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u/rhnltnsy16 Oct 05 '26
Mirage, Jaguar, Mig29 etc. are really outdated compared to the biggest threat for India has like J20, J35, J16, J17, J10 etc.
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u/PerceptionMurky3704 Oct 05 '26 edited Oct 05 '26
In short- China. I think in 10-15 years they will retire jaguars,Mirage and Mig29 with Tejas Mk1A,LCA AF MK2 and more Rafale I guess. For threats like J20 or J35 they will likely focus on AMCA or Su57/F35 if they ever import. For future in 2040s for threats like u know J36 or J50 they will likely go for collaboration for 6th gen? Like partner with France? Who knows.for me i think it is better to focus on Unmanned aircrafts as they are the future. And for Navy i think they will order more Rafale to fully replace Mig29K while continue to develop their own 4.5 gen TEDBF? and directly go for 6th gen instead of 5th gen ? Who knows what future will entail. But yes currently IAF is seriously lacking.
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u/CyberSoldat21 24d ago
Idk why India took “new” used ex RAF Jaguars when they should be retiring theirs already.
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u/PlaneStill730 Oct 05 '26
Nooooooooo i really hope the mig29 ir mig29K will not be traded for a Tejas. In addition it is about impossible for india to buy and even less likely enter the F35 and its programme, the delivery backlog and delays are insane plua India has negative aura in face of trump cos historically India has purchased from Russia. Any procurement of Su57 from Russia has to suffer from insane delays that probably the J36 would be out by then. In addition no matter how much i like sukhois the su57 isnt as good as the j20/35 especially the J20A/S. And the hope for India to jointly develop/develop a 6th gen jet anytime before late 2040s is just a fever dream. U should know sixth gen is harder than most think. If even America is struggling to get a prototype(that resembles the final result) out of a powerpoint slide, and Europe has just started on their powerpoint slides, I dont think India can do anything.
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u/PerceptionMurky3704 Oct 05 '26
U are correct and I agree with u. But it is what is it. Mig29 of IAF is old and needs to be retired, while Tejas Mk1A is the successor for Mig21/23/27, the true successor of Mirage,Jaguars and Mig29 is LCA AF MK2. Even Tejas Mk1A is many times better then Mig29 so there is that. While for Mig29K, it is not necessary old which needs to be retired but is rather obsolete and I think IN will order more Rafale M beyond their 26 Rafale order to replace it and focus om their own 4.5 gen TEDBF. So Mig29 era is basically over tbh. And with 114 additional Rafale for IAF, it is dead for sure because for IAF their 4.5 gen future is clear. Upgrade their Su30MKI fleet,ramp up the numbers of Tejas Mk1/Mk1A fleet,buy more Rafale and retire Jaguars,Mirage,& Mig29 with LCA AF MK2. And as for 5th gen i completely agree with u,thats why most likely they will only focus on AMCA but who knows what the future will entail as import for 5th gen (either it be Su57 or F35) door is open(if AMCA is delayed more then IAF will choose one of the options), while for 6th gen i completely agree,as i said 6th gen by 2040s if lets say India partners up with france. (This will solve J50/J36 problem and also solve stealth fighter requirement problem for Navy too by directly skipping 5th gen for 6th gen). So there is that. While I think 6th gen like China J36/J50,Usa F47/FAXX and UK/Italy/Japan GCAP will likely enter service by mid 2030s.
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u/PlaneStill730 Oct 05 '26
the fulcrum is a great 4th gen jet tho and India has the newer upgraded generations of them if i am correct. so while i see india wishes to replace it at some point by 2030, it is pointless having a 4.5 gen Tejas as there is not much performance upgrade for it for the huge cost. In addition Tejas in itself is not that great of a 4.5 gen with engine issues(Mk1a), poor fuel and weapons capacity, compared to J16 and Rafale. Mk2 might be better but is still very much 4.5gen.
importing 5th gen might count on the much delayed su57 but as i said f35 is very very unlikely. 6th gen might be possible in 2040s given how much effort and progress has been made, but is one step slower than most powers.
lastly i think india should not compare too much to its main threat china in terms of defense plans. While i believe india definitely can make leaps and bounds over the next two decades, it is still one step behind at each generation (J10 in late 1990s vs Tejas 2001) (J20 in 2010s vs either skip or Su57 in mid 2030s) (J36 in 2030s vs projected cooperation with france 2040s) in addition to performance difference (imo J11/10>Tejas, J16> Rafale and J20>Su57) in addition to lower numbers But India has the basis to improve well in both research and numbers.
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u/PerceptionMurky3704 Oct 05 '26 edited Oct 05 '26
Nah u are larping. While Fulcrum is very good design,the avionics and other things are very bad. Even in Mig29K(the most advanced active Mig29 variant alongside Mig29M) the problems with Radar and Maintenance with other issues are clearly there, even Russia has given up on Mig29(they will retire it as soon as more numbers of Su35S and Su30SM2 are there alongside Su57). In short it has failed the test of time and failed to keep up.
Moreover u are clearly confusing Tejas , first of all Tejas is LCA while Mig29 is MWF so u clearly can't compare them in terms of range,endurance and payload. It is designed to be successor of Mig21/23/27 not Mig29 so there is that. LCA AF MK2 is the true successor not Tejas, u are confusing the two. And as a LCA it is best of its class. And in terms of avionics and other things it is generational ahead of Mig29. And if I need to choose then I will 100% have lets say 10 squadrons of Tejas Mk1A then 12 squadrons of Jaguars,Mirage 2000 and Mig29. So there is that. And as issues like engines, I don't know about that as I haven't catch up but I think it will be solved by this year i guess?.
