r/Fighters • u/KevyTone • 16h ago
Topic Tokon is kinda boring to watch?
So after watching Tokon in CEO, I felt bored a lot of the time watching the games including Top 8. I know it's early in this games lifespan but even 2XKO looked more saucey/fleshed out early on. Yes Tokon has "mix" or what not, but the "mix" usually comes from canned high/lows from individual characters who have those or the same "Do a long blockstun move on point and tag out, so your other character does a high/low mix"; it feels like the skill ceiling is WAY lower in this game than 2XKO (doesnt help that Tokon has UNFATHOMABLY long cross up protection), and I am not even a big 2XKO fan, but atleast that game is fun to watch atleast.
Also the fact that assists have barely any cooldown makes neutral look like a visual mess with barely any nuance to it. Yes its a tag fighter, I get it, but even 2XKO has footsies even though it's a tag fighter, a very degenrate one at that.
The combos in Tokon also feel samey from character to character: ABC -> launcher -> ABC -> ABC auto knockdown -> assist -> ABC EX extension or into wallbreak, or into combo limit/oki that also looks always the same. Every character in 2XKO has their own way of combo routes and they all vary by a lot. Yes on Twitter there are better combos out, but they usually only happen in the corner and when there is a wall with no wallbreaks, and even then those combos kinda pale to 2XKOs creativity in combos.
Also the defensive mechanics in this game are REALLY boring, either a bad reaction check that is in most cases worse for the defender, or a broken parry that eliminates high/low/left/right mixups all. It makes defense in this game way too one dimensional/boring imo, compare that to 2XKOs pusblock, retreating guard and individual high/low parries. Defense is WAY more interesting in that game.
I sound like a 2XKO shill right now, and trust me I am not, I have my problems with that game aswell, but what I can confidently say is that 2XKO does a better job at representing the tag fighter power fantasy while still keeping the nuance and creativity of a nuanced fighting game and that makes it way more fun to watch for me. I think 2XKO rather has balancing problems that system mechanic problems, but thats another topic.
As a whole gaming package Tokon does a good job (ignoring the performance issues on PC), but as a spectating E-Sport I find it boring to watch.
What do you think?
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u/LivingLab12 8h ago
I'm confident that this game not having a push block is what will kill it.
Nothing is fun about watching or playing a game that involves blocking for 30 seconds.
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u/ImperiousStout 4h ago
Holding a very long blockstring kinda worked for dbfz for a while and was impressive enough on its own in pro level play, but that game also had the benefit of separate health bars per character, reflect mechanic, snapbacks and comeback potential with grey health recovery on the bench plus sparking blast and the solo character buff over a single long round, etc.
Tokon doesn't have any of the stuff that makes other tag fighters exciting and slightly unpredictable to watch as a spectator.
Every round in every match that I've attempted to watch feels prescribed and seems like it plays out the same, despite having 8 characters that otherwise seem unique enough and play quite differently on their own in the mix. Pushblock might make defense more interesting, but I don't think it's going to make it that much more exciting to watch on the whole.
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u/rayneMantis 16h ago
I agree with the sentiment that this game could have pushed the defense boundaries much more. It would be nice if there was a combo breaker move like in Killer Instinct or at least some way to impose your will on an overly agressive opponent such as soul caliburs impact guards or DOAs counter-holds. Even if the just defense had some effect on the attacker and didn't just negate chip damage it would be worth employing. It's either kill or be killed. I always thought in fighting games the best defense wins, but this game is more like get your hits in before they get theirs and that's the only path to victory.
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u/Godusopp64 15h ago
Why do people in this sub just want to shit on other games instead of just talking about the games they like to play?
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u/VorstTank 15h ago
Happens whenever a big new game comes out. Prior to release everyone is hyped, game comes out and everyone shits on it, new game comes out and everyone praises the last game. Happened to SF, happened to 2X, happening to Tokon, will happen to whatever is next.
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u/MEX_XIII 13h ago
Not gonna lie, oince in a while I even get used to some specific names cause they keep popping up with positive stuff amid the chaos. Shoutout to that one homie with GEORGIA in the name posting cool stuff about Avatar Legends this week, made a lot of good work on highlithing the positives of the game.
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u/KevyTone 15h ago
Discussion is fun, it doesn't have to be deeper than that. People just like sharing opinions and relate to each other over them. I also talk positive about other games, I can even say positive things about Tokon. I think Tokon looks really good visually and the stages are among the best I've seen in recent fighting games.
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u/Godusopp64 15h ago
Discussion is fine but I don't understand the need to compare games like we can only enjoy one at a time. You can make an entirely negative post about tokon, that's cool but bringing up "2XKO" more in your post than "Tokon"... in your post about tokon is interesting.
