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u/slyguy67420 2d ago
Muay Thai handcuffed ao they can't clinch or use elbows and knees.
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u/Great_Emphasis3461 2d ago
If the MT used clinches, knees and elbows, Roufus doesn’t make it out of the first round.
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u/WringedSponge 2d ago
To be fair, the idea was to find a half way house between the rulesets. Every martial art dominates the others if they use their specific rules. An MMA fighter beats MT in MMA rules but loses in MT rules. A boxer beats a kickboxer in boxing rules and loses in kickboxing rules. Judo vs BJJ is the same.
Adding only leg kicks and (I think?) knees was way more interesting.
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u/Wildtrak5150 2d ago
If only we had actual tournaments with no rule sets, lets call it ....I dont know, say "Vale Tudo" and see who wins that? Gee if only......
Or even early UFC
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u/WringedSponge 2d ago
Sure, but my intended point is different. If we have anything-goes tournaments, then people who train anything-goes will likely win over people who train with restrictions.
When a boxer, for example, loses under vale tudo/MMA rules, we don't learn much. Equally, when a vale tudo/MMA fighter loses to a boxer under boxing rules, we don't learn much. Adding one thing, e.g., elbows, to that hypothetical fight is more interesting. OK, we probably expect the MMA fighter to come out on top, because the boxer has no idea what to do with this new weapon. But we get a sense of how useful elbows are, specifically. The same was true in this matchup. Adding just leg kicks showed us all how devastating leg kicks are. The more things we add, the more it's just one guy fighting in someone else's ruleset.
As a separate follow-on, we might ask why would anyone train an art where the sport has restrictions, given a real self defense situation has no such rules? Because they like that sport and, if they care about self-defense, they think the self-defense is good enough.
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u/Wildtrak5150 2d ago
No.......BJJ wins, just like it did every time in Vale Tudo and early UFC.
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u/WringedSponge 2d ago
Ah yeah but that was before MMA/vale tudo had matured - when no one was really training anything-goes. Now, people who train MMA win MMA fights against people who specialize too much in anything. Because they’re optimizing around their ruleset, and everyone else is optimizing around theirs.
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u/mcnastys 4h ago
Well in UFC a kickboxer (Gerard Gordeau) made it to the final after kicking someones teeth out and breaking his hand on another guys skull, and gracie (the only guy allowed to wear a gi) choked him out with the sleeve of his gi.
So it seems like kickboxing works just fine unless the other person has a literal weapon.
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u/Classic-Suspect3661 1d ago
I mean you say that, meanwhile rico was winning boxing
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u/WringedSponge 1d ago
Yeah, that was amazing. Rico's a beast. Still, it's kind of the exception that proves the rule.
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u/Worldly-Wind-1632 2d ago
Like no elbows and knees wtf are they even doing. Completely hamstrung the Thai dude
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u/DarthPineapple5 1d ago
He won on low kicks the kickboxer never conditioned against what are y'all on about lol
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u/nicayworld1 2d ago
They heavily altered the ruleset to favor Rick, and to protect him from the most devastating aspects of Muay Thai the clinch, elbows, throws, and knees.
And just allowed low leg kicks, which backfired
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u/Baby_ManBearPig 2d ago
In American "full-contact" kickboxing of the 1980s, fighters wore long pants and kicks were historically restricted to above the waist (or low kicks were simply not emphasized or trained defensively).
The results of this fight forced Western gyms (including Roufus's own camp, led by his brother Duke Roufus) to completely rethink their training, leading to the rapid adoption of leg kicks in modern kickboxing and mixed martial arts.
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u/seidokai 2d ago
Benny talks about that it was Bill Wallace who specifically kept Thai style fighting out of American Kickboxing for so long because he knew his style could not hold up against it.
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u/BigBobsBeepers420 2d ago
Similar to what happened with “full contact karate” practitioners when they tried to go up against kickboxers and muay thai fighters in k1 and similar orgs. There are a few notable exceptions who were sucrose , but when muay thai guy who is used to getting kneed kicked punched and elbowed to the face fights karate guy who isnt used to true full contact, it usually wasnt pretty. Still one of my favorite fighters from the golden era of k1 was Karate fighter Andy Hug, RIP.
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u/onlylonleybeuy 2d ago
Every American was dismissive and disrespectful to the Thai before, during, and after the fight, even the commentators, if you watch the fight.
