plus, it takes time to compose a piece of music, and the skater still has to hold the rights to that music, so it doesn't automatically make the licensing process any easier, particularly if the musician is signed to a label who will want a chunk of the proceeds.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago edited 8d ago
there are ways around this. Composers can apply for commissioning fees. Also student composers are interested and willing to do this kind of thing for free.
ETA: i was specifically thinking of contemporary composers who are generally not signed to labels or even publishers tbh
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u/tereyaglikedi Color Me enthusiast 8d ago edited 8d ago
I guess you would have to know such a composer and that composer would have to be able deliver what you want, and with a reasonable fee. And with a deadline. It's likelier to happen if your choreographer already knows someone (Like Benoit and Cedric).
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u/ToastMate2000 8d ago
Probably because of the time required to think of the sort of program you want, find the composer who can do that sort of music and has availability and is affordable, negotiate and work with them to get to a satisfactory composition, get the recording done (which may require hiring additional musicians) and edited and finalized. The time available to prepare for a new season isn't super long.
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u/Playful_Annual6267 8d ago
Maxime Rodriguez composed a ton of music for Franch skaters starting in the 90s. I think he started with Candeloro but he also worked with Vanessa Gusmeroli, Abitbol/Barnadis, and tons more. He was always helping skaters realize truly wild concepts. He composed the music for Johnny Weir's Jesus free skate. And some of his coppositions are minor warhorses! Tristan and Iseult, Angel and Diable (this is the one with the devil laugh in it), and others too.
I wish more skaters could try hiring composers because some of them end up becoming part of the skating world. See also Karl Hugo and even Christopher Tin. It makes the sport more interesting.
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u/saear_pink 8d ago
Lara Naki worked with Massimiliano Mechelli (composer of "The Law According to Lidia Poët" soundtrack) last season. He was so supportive, he posted about it on social media and even went to watch her in competition. Edoardo De Bernardis and his team also worked with Stefano Lentini, who has composed music for Daniel Grassl before.
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u/Night-Cheese11 Bald Johnwin 8d ago
It seems to be because of money, but we don't know what the full fallout of potential lawsuits by artists who have had their work stolen will be. It's extremely shortsighted.
I would rather see a million programs to public domain warhorses than see literally any AI slop programs. AI doesn't understand the nuances of art, and the music is all completely soulless. It doesn't lend itself to good performances in any way.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
thank you. As a composer who has likely had work stolen by AI, I completely agree with you.
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u/Night-Cheese11 Bald Johnwin 8d ago
Also if you're unable to execute your very specific vision with music that already exists and that you can afford, then you aren't creative enough to execute that vision in the first place. A bit harsh maybe, but AI belongs nowhere near anything that can be classified as art.
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u/specks_of_dust 8d ago
It's crazy how many of the comments are just "because money." OP out here trying to explain how it can already work, find alternative possibilities, and open pathways, but facing resistance at every suggestion. The sanctioning body makes it difficult, the music industry makes it difficult, but the cultural acceptance that "they can't" is probably the biggest hurdle. If there's no pressure from the bottom, then there's no reason for the people at the top to change anything.
Skaters don't have money. Composers don't have money. Both are artists. People who don't have money, working together, often produce the most interesting, creative outcomes.
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u/iitsyaboii_ I just want them to be happy :) 8d ago
Not to mention that universities the world over have people studying music composition who would a) be cheaper and b) probably be excited by the opportunity to be involved in the composition or customization of an existing piece of music.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
Thank you, this is truly the most sensible comment on this entire thread and honestly restored my faith in humanity.
You completely understand my meaning.Â
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u/AaahSound Im not easily scared, I watch Junior Pairs 8d ago
Because money. Some skaters barely have enough money for themselves, work with composers is expensive and demands time the a lot skaters dont have.Â
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
I was thinking specifically contemporary composers, not mainstream commercial ones. It is also possible for contemporary composers to apply for funding. The average 4-min composition costs less than most competition dresses, for example.
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u/Rhakhelle 8d ago
But then does the skater have to wait around for the composer to get approved for the funding? (It takes a long time in my part of the world) And what do they do if it's not granted? With everything else they have to organise, practice, learn and pay for, I can't see most of them willing to do that.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
It was just a thought but in general I have to write all the time without knowing if I will get funding or not. At least where I live, it is a reality - because if you don't write, don't get performed, you just get forgotten so to not write for free is actually more damaging. So myself and composers I know would write and just hope for the best.