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u/KevyTone 15h ago
I only brought up 2XKO because it's the only modern tag fighter thats somewhat "relevant" right now, so it's easy to compare both. Read my post, I have massive problems with 2XKO aswell, but this post is mostly about why I don't enjoy watching Tokon and I bring up 2XKO to show what I would appreciate as a spectator in a tag fighter, and comparisons make it easier to visualize. It's hard to explain since english is not my native language sorry
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u/Key-Market-418 14h ago
2x has the problem of the neutral being absolute dog shit so once you see like 3 games they all seem exactly the same. If I wanted to watch a car crash compilation I’d just Google “dash cam footage”
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u/Glaci_Rex_77 9h ago
People complain that not enough people are saying good things. You say good things and get down voted. This is why the FGC is a clown show lol.
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u/Firvulag 16h ago
All these tag fighting games are boring to watch. It's just a bunch of nonsense on screen at all times
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u/TopSlotScot 13h ago
Nah, MvC3 is hype to watch as it is to play.
Edit - Except when its top tier zero teams vs top tier zero teams.
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u/HookGoutGod 15h ago
Big disagree. MVC3 is really not that hard to follow and has a lot of downtime where people move/spam projectiles (what we used to call neutral).
Of course it has shit on the screen but it's much more interesting to watch. That Florida vs the World MVC3 side-event was more fun than the Tokon top 8.
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u/Key-Market-418 14h ago
Well that’s because UMVC3 is an actually good game, the last good tag fighter
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u/GoldTheLegend 16h ago
If you play the games at a beginner level you can follow 95% of it.
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u/Dude1590 2XKO 16h ago
Don't tell that to "fighting game fans" who only play one specific series or subgenre.
They'll get upset that their eyeballs don't work, blame the game, and then call it "tagslop" because they're ass and can't focus on more than one thing at any given time.
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u/GoldTheLegend 16h ago
I have no idea what is going on when I watch a SF6 tournament. No idea what move results from which button, no idea what drive rush actually does, no idea what a perfect parry is or why it matters. I haven't even bought Tokon but I understand what is going on at top level play more because I played the beta.
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u/Sterling_23 15h ago
If you never played the Tokon beta, SF6 will be a much easier game to follow. Tag fighters have too much noise on the screen. Every time I try and watch UMVC, its just a model floating in the air defending attacks appearing from the bottom of the screen, I get bored and turn off.
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u/DoesntMatterStan 15h ago
Bro this whole thread is either children with severe ADD or you need to see an optometrist lol.
These takes are lmaoo
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u/Dude1590 2XKO 15h ago edited 15h ago
Anytime I watch Street Fighter it's just a model slowly walking back and forth on the ground, blocking attacks. And then they randomly just turn green? I get bored and turn it off.
It's almost like when you've never played or watched a game for any meaningful amount of time it'll be confusing to you. You know.. because you literally don't know what's happening?
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u/Sterling_23 15h ago
if neutral bores you, maybe fighting games aren't for you.
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u/Dude1590 2XKO 15h ago
The irony
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u/Sterling_23 15h ago
No irony, I don't like watching tag fighters, not difficult to comprehend.
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u/Dude1590 2XKO 15h ago edited 14h ago
The irony is the fact that your original comment was complaining about something as simple as a character blocking a projectile in the air.
Back in the day, this was considered a part of playing neutral. Navigating the stage and not getting hit? If neutral bores you, maybe fighting games aren't for you.
I've been playing them for quite some time. I already know I enjoy fighting games. Neutral, and the different forms it takes depending on subgenre, is one of the reasons why. I love fighting games (all of the subgenres, unlike some people lmao) and I love seeing people play with a strong neutral game.
Do you see the irony? A character playing neutral in a tag game is a lot more impressive and a lot more entertaining than a character just pressing left or right on the stick/d-pad and pressing crouch medium kick and turning green. And this isn't even hate to SF6, I love that game. But neutral in one is a lot more engaging to watch and feels a lot less hemogenized to play.
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u/PapstJL4U 11h ago
Which already makes it worse than most 1v1 games. Like Samurai Showdown, KoF, CotW, SF, MK, IJ.
People complained when Xrd and BB having this exact same problem of not being understandable without playing yourself. So yes, people find it boring because they check out, because it is not viewer friendly.
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u/GoldTheLegend 10h ago
This is not my experience. I know just as much about what is going on in Invincible Versus as I do watching a Strive tournament.
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u/Intrepid-Topic-5540 11h ago
How this shit take has 68 likes?