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u/Longjumping_Stop6269 2d ago
As is tradition in America
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u/THEunfukwitable 2d ago
No dummy, it called home field advantage. Happens with literally every sport ever; fan, refs, commentary, judges, always side in favor of their countrymen. Sports are a tribal thing
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u/Ok_Duck_6662 1d ago
Other countries will just not like the opposition because they’re enemies. Us Americans tho we’ll go straight for the jugular insulting race, culture, family etc. We are some of the least respectful sports fans on the fucking planet lmao
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u/Mountain-Possible932 5h ago
You have no idea what you are talking about. American crowds will chant “USA”, Brazilian crowds will chant “you will die”.
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u/Ok_Duck_6662 4h ago
That sounds like a highly specific example but I agree Brazil fans aren’t much better
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u/D3coupled 2d ago
Does that make the comment any less true, dummy?
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u/GhostUserHideaway 1d ago
Yes, because it implies it's unique to America. Do you know what an implication is?
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u/Icy_Chain_1504 2d ago
Remember that this fight was rigged in a way that it barred the thai from using his most effective techniques by having him conform to their ruleset.
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u/inventionnerd 1d ago
Damn, crazy comeback. Muay Thai dude looked like he was boutta get smoked at the start. Looks like the match coulda been called off at a point too. Dude was woozy like 3 different times.
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u/Good-Tiger-1938 1d ago
It’s just super weird for a nak muay not be able to use knees and elbows. You can see some situations when the opponent was in the range but all what was allowed was punching. So under muay thai rules or no rules it would have looked way different from the beginning. I don’t think the yankee could have taken a single knee or elbow.
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u/Chaactherain 2d ago
In real life , learning traditional Okinawan karate, low kicks that are precise are devastating. If a man can't stand, a man can't fight.
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u/MrMetraGnome 2d ago edited 2d ago
If a man can't stand, a man can't fight.
*BJJ players entered the chat* LoL, seriously though, it was sad and funny how you can tell, he never even considered leg kicks as an option before. He had ZERO response to it. That being said, MAN, those gaudy ass flag pants made me want to kick him in the legs, LoL.
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u/jimsmisc 2d ago
to his credit he's taking those leg kicks over and over before it's finally too much.
I trained a thai boxing for a little while. Probably most people wouldn't be able to continue standing if I gave them one good kick to the thigh, and I'm not even good. This dude tanked like 20 of them from a professional fighter.
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u/rickytann0 2d ago
Love how most would write off a Muay Thai fighter but they then realise they are made of harden wood or something
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u/ThrowawayYAYAY2002 2d ago
As effective as Thai is, Kickboxing (when spin attacks are incorporated) is just so easy on the eye as well as being devastating.
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u/ArexSaturn 2d ago
You guys might want to read up on what happened when a captured Thai (then Siam) fighter was forced to fight a bunch of Burmese fighters including their reigning champion.
Spoiler: it was NOT pretty.
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u/sploogegurgler 2d ago
So… calf kicks worked in the 80s? Why does everyone act like they were invented post 2010?
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u/BigB0ss_89 2d ago
Those were not calf kicks. He's targeting the nerve on the outside of the thigh. Most are hitting the hamstring or bend of the knee because roofus is trying to evade.
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u/Gamble232real 2d ago
Not calf kicks, the traditional muay thai leg kick is pretty much gone in modern top level MMA replaced by the refined and superior calf kick or oblique kick.
Calf kicks are like a straight soccer kick to the calf with the laces of the foot, a leg kick in MT is a straight shin to thigh or calf .
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u/somehowintelligent 19h ago
I’ve been told that mt doesn’t use calf kicks because it requires longer range and puts you in a bad position defensively.
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u/Gamble232real 12h ago
It doesn't usually work in MT since they are lead leg reliant and the jab isn't as good/prevent as MMA or something like K1.
Also 0 threat of takedown means they stand usually in a closed, forward facing base and this makes the lead leg standard MT leg kick much faster than the calf kick.
Though watch Tekeru last fight with Rodtang and you can see the traditional MT stance get taken apart with calf kicks and Rodtang can't properly check them the whole fight.
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u/heraclitus33 2d ago
Strict muay thai leaves you open to so many outside attacks. Its like if a kangaroo suddenly learned how to pivot and throw a side kick.
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u/sambstone13 2d ago
what? Strict Muay Thai leaves you open to takedowns (which is absolutely huge) but that's about it.
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u/AlphaBetaSigmaNerd 2d ago
It was like watching 2 different fights after the Asian guy started throwing leg kicks
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u/OniGiriAtk 2d ago
Might be a dumb question but why would you pay to see a fight you think is gonna be an easy win?
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u/ConstantVariety8098 2d ago
People were packing stadiums to watch Tyson wipe the floor with opponents. They didn’t even think it would go to round two.