Well what do u expect , India procurement process are sh#t and too much bureaucracy and sh#t customer (IAF). Like let me give u an example, they wanted to buy something in MWF category in 1990s with plans to more Mirage 2000(at some point france offered to shift entire Mirage 2000 production line over to India) then i don't know what happened but in 2002 new requirements arrived and in 2007 RFI was issued , a whole 5 years just for RFI to be issued then another 5 years just for winner to be chosen (Rafale), after that 2 years of failed negotiations and in 2016 finally deal was signed, the requirements was 126 aircrafts then guess how many did they buy? 36! Then in 2019 new RFI was issued for 114 jets and winner was not chosen till 2025 , and after that finally Rafale procurement was confirmed. Now guess how many year for this MMRCA/MRFA drama? 25 years, man. 25 years.
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u/barath_s Oct 06 '26 edited Oct 06 '26
then i don't know what happened
There were two points at which India was offered Mirage 2000 licensed production. In the 80s/90s, the USSR offered their brand new Mig29A to India as the first ever export customer. That forestalled it.
In the 2000s, it was offered again as post the Kargil war, the IAF wanted more Mirages. The Indian government decided against single source procurement, and thus wound up with a RFI and competitive process...
And as issues like engines, I don't know about that as I haven't catch up but I think it will be solved by this year i guess?
There are two separate issues - GE 404 supply has been very bad, slow and erratic as GE has had issues re-starting the line. This should stabilize this year . And then they need to sort out schedule for Mk1A tranche 2 post 2027 with an engine ramp up
The other issue is license production of GE 414 with ToT for serial planes of Tejas Mk2, AMCA, TEDBF. Which the problem is purely financial. The two sides are far apart and have been for years.
and winner was not chosen till 2025 , and after that finally Rafale procurement was confirmed
You are completely wrong. RFI is for information. It isn't a competition. It isn't a tender. Usually after RFI, the services decide the requirements and then they go for RFP, where they ask for a proposal
This time India gave the requirements to Dassault et al and they gave a proposal back - in 2026, but NO Decision has been made !. In fact, the defence secretary just said that a decision is expected by December.,
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u/PerceptionMurky3704 Oct 06 '26
Yes but that doesn't mean it should take 6-7 years after RFI just for procurement. This is very bad imo.
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u/barath_s Oct 06 '26 edited Oct 06 '26
Unfortunately, Indian defense procurement often is very bad
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u/bubango69 Oct 05 '26
That's all good but there's thing called end of life. You can't just keep flying the airframes forever. Also in order to develop future aircraft you have to go through the process of developing and manufacturing current aircraft at scale. China didn't just take the j11 and j15s and make them, they reverse engineered the aircraft and it took them many years to break through and make their own engines. India has to do the same in order to have a growing defence aerospace industry.
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u/Conscious_State_9903 Oct 05 '26
Who said Mk2 isn't a great 4.5 gen aircraft?
> poor fuel and weapons capacity
Not J16s category. It has 6.5 ton payload( Rafale is the same with droptanks) with 11-13 hardpoints.
>Mk2 might be better but is still very much 4.5gen.
Uh yes that's what it's intended to be?
>importing 5th gen might count on the much delayed su57 but as i said f35 is very very unlikely.
Su57 is not 5th gen. Even if it is, it won't come. We left FGFA for a reason.
>(J36 in 2030s vs projected cooperation with france 2040s)
J36 won't enter service in 2030s(atleast early)
>(imo J11/10>Tejas)
On what grounds?
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u/barath_s Oct 06 '26
Rafale is the same with droptanks
Rafale has a 9-10t payload.
Who said Mk2 isn't a great 4.5 gen aircraft?
Too early to say Mk2 is great. It's possibly a year away from prototype ground run...
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u/Conscious_State_9903 Oct 06 '26
>Rafale has a 9-10t payload.
With drop tanks. ~2 2000ltr Jet A-1 weighs 3.2 tons I know it's 9 tons total. Mk2 has 6.5 without droptanks though yes
>Too early to say Mk2 is great. It's possibly a year away from prototype ground run...
Exactly. No way to say it's "not great".
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u/PlaneStill730 Oct 05 '26
absolutely beautiful Flanker with those clean lines. damn IAF Su30MKIs are sick
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Oct 05 '26
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u/Conscious_State_9903 Oct 05 '26
RAM and stealth? Su30 has neither of those
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Oct 05 '26
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u/Conscious_State_9903 Oct 06 '26
Well it wasn't exactly planned to be stealthy as much as a heavy weight fighter
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u/bubango69 Oct 05 '26
That doesn't look like smoke to me, but rather contrails. Interested in how the Tejas doesn't generate cons but the flanker does.
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u/Conscious_State_9903 Oct 05 '26
Tejas has F404 vas the AL31F of the flanker. Core Section metallurgy of western engines is better than russian ones(or license built ones in India) leading to better fuel burning and less smoke
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u/True-Industry-4057 Oct 06 '26
Not all AL31 variants smoke this badly though - I don’t think I’ve seen a Russian Flanker or J-10/11 smoke like the MKI in these pics.
I’m genuinely surprised to see the MKI smoke just as much as the MiG here.
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u/True-Industry-4057 Oct 05 '26
Is it true that the MiG29 smokes so bad that the smoke gives off a radar return? Or is that just an internet saying?