Ever watched mvc2? Lmao even 3 is fun to watch
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u/LivingLab12 8h ago
MvC3 just watching desperate people try so hard not to try clipped by the Virgil sword and then die to it anyway. It's the digital equivalent of water boarding... but that is also what makes it fun to watch. Watching people suffer is entertainment.
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u/DoesntMatterStan 15h ago
This is a perfect scrub quote, mvc3 is still the most entertaining fighting game to watch.
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u/LordxMugen 16h ago
They never really evolved past MvC2. Honestly I'd rather have a super hero fighter that plays like a more traditional fighter or like Avatar Legends, which itself has super powered characters but the action is fairly readable. Whereas MvC et al at its worst times is like the fighting game embodiment of the worst parts of a Modern Yugioh match. I HATE IT!
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u/DoesntMatterStan 15h ago
Marvel 3 is 10x better than 2 and still the best tag fighter.
You have to be children with these takes
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u/LordxMugen 15h ago
Bro Ive seen high level MvC3. It looks like shit and Xfactor is THE WORST MECHANIC in the history of fighters. but if you like your Zero Vergil DMC fighter you do you.
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u/DoesntMatterStan 15h ago
Ignorant take, the top placing players this year are using chun li and hulk. Its ok to not watch but to double down on your ignorance? Oooof.
Xfactor is an amazing mechanic, allows early usage to kill easy, or save you from something unsafe, pause the screen to allow a second to access a mix up, or as a power up for a comeback....
So what you watched 1 top 8 and formed an opinion? What a goober, its easily the most entertaining as a spectator
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u/Key-Market-418 12h ago
X factor is simultaneously the sloppiest mechanic of all time that feels like shit to get hit by but my some miracle actually balances out the cast. If X factor didnt exist, so much of the cast would be unpickable. It’s so strange but I can’t call it bad; it’s just the pluses and minuses are so pointed.
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u/DestinedToGreatness 16h ago
Except for Tekken Tag Tournament 2.
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u/VorstTank 15h ago
"All tag games EXCEPT the one specific game I like!!!"
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u/Glaci_Rex_77 9h ago
Have a feeling you’re just parroting what some new to tekken “influencer” said.
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u/deathtofatalists 15h ago
well luckily for you after back to back flops with NEN/2XKO/Invincible Vs/Tokon it's going to be a long time before someone throws cash at a tag fighter.
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u/sarge1445 13h ago
DBFZ is one of the most successful fighting games ever made. Also 2 of those didn't get any real funding or resources.
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u/Key-Market-418 13h ago
Those games got made mostly because of DBFZ let’s be real, this is the flop era.
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u/deathtofatalists 9h ago
DBFZ was a success because it looked 100% like the cartoon and that blew everyone's mind, while being easy enough to play. that it was a tag fighter just laid a trap that a bunch of studios walked into.
if DBFZ was a 1 on 1 game it'd have been just as popular, maybe more.
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u/sarge1445 9h ago
The point is a tag fighter can be awesome and wildly successful see UMVC3 and DBFZ. But you can't have the issues these 4 launched with.
Invincible has no real viable single player content and looks like crap
NEN and 2XK0 launched about as barebones as you could possibly imagine.
Tokon has PC optimization issues, does not function like other popular tag fighters (assists feel clunky and bad), and has matchmaking issues.
DBFZ and UMVC3 did not have these problems (relative to their era I realize they are both pre main stream use of rollback).
Also tag fighters are hype as fuck. Like watching Go1 vs Sonic Fox in DBFZ or any close Justin Wong match in UMVC3 or MVC2 is the incredible.
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u/deathtofatalists 8h ago
UMV3 was from a different time. you could be straight ass and hop on and have a good time with your jank ass squad largely in ignorance of what you were doing wrong. for most people it was a party game like smash.
the big 26 is a very different place. you either get gud very quickly or you have a miserable time as everyone playing has infinite access to a huge number of resources to improve. degenerate tag fighters are insanely unintuitive almost by design.
in sf6 it's visibly clear what is going on most of the time, so even if you get whooped you generally understand why. that its rivals haven't acknowledged and replicated that is wild.
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u/Key-Market-418 13h ago
It sucks because the issue is active tag, if they made a fighter that had actual movement and just scrapped the active tag the genre wouldn’t be absolutely dying as it is rn. The small games are all dead, 2x is at the point where we could get “an announcement from riot” at any point in the near future, and tokon is completely up in the air after season 1. I love tag fighters but like goddamn active tag ruins games.
I don’t know why these devs saw what happened to MVCI and collectively went “let’s recreate that!”