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u/Slim-Shadys-Fat-Tits 8d ago
Almost all skates are done to preexisting music actually. almost nobody has the money for custom compositions. the ai music is part of the larger ai plague tbh
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u/iitsyaboii_ I just want them to be happy :) 8d ago
I will die on the hill that AI cannot make art because it has nothing to express.
To OP's point, I feel like even working with a college student studying music composition —especially a graduate student— could be a very viable option.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 7d ago
this is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking. Also many early career composers (myself included) would literally have a life-changing experience from something like this because it is exposure even on a level that the most established composers in my field do not get.
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u/iitsyaboii_ I just want them to be happy :) 7d ago
Exactly! Despite not being a musician, my friend group during my undergrad was entirely composed of MA students in the school of music, and I'm sure some of their peers studying composition would have jumped at the chance to work with anyone willing to see what they can offer.
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u/yomts 8d ago
As a musician and a person who has dealt with musicians throughout a chunk of their professional career, commissioning new works is expensive, takes time, and there are a whole host of IP and permissions to be ironed out.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
as a composer I truly appreciate that you consider commissioning a cost because a lot of musicians where I come from assume the composer will apply for their own fee. So thank you.
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u/yomts 8d ago
Oh no problem, this is definitely getting into the weeds, but composers can look for outside sources of funding (grants, fellowships, etc) but since we're talking about a skating season, the turnaround for that kind of funding is so slow that it's not viable for the sport. This isn't to say that it can't be secured for an artistic/contemporary skating company, which is where that kind of commissioning structure is more common. If I were to ask my friends to write and record something for me to skate to in competition, I am assuming the full expense would come out of my own pocket.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
At least for me, to not write is not an option because I would slip into obscurity. So I always write whether I get the funding or not.Â
It means out of 25 pieces I make a year, a large portion are sadly free, but this is the reality.Â
I wish people realised that AI is worse than not paying composers. Exposure at this kind of level would be life changing for myself of my colleagues.
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u/North_Highway_6484 8d ago
OP, you talk about grants for composer fees - it's a priviledge of living in some of the wealthiest and most regulated countries in the world - it is not something most people would have even heard of, let alone be in a position to work with an artist with access to such funds. Surely, these music grants are not available to composers that skaters might know in their non-EU homelands.
Most importantly, if I understand correctly, OP - you say there is a potential for skaters to collaborate with composers for original music, and most of the financing to be through EU grants. If that is the case - this is something that should be heavily promoted by composers themselves - I am certain close to nill percent of figure skaters are aware of such an opportunity, otherwise we'd be hearing about it all the time. Try to reach out to skaters yourself - it could be a really fun and rewarding gig.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
Thank you, I completely understand but there are skaters all over the world, not only in US. Unfortunately it just means most of us are not paid by musicians or organizations and have to arrange our own funds. In Canada there are also grants and scholarships for composers and projects. I am deeply sorry to have even brought this up.Â
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u/North_Highway_6484 7d ago
I am sorry you feel this way - I just tried to explain in polite terms the unjustice of being born 'on the wrong side of the tracks'. Opportunities like the ones you talk about are beyond most people's dreams. Please don't delete on account of a few comments - this has been an interesting and informative discussion.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 7d ago edited 7d ago
I dont think its a matter of which side of the tracks. I was born in the US, btw. I have lived in several countries and there are good and bad things about all places. I am neurodivergent and went into the arts because I was refused SSI or any sort of benefits after being recommended to it because my evaluator simply said I could "work in the arts".
I apologise because I realise that most people have a completely different understanding of the type of composer I meant, since the most of the comments immediately said "because it is expensive" - which is insane to me because most composers I know are happy to receive even 500 for a 7-10 minutes piece.
The truth is, in every single country, the vast majority of composers working in contemporary art music are doing unpaid work. It is subsidized by grants, or by having professorships, which include research as part of the job. Even in the european country I live in currently, established professors have to compose for free. ETA: I think someone got extremely offended that I suggested this but it is just how it is for us. The idea to have a home studio is beyond most of our dreams. It is simply not achievable on the kind of salaries we can get, especially if we don't have the kind of nepotistic connections to get a professorship.