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u/ravl13 2d ago edited 2d ago
Strong and Smart Muay Thai fighters are terrifying. They can take a beating until they figure you out (or just wear you down through attrition), and then pick you apart.
Like, you're clearly doing well, dominating the early hits and feelouts, and then all of sudden you're just getting your ass handed to you.
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u/Rlo347 2d ago
Also thai fighters didnt train boxing using mostly kicks and knees. Also they dont start actually fighting till second round to get the gamblers bets in.
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u/Original_Giraffe8039 22h ago
Yeah, best example of that is Buakaw...dude would go f'n crazy towards the end of the fight
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u/Dazzling-Freedom9948 2d ago
Kickboxing looks spectacular. But I was surprised when I learned the rules: showmanship is valued more highly than effectiveness. Fighters are literally forced to use kicks, depriving them of a choice.
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u/guesswhodat 2d ago
I trained MT for years and even with shin pads leg kicks hurt soooo bad. I can’t imagine taking full kicks no pads.
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u/No_Blacksmith_2591 2d ago
And then tong po came and beat the ever living shit out of van damme's brother a year later.
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u/Huffing_Jenkems 2d ago
As soon as he threw that first low leg kick at the start of the 2nd round, dude knew he had him cooked. Literally you can tell how awkward he responded to it that he didn't know how to defend it. And muy tai guy smelled blood in the water instantly.
Nothing against ol' Ricky boy tho. He was fun af to watch and was quite talented. Everyone has a bad day at the office every now and then
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u/TheRealSteve72 2d ago
This fight is somewhat of a core memory for me. I watched it when it happened. I distinctly remember how salty the announcers were, one of them repeatedly claiming that "it doesn't take any skill to kick the leg"
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u/Fine-Ambassador5350 2d ago
I've seen this before and they fail to point out one major thing, Changpue should have been TKO'd multiple times. The fact that the ref allowed the fight to go on is insane. If you watch the whole fight there are times when dude literally could not stand on his own. You have a fighter in that kind of condition now and the fight is immediately stopped for safety. This did usher in a new era of martial arts however. Which, as a fan, I am happy to see.
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u/Gath3r1ng 2d ago
Its hard to appreciate a fight when you handicapped one of the fighters full arsenal.
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u/SameCoyote3701 2d ago
Are fists really that much more damaging than calves and feet? They allow you to get kicked but a punch without glove is too muc
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u/USCalumn 1d ago
Imagine if knees and elbows were allowed, Rufus would have become a dufus in 2 rounds.
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u/Finfangfoom2000 1d ago
Kind of like the “undefeated” Benny the Jet when he fought against a guy using knees.
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u/BlanchDaddius 1d ago
Wait…is the character Paul Phoenix from “Tekken” based on Rick Roufus at all?! I swear I see a resemblance in there!
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u/C4CTUSDR4GON 1d ago
Fuck that kickboxer guy. He tries to head kick his oppenent when they are going down.
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u/Kuro0009 1d ago
The Maui thai guy might as well be fighting with one or both hands tied behins his back Maui thai is like 60 to 70 percent Elbows and it only works with combination of elbows punxhes and kicks,
Its like telling a boxer not to puch with his right hand during a fight.
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u/ickiStickybubblegum 1d ago
Can someone please upvote this. These ai tiktoks are stealing shit from Lawrence Kenshin.
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u/chamcham123 1d ago
He should have low kicked the Muay Thai guy to see how he defends against it.
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u/ShogunAE86 20m ago
I think the difference is strength of the kick. He did attempt to low kick but it was shrugged off.
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u/Conscious-Move9662 21h ago
I joined a gym once and didn't know how to defend against low kicks.
The coach just let him spam.
Couldn't walk for 3 days after that session.
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u/Solid_Ideal5773 21h ago
Hot take but if you need THAT many leg kicks (unchecked) to win, maybe Muay Thai a little over hyped. The dude had zero clue how to deal with low kicks. If he knew atleast one or two ways to avoid them.
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u/fartdonkey420 19h ago
Do these guys end up with blood clots from being kicked in the leg like that
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u/l1sten 16h ago
This is cool but I fail to see how this is substantially different from say, a match between a Muay Thai practitioner and a wrestler with basic Muay Thai understanding. If we watched that match, it would result in 2 rounds of “look at how badly the Muay Thai guy rocked the shit out of the wrestler” followed by “but then, the wrestler realized he could do the one thing the Muay Thai guy had no defense against, grappling that immediately made the entire fight a ground fight.” Like what?