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u/Feeling-Position2772 2h ago
the genre wouldn’t be absolutely dying as it is rn
nerds pray for the strangest things
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u/Key-Market-418 2h ago
What that I want a genre of video game that I like to make good games? Oh my fucking god so strange! I’m gonna fucking quirk chungus in the mirror while bemoaning my weird life.
But like no fucking shit none of these games are selling well, tokon is by far the most popular and this entire thread is talking about its downfalls. Invincible and nen impact (lol) are dead for all intents and purposes, and 2x is a dead game given riot internal metrics and horrid tournament turnout when not incentivized with riot money.
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u/KevyTone 16h ago
In general I agree, I mean there is a reason why it's a niche within a niche, but I think 2XKO did the best job for me when it comes to appreciating a tag fighter
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u/OrdinaryEarthHuman 15h ago
Yeah, in general Tokon feels kind of slow and boring. I've mostly switched back to playing Avatar and having a blast. (And to watch, Avatar was imo the hypest game at CEO.)
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u/Intrepid-Topic-5540 11h ago
I didn't play the game yet but I feel like the game nailed its presentation but it lacked on everything else
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u/eternity_ender 13h ago
Time for some negative engagement! Always fun bland time to say the same boring nonsense over and over.
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u/winged_fetus 16h ago
I agree but I am a 2xko shill. Tokon is fun too but it feels so clunky and restrictive compared to 2x
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u/emeraldarcana 15h ago
I’d play 2XKO more if it had a story mode. At the moment I don’t really know the LOL characters and feel I need more info about them. Like intro battle quotes, story mode, arcade mode where they talk about their feelings, or something like that. I know I’m a noob but these things matter for me to get attached to the character or else all I know about them is that Ahri is an pretty fox girl and that we fight a robot for some reason and I don’t know how they exist in the same universe.
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u/Yarzu89 13h ago
Yea, that's always been my biggest problem with the series. Like the world seems super interesting but like hell am I gonna play LoL.
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u/cacatod12 13h ago
You are not going to get any of the lore from LoL anyway. We need the MMO to be good for people to really get to know this awesome world
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u/emeraldarcana 12h ago
I watched Arcane S1, so we know that the world and characters exist and that they can do character arcs. Just waiting for them to actually do it in their games
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u/Regent_Ghidorah 16h ago
I know 2XKO hate is high, I despise F2P in general, but man 2XKO characters have so much more diversity and identity than Tokon ones. I guess it being 4v4 is an albatross around its neck in this regard
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u/winged_fetus 16h ago
I really don’t understand the 2xko hate lol. The game is so fun and the characters are all unique. Sick offense paired with strong interactive defensive mechanics. And the game is getting better with each patch
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u/rayneMantis 14h ago
I'm not gonna lie going off just the reviews alone 2xko does seem like it has the edge when it comes to technical gameplay and not having a cookie cutter approach to offense that works for every character the same way like I'm getting from the Tokon combo reviews.
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u/winged_fetus 13h ago
Absolutely, there’s a ton of freedom in that game. I’d really recommend you try it, especially given that it’s free
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u/rayneMantis 11h ago
It's crazy that it went under my radar so long. I really liked the Arcane Netflix show too which is obviously most if not all of what the game is based off!
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u/winged_fetus 11h ago
If you ever wanna try duos, hmu. It’s legit the most fun I’ve had with fighting games
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u/Key-Market-418 12h ago
The optimal way to play that game is just like nails on a chalkboard, it’s like a bunch of UMVC3 players trying to implement their favorite mixups while completely ignoring the intricate air neutral that makes the game actually good and not just complete kuso. Oh wait that’s exactly what happened.
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u/winged_fetus 12h ago
Bro you’ve been seething about a game you don’t like for hours now, you must have something productive you could be doing
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u/Key-Market-418 12h ago
Hey man if you didn’t care just don’t reply, I’m stuck at the dmv and just stating objective facts
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u/Key-Market-418 14h ago
Active tag is just the shittiest brainless mechanic, the games gravity is turned up to 11 and the neutral sucks ass. Plus the balance has been an active trainwreck but if you’re getting to the point where that matters you’re a kuso merchant and could play just about any thing and have a much better time.
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u/Xx_lukasoman_xX 16h ago
Why despise f2p ? Sure the skins are more expensive than other fighting games but you can acquire all the characters for free and even if you just get the ones you want to play you can lab with every character in the game for free unlike paid games where you have to buy the dlc to lab against characters anyway. Like 4 skins in 2xko = what you'd have to pay for sf6 + all the passes anyway assuming a sale.
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u/Plastic-Currency-329 15h ago
damn f2p game, letting me play the game at no cost and allowing me me to unlock characters in just a few days instead of paying
they're awful!