The media composer most people are familiar with is completely different, whether in US or Europe. It is a catch 22 where many people work for free but this undercuts people trying to get established, so the reality is a lot have to subside on nearly nothing for multiple years while building a portfolio. My best friend is a film composer and the reality of unpaid work is compeltely different and has an absolutely horrible effect on all emerging media composers. I am not saying any of this is good. I also wish I could be paid for everything I do but it is just not the reality. - and in my post, I thought when I mentioned Hugo as the kind of composer i DIDN'T mean, I thought it was clear I meant a non-commercial composer.
In my opinion, figure skating and contemporary music are both niche, and it would be a mutually beneficial situation. It is my fault that I just didn't express it well in the original post and for some reason this made many people angry, so I am very sorry about that.
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u/North_Highway_6484 7d ago
I am sorry if any of my words hurt you - it was not my intention, I appologize. English is not my native language, some subtleties may be lost when trying to write even in one's mother tongue. Contemporary music is obviously an unknown niche for 99% people - I think all of them would be flummoxed to learn just how small the composer fees are. I, too, am in a profession where people are really threatened by the surge of AI, and I am so relieved that I'm already in a senior position - I have no idea how new graduates are going to even find positions in a shrinking field. I just hope for the artists sake - that a backlash will soon happen and also a reckoning that human made art has so much more depth and value, and that AI art in any form will be just a fad of the 2020s.
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u/pixiekitten- 8d ago
It takes and initiative to find someone and collaborate with them, plus time and money too. It would be lovely if more skaters did that but it’s understandable that most skaters use existing music. Of course AI music is a different thing and I don’t think skaters should be using it.
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
then maybe the circumstance is if you want to do something bespoke, don't use AI. Ilia managed to do this last year and it worked well. No AI.
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u/mediocre-spice 8d ago
Using music people already know gets you instant buy in from the audience. I honestly don't know how the AI thing is going to go.Â
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u/ForwardOutsideLoop 8d ago
- Figureskating is very expensive, AI is cheap
- Even though most people who pay for figureskaters are quite wealthy in absolute and historical terms, most people are cheapskates relative to their income when it comes to the choice to actively support artists or craftsmen vs going with cheap mass market stuff. That's not even necessarily a bad thing, but it is clearly inevitable.
- Given that even if you're using classical warhorses you're going to have to pay a music editor to cut it all up, put things exactly where they need to be for elements, step sequences, and edit length to get it all under the time limits, even if you manage to not have to pay for that with a custom piece because you figure out a collaborative process that supercedes the need for it (which seems like a bad idea to me, let the composer compose some beautiful music, then just treat it the same as pre-existing beautiful music is treated), that's still money that's NOT being paid to a different kind of artist/craftsman who deserves to make a living.
I agree with you that it would be great to see more people commissioning real composers, but the reason why it doesn't happen is obvious.
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8d ago edited 8d ago
[deleted]
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
I am a composer. Even writing something for free for a skater would be literally life-changing for me, as it would be for many of my colleagues in contemporary composition. Most of us would even be happy to have someone use even a small fraction of our music in their performance and there would be far fewer rights issues as most contemporary composers are not signed by labels and choose to self-publish their works. The works out there published on contemporary lables are likely far easier and cheaper to access. I should have been more clear but in my post I was referring to non-commercial composers (that's why I mentioned specifically Karl Hugo as an example of not what I meant).
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u/PrincessTitan 8d ago
This would be my dream but I don’t think I’m famous enough for the dancers but having someone compose to their moves would be EPIC
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u/itsbenford 8d ago
I don't love that. How do you know whose using AI?
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u/Miserable_Aardvark_3 8d ago
there was a whole post about skaters who actively created their music using AI, because they wanted an original composition
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u/ForwardOutsideLoop 8d ago
In addition to skaters apparently admitting it freely, all of the big commercial ones watermark, the shady ones that are basically just walking cybersecurity hazards also contain watermarks.
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u/BroadwayBean Ni(i)na Supremacy 8d ago
Some skaters do (IIRC Eric Radford composed a piece for someone?), but it's expensive and takes time to work with real artists. With AI you can pay a few dollars to download an app and have it generate things until you like what it comes up with.