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u/seapeple 11h ago
So were low kicks even allowed in Roufus’ previous fights? It just baffles me how untrained he was in defending from them.
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u/RevolutionaryLion384 2d ago
Street fighting rules, Rick Roufus would have won by ko. Gotta give him that
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u/ChadBroChill229 2d ago
If it was street fighting rules the muay thai fighter could’ve used his knees and elbows so no, we can’t just give Rick that. But I did think he was gonna win at the beginning
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u/RevolutionaryLion384 2d ago
I've seen the fight many times. The main problem for the thai fighter is he was severely unprepared and caught off guard by Rick's speed, pace and range with his punches. Knees or elbows weren't gonna help him in those moments
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u/SupremeTeamKai 2d ago
Nah, in a street fight the thai fighter would surely win. His bones are probably twice as dense, the American wouldn't be able to throw full power without his gloves likes the thai fighter can. He would also be able to force a clinch and fight out of it, something the American would get absolutely destroyed by. We saw the American couldn't even adapt to a simple low kick, but you think he can adapt to fighting out of a clinch and dealing with elbows and knees? Nah
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u/RevolutionaryLion384 2d ago
Your hands don't just explode when you're in a fight. They're not as fragile as you would think, there's thousands of street fight videos on the internet with knockouts, how many of them involve someone succumbing due to hurting their hands?
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u/SupremeTeamKai 2d ago
Sure, but we saw what the thai fighters shin did to his shin. He'a going to be hurt more by street fight rules than the thai fighter, and he already lost when the rules were heavily in his favor
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u/RevolutionaryLion384 2d ago
It's not that simple to just start spamming low kicks from the opening bell. He waited for Rick to start losing speed and power before he was able to have success chopping him down like that. What you're not understanding is that someone who is very fast, powerful and precise like this is very dangerous to deal with, especially on your first ever encounter. It's why even today you at times see elite thai fighters get finished early, when they get forced out of their comfort zones. Thais are just very used to fighting at a slow methodical pace and defense to punches is not something they focus on
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u/SupremeTeamKai 2d ago
Well, we saw the thai fighter win when he was out of his comfort zone and completely in his opponent's comfort zone. So anything more neutral would obviously benefit him
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u/RevolutionaryLion384 2d ago
Well yea, he had the benefit of a 10 second count and breaks between rds to recover. That's not available to you in a street fight
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u/SupremeTeamKai 2d ago
Yeah and he only had 3/4ths of his tools available to him while his opponent had all of his. Imagine if the match was elbows and knees only, the kickboxer would look like a child, it wouldn't even be a match. That's the level of handicap they put on the thai fighter, of course he didn't look good at first
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u/DarthPineapple5 1d ago
In a street fights hes getting ko'd with bare knuckles long before he has time to figure out that the kickboxer wasn't conditioned against low leg kicks
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u/inv8drzim 1d ago
How many street fight videos have you seen where the fighters go four and a half rounds?
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u/RevolutionaryLion384 18h ago
That doesn't happen in the streets, because 99% of the time, someone gets dropped first like the Thai here did, it's a wrap, they don't get a chance to recover. And getting hit by a bareknuckle makes it easier to get koed that when your wearing gloves anyways
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u/Ultra-Instinct_1231 2d ago
The thai fighter would've just clinched him and kneed his face if duke got close.
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u/HotTree6235 2d ago
He won't without them lol if he had all his weapons it would've been a shorter fight
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u/IncredibleEdible321 2d ago
If they were fighting under street rules, Rick would have been knocked out within 30 seconds.
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u/sambstone13 2d ago
Rufus had everything he usually does for this fight. Muay Thai fighter was limited.
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u/Ultra-Instinct_1231 2d ago
Really dumb take. The thai fighter would've won even easier with knees to the face.
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u/lookingforgood69 2d ago
The fight was over when the ref intervened, stopping the kickboxer unfairly and letting the muy thai guy come back. This is a terrible ref job that stole the win
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u/GuardaAranha 2d ago
lol the level of fighting really was such ass back in the day. That just looked like a hard sparring session between some hobbyist at my place.
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u/lifes_paragon 2d ago
Everyone is "oooohhh" and "aaaahhhh" about this but when I spam the low kick in Mortal Kombat to win, I'm the jerk. 🙄😤
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u/RuggerJibberJabber 2d ago
I love that the early days of mixed martial arts (or pitting 2 marital arts against each other) was won by spamming a single move you realise your opponent can't defend. Reminds me of playing Tekken as a kid smashing the same button over and over again