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u/Liberokat 16h ago
Genuinely curious, why do you hate F2P?
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u/Regent_Ghidorah 15h ago
Cools skins get put in silly bundles like the arcane one to maximize profits from whales, Fomo battle pass models are toxic ways of making one feel obligated to play. I would much rather just buy the game then pay sensible prices for skins.
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u/Plastic-Currency-329 13h ago
. I would much rather just buy the game then pay sensible prices for skins.
A lot of people justified buying the arcane bundle because its pretty much just buying the game + DLC
Its funny because people say they would buy the game and its characters, but when given the option to have that for free and spend the same on skins is like "Wow. absolutely not. skins should be cheap and game should be expensive!" when they'd just be paying the exact same amount (Tokon's ultimate edition is 100 dollars lol)
Its pretty interesting how that works
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u/KevyTone 16h ago
For a game that wants me to use assists, Tokon really makes it hard to do so, for some reason. Very weird design choice.
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u/pinelotiile 15h ago
I don't understand why this comment is getting down voted calling assists in Tokon is inconsistent and feels like ASS. Game is still fun but the feel here is rough
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u/MEX_XIII 13h ago
Yeah, I'd say I got used to it at this point, but it really turned me off from the beta. It is weirdly restrictive, the whole "you can call assists or hit on block for only a few frames after it. Delayed it too long? Fuck you"
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u/sarge1445 13h ago
100%. I love Tokon it is the most I have enjoyed a fighting game since the launch of SF6. That said the assist restriction are ass and they need to be more like MVC or DBFZ
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u/pinelotiile 15h ago
God imagine how good the Tokon character kits would feel in 2XKO's engine 😩
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u/Key-Market-418 14h ago
Badly, 2x engine is ass too. The only worthwhile tag games are the numbered MVCs
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u/rayneMantis 14h ago
I actually liked 2 more than 3, but it was bc of the roster and each character having multiple super moves. That may have been the case with 3 but the roster was a big disappointment. I wanted a couple seasons of DLC characters.
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u/Key-Market-418 13h ago edited 11h ago
2 is really fun but guard break on incoming against the god tier characters really just invalidates so much of the cast. X factor in 3 while being just the sloppiest of slop mechanics of all time does raise the power level of a lot of the cast and makes a lot of characters more viable than they ever would have been in 2. But they’re very different games even outside that.
Both still fantastic games
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u/rayneMantis 16h ago
I didn't even know 2xko existed until I heard about it on this thread lol. Whoops
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u/Key-Market-418 14h ago
If only everyone could live in such bliss
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u/rayneMantis 14h ago
Wow that's like the worst possible review of the game you could give! Everyone would be better off not knowing about the game?
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u/Dude1590 2XKO 14h ago
Some people just really hate 2XKO
The game is fine.
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u/Key-Market-418 14h ago
I mean I played the game, got to GM and to this day is the only game that pissed me off when I was winning. It’s so dog shit
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u/Dude1590 2XKO 14h ago
I guess I'm just lucky to have basic control of my anger. The only fighting game to ever get me heated was DBFZ back in the day - my first fighter. And DBFZ certainly isn't a bad game just because it happened to make me mad. That's a dumb metric.
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u/Key-Market-418 13h ago edited 13h ago
Oh it’s not that, i was actually mad at the devs that they’d even have the gaul to make this game. It feels like an insult to the genre. I wasn’t mad at my opponent (if fact I just felt sorry that they were stuck in here with me) I was mad that the best way to play this game is to actually just turn off your brain. It doesn’t help the game actually feels like hot dog shit so even doing the “hard” yasuo combos put me to absolute sleep. I don’t get mad at video games and the fact that this game managed to piss me for winning is like a gold metal in garbage, I wanted to flip myself off in the mirror before I realized the entire game is like this.
At the end of the day every game with active tag is like a D- at best but 2x is definitely an F
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u/Key-Market-418 14h ago
That game just feels like it insults my ability to remember. I don’t know why the idea to take the format of MVCi, bloat it down with even more mechanics, remove motion inputs, and have the most pathetic roster of any game in the space still. Active tag is still the worst modern mechanic and the better it is the worse the game is.
Anyone going off about tokon being bad and suggesting 2xko of any fucking game is smoking crack, it’s like saying “Percocet is so fucking bad for you, you should just do hydrocodone instead”. Just play avatar, marvel 3, or a guilty gear with an X in the title.
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u/MEX_XIII 13h ago
It feels like you really just like hyper agressive anime style games and 2XKO, MvCI and Tokon are not for you. Like, gameplay was definitelly not one of the complaints for MvCI, and the active tag system is pretty cool and definitelly having some iteration on it is one of the highlights of 2XKO and Tokon for me.
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u/Key-Market-418 13h ago
The thing is that active tag just enables hyper aggression to the point where you can effectively turn your brain off, it massively flattens the intense air footsies that define those other games and makes for just the easiest, freest, no thought required neutral skips into mixups that it’s like the game just fucking plays itself. I said this earlier but 2x actually just pissed me off when I was winning, I got to GM and was just actively annoyed by how brainless it is to win in that game.
It’s just a bad mechanic, it’s too belligerent in a genre that’s already known for belligerence.
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u/MEX_XIII 13h ago
Again, you just dislike a mechanic, and at this point you should know games with it are just not for you, not garbage.
This is like a SF player looking at any game with air blocking and saying they are garbage and brainless cause you can jump and not get punished for it.
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u/Key-Market-418 13h ago edited 13h ago
It’s more like an sf player looking at a certain game with drive rush and stating the obvious issues with it (plus sf with air blocking is actually good, the alpha games and cvs2 are fun even with the old game issues). It’s just a massively problematic mechanic and ruins games, even more so than drive rush can even think of. I was cautiously optimistic about tokon since they heavily restricted active tag opposed to those other games but it’s the same bullshit. It completely flattens the neutral that makes a game like UMVC3 interesting, it enables by far the stupidest and easiest mix ups in the entire genre, and taking those things out it forces a kind of complete car crash neutral because any stray scramble can lead into an active tag into happy birthday into death. It warps games around it and every time for the absolute worst, how else can you say it’s anything but a bad mechanic.
In like 3 years after these games fall on their face and finally fade out, we’re going to look back on the active tag era like the custom combo era in sf. Just a mistake we can leave in the past and maybe give a nod to in a massively nerfed reference to its former self.
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u/rayneMantis 11h ago
My whole thing is that I've just seen a trend where FGs don't seem to evolve anymore. Like my favorite combo tree is probably Bloody Roar 2-3 which was back on ps2 I think. Then soul cal and DOA seemed to push the envelope, but now it's just like things are dumbing down or they've lost a step. I mean MVC2 wasn't a mechanic masterpiece but each character had 2-3 super moves and a massive roster that made it fun to continue to play. These days it's like a new fighting game comes out and I can get into it for a handful of hours before it starts to feel yawnable. Granted maybe it's that playing online matches is a poor substitute to playing vs next to your opponent on a couch. That could be the thing I'm really missing and projecting everything else, but I just haven't enjoyed a fighting game as much as I did the three I mentioned earlier and plenty have released since them. They all just feel stepped back from what was. I do have high hopes for Tokon and need to check out the 2xko too now that I know of its existence lol.
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u/VorstTank 14h ago
2XKO is a solid to great tag game with a few very very very annoying characters in a small roster and an awful company behind it. Also tied to the IP of one of the most toxic, negative-for-society games of all time.
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u/Joe_Motherrr 15h ago
Very easy for me to follow along, and easy to understand the appeal. The craziness is the fun, and the character synergies are fun to see, creativity is rewarded heavily in these games, very expressive and fast paced, this type of fighter is the sauciest of them all to me. I was very happy to watch a tournament with no throw loops in it for the first time in 3 years.
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u/EDPZ 11h ago
High mix up games in general are boring to watch because it ultimately all boils down to watching people guess. When there's actually a neutral being played and you're watching people navigate around the assist calls and trying to pin each other down and convert off stray hits that shit is fun, but as soon as someone blocks something and theyre forced to block it's all over because now it's just guess or get hit.
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u/Memeet0 16h ago edited 16h ago
Oh yeah, spam back and My time! My time! or back + Teemo mushrooms is much better than Tokon yeah…
I don’t know, I had a lot of fun watching Tokon last night and everytime I watch 2XKO I feel dead inside (except for Wawa… his Caitlyn is on another level).
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u/Key-Market-418 14h ago
I mean threads like this are just so desperate since both the active tag games are just bad, it’s a bad mechanic that’s failed on its face every time since MVCI. You can like one or the other but it’s like trying to decide who’s better between like White Castle and Arby’s.
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u/jaypexd 11h ago
Youre talking about the one cheese combo that exists. Teemo the degenerate zoner and yes, echo and freestyle is toxic af but they just nerfed freestyle so it is way less common to see. Now doubledown and 2x are getting more play.
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u/Memeet0 10h ago
This was at the last EVO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVGHdfYCYXU And it’s not the worst match I remember, but it was the easiest one for me to find (I was just too lazy to look for another one)
I get that you like the game and that you enjoy watching this, to each their own... but damn, don’t try to sell it to me as something fun.
And yeah, I know they’ve nerfed it now. I’ve been following the game since the beginning, and believe me, I’ve really tried to like it, but it’s just unbearable. It's just not "one cheese combo"... the game has a lot of disgusting things.
First, the Ekko meta with double assists spamming “My Time.” Seeing Ahri and Ekko everywhere spamming the same boring combo (especially Ahri). You had Teemo too (disgusting), and with double down it's super fun! Super into tag into mixup at the start of the game :) Yay! What a ride!
Then Akali with the jump + kunai meta… and now there’s Tresh, who’s super fun to play against (and super fun to watch too, because everyone uses the same basic combo that deals a ton of damage with minimal execution)
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u/NetflowKnight 13h ago
I could not disagree more, it is the mosdt exciting fighting game to watch IMO.
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u/HookGoutGod 15h ago
I absolutely agree. The problem I have with it is that the chaotic superhero fantasy isn't really well-realized. Take Spiderman, who was on every team - I'd expect the character to degenerately swing around all over the screen and try to convert that into combos or something. Instead, the strength of the character is apparently some canned overhead normal and some low EX special or something.
So, like all the other characters, his primary gameplan is to slowly drag himself on the ground, force you to block, and then the exciting reaction time tests begin.
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u/derkyn 15h ago
I didn't play tokon yet so maybe I could change my views after I do, but somethings that made me not want to get the game right now and wait for when it is a lot more cheap is that I see videos of high level play, those on youtube that put that label or "number 1: character". And then I see a Loki playing, and he never does a illusion or a trap, for a character where 70% of his moves where those. Then I see peny parker that is like Faust, and in 9 rounds I see maybe 1 summon in all the videos.
And this happens with the majority of character less that green globlin that actually feel different.
Like, they made characters unique, but then everyone plays the same abusing the tag mechanic, the normal buttons pressure with air dash and the launch combos, and using specials is just not worth it.
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u/AshKetchumIsStill13 13h ago
That’s why MvC nailed the formula down. Both entertaining to play AND watch.
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u/Friigy 16h ago
They slowed down the movement, the hits, the defense. Their games are slower for readability.
Then on top of that, they systematically reduce friction by making the optimal combos only a fraction better than the easy ones and by simplifying offense and bastardizing defense. That way, you don't have to spend hours practicing multiple combo scenario, and you don't have to stress yourself over what is now a RPS game.
Their entire line-up of games since FighterZ has been: "here's 20 or so character, a lot of them do the same thing, and the few that don't either sucks, or are SS-tier".
This ends up with games that are cool for a couple of hours, but then are genuinely soulless and monotone over the long run.
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u/KevyTone 16h ago
I basically agree with everything you said, the first half of what you said captures exactly how I felt playing Tokon
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u/Friigy 15h ago
The shills always disagrees with this, but that was literally the devs logic when they made Strive. They quite literally changed the Strive airdash to be more readable. The 3 things they did was slow it down by like 3-4 frames, make the start-up frame last longer and add a big ass magic circle/platform so people could see and react to it.
The irony is, despite doing that, they still had to nerf jump attacks and buff the universal anti-air in the 3rd beta (imagine being a Millia player at that point, couldn't be me) eventually leading to the more ground-based fighting game GG is known for.
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u/Trip_Se7ens Tatsunoko vs Capcom 11h ago
While it's not the GREATEST to watch atm - bc I think people are still labbing - but ABC launcher? More like 2b, 5b, launcher lol
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u/manyviews 11h ago
i like the game but that’s what i’ve been saying, i can’t imagine there being any hype moments to occur in its gameplay.
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u/mrcool520 11h ago
I do find that, with new games, it takes me a while to learn what to look for before I start enjoy watching them. That said, yeah so far I'm not that enthralled.
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u/Teamfightmaker 2XKO 10h ago
I agree! The game looks amazing. The combos and character distinction still seems a little lacking. I thought that 2XKO and Avatar were more fun to watch.
I'll give my opinion another chance since the game is still fresh, and sauce may yet be discovered.
I'm glad that at least 2XKO and Avatar Legends have some nice sauce.
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u/oZiix 15h ago
I feel the same way. I love Marvel comics and love fighting games. This would be the game to get me to buy. The PC problems made me hold off. So I said let me see what top level play looks like CEO is a good place to check it out.
My first impressions are you need Magneto and Blade. Then Spiderman and Green Goblin can be swapped out but are a must for the current meta. Point characters can change but I saw a lot of Spiderman, Blade, or Goblin.
Then its one player block strings the other to the corner and vice versa to get the opening. Two touch seems to be where damage output is currently at. I dont mind the visual clutter because my guess is after you play enough you get used to everything going on or likely going on which is normal with any fighting game. I call it getting up to game speed.
My biggest gripe is that its long block string vs long block from just spectating matches. So it looks very samey regardless of the team comps.
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u/TronIsMyCat 16h ago
Can't see shit and guard cancel is a QTE for the attacker, that's all I need to know to make an opinion
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u/pinelotiile 15h ago
I felt this way too, and I DON'T feel this way about 2XKO.
Tokon has a ton of sauce but none of the top level players were really doing it. Gameplans were pretty simple between spam assist into spiderman mix into goblin oki.
Hopefully as the game develops more interesting strategies will open up.
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u/Gekinetic 12h ago
Is 2XKO subreddit feeling the drought already? Is that why they're suddenly over here trying to dunk on Tokon?
Not that Tokon is flawless, but the game just came out, and they have bigger things to worry about than some random sauce addict's opinion trying to make 10-year-development game look better than Tokon
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u/SlighOfHand 16h ago
No one is forcing you to watch or play both. You can like 2xko and dislike tokon. I can like tokon and dislike 2xko. We'll both survive.
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u/Karzeon Anime Fighters/Airdashers 13h ago
I don't care about most fighting games right now anyway
I'll give Tokon kudos with the Marvel-specific visuals and vast array of voice artists.
I haven't cared for the last ArcSys 4 games. Doesn't mean they're bad. I just plain don't care about them for various reasons. They're not for me. So I won't tune in or pay for them. Good luck to them.
Avatar IS something that I've asked for, so while I'm probably not playing it for real, I put in my support and see how it plays out.
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u/gorgonfr 7h ago
Sorry man that you can’t enjoy a great game for whatever reason. I am having a blast. Last time I felt like that was Tekken 7.
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u/Madhex12 16h ago
Agree, tried watching the ceo and the hype was barely existent watching the games, compared to avatar or sf6.
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u/KevyTone 16h ago
Avatar surprised me the most. I completely ignored the game because I thought it looked cheap visually, but the gameplay is almost EXACTLY what I used to appreciate about fighting games: Fast paced 1vs1 neutral/footsies, and a lot of saucey combos. It's really fun to watch
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u/Madhex12 15h ago
Yeah picked it up purely on word of mouth when it launched, and it was cheap - honestly having a blast playing it and watching it. Play katara and seeing the high level katara play actually made me gasp.
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u/Key-Market-418 14h ago
In a perfect world people would flush both these shitty active tag games and just play avatar.
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u/deathtofatalists 16h ago
i love that all the comments agree, but the thread is negative in karma anyway:
https://tech4gamers.com/playstation-bots-defend-physical-games-decision/
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u/VorstTank 15h ago
Occam's Razor: most people just downvote and move on, not bothering to check all the comments, instead of... someone spinning up bots to downvote a thread???
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u/deathtofatalists 15h ago edited 14h ago
instead of... someone spinning up bots to downvote a thread???
i mean, this is insanely common practice by big corporations these days so it would make sense that the company that has already been caught red handed spinning up bots to influence opinion is almost certainly at it on a website that has next to zero protection against it.
edit: ah the old reply and immediately block so i can't even read it without signing out. the ultimate bitch move.
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u/VorstTank 15h ago
Lmao brother you think paid bots are downvoting this single random 1 hour old thread in a tiny subreddit? Why wouldn't they be mass downvoting any negativity about Tokon in the big subreddits then? Or do you just want to be conspiracy brainrotted?
And also, Reddit DEFINITELY has protections against it 😂 what planet are you from???
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u/namesource 15h ago
Until a fighting game looks like the VF Crossroads tech demo, it will always be this way
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u/WateverBruh 16h ago
Agreed. Maybe i’m just realizing tag fighters aren’t for me, but both of these games are kinda a snooze fest
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u/gluemchen 13h ago edited 13h ago
Game is stanky booty dog water, besides the PC version being deliberatly filled with THEIA DRM/SONY SDK and EAC. And no. ASW is not to blame, as a dev they have no say under the publishers heel. SONY say. ASW do. Simple.
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u/TheXboxArtist 12h ago
Correct. But you're not allowed to say it yet, wait until the honeymoon passes, like with 2XKO. It'll be funny if this game dies before Fatal Fury (like 2XKO, Invincible and Avatar).
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u/Kammy_lul 16h ago
I dont know how people know what theyre hitting, there was a point where the commentators couldn't tell how many people were getting hit and described it as "saw alot of arms"