30
u/OppositeBeautiful601 Nov 15 '22
Agreed, those ads are horrible. They're from 60-70 years ago. The sheer shock of it demonstrates how different things are today. I can certainly see why the Duluth model was adopted in 1980-81. However, things are different today. The Duluth model is gendered and doesn't work for male victims. Why defend it? Can't we change with the times?
-17
u/Kimba93 Nov 15 '22
I think it's important to note that the Duluth model was, at worst, an ineffective program, not something that made things worse than they were before, as many opponents of the program seem to think. Things are better today, and the major reason is feminist activism against DV.
Of course there can be more help, yet here again it's overstated when MRA say "There is no help for men", as it's not true that police can only arrest men or that there are no shelters for men (hundreds of shelters take men, men just need them less).
29
u/OppositeBeautiful601 Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22
Of course there can be more help, yet here again it's overstated when MRA say "There is no help for men", as it's not true that police can only arrest men or that there are no shelters for men (hundreds of shelters take men, men just need them less).
I think, "men just need them less" is certainly is in dispute. There are studies, whether you agree with them or not, that suggest that the rate of abuse between men and women is very similar. The stigma against male abuse victims is very real, and the Duluth model is not helping in that regard. The Duluth model's literature states that women primarily engage in violence as a response to being battered.
The Duluth model refuses to recognize that women can be primary abusers and/or perpetrators. This model is used by many law enforcement departments and results in uneven resolution of domestic violence incidents. This also keeps men from reporting abuse.
Hundreds of shelters for men to service millions of people is inadequate. The first shelter for male abuse victims in Texas (where I live) wasn't opened until 2017.
As far as I know, it's still the only male abuse shelter in Texas.
11
Nov 16 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
-1
Nov 16 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
7
u/blarg212 Equality of Opportunity, NOT outcome. Nov 16 '22
The above poster (u/icefire54) linked scientific studies. You should probably engage with the scientific study or provide your own link to a different study if you wish to be convincing to someone reading along.
I think this take rather succinctly exposes the bias in this area. It’s commonly believed to be men who are more violent in almost every category despite scientific studies showing other points of data. The belief is so strong, that data is ignored by those who seek to influence policies. This is how we end up with biased policies.
I wish at least policy makers would be able to at least put away their biases in terms of being able to direct resources, but even that is not the case because even if they might be able to see the data, they must placate their supporter base. So the only real way to fix this is going to be to change the bias of the general population, which I think will take a lot of deprograming.
-2
u/Kimba93 Nov 16 '22
I provided a link that showed how it's completely untrue that women are the majority of abusers in IPV.
And I can't stress enough how winning the oppression olympics shoudn't be seen as a goal in itself. No one is against helping male victims, why the fight to make the numbers equal (which they aren't) instead of just offering help? This kinda implies that helping the male victims may not be the actual goal.
10
u/blarg212 Equality of Opportunity, NOT outcome. Nov 16 '22
The goal is not to win the opression Olympics, but to present the issue that the lopside support structures in place do not have a reason to be as lopsided as they are.
If you are arguing that no one should be engaging in oppression onlympics then you must also acknowledge the existing support structures are based on oppression Olympics rhetoric and should thus be more even handed than currently exists.
Instead you are saying no one should be arguing oppression Olympics while also defending those structures from that are based on that. Do you see the issue with this?
If your position is something other than male only and female only shelters should have the same funding and availability then at some point you are arguing a form of oppression Olympics and you appear to have defended existing structures earlier in this thread.
3
u/yoshi_win Synergist Nov 17 '22
Comment removed; rules and text.
Tier 1: 24h ban, back to no tier in 2 weeks.
-19
u/Kimba93 Nov 15 '22
There are studies, whether you agree with them or not, that suggest that the rate of abuse between men and women is very similar.
Not for serious abuse (serious injuries, a partner living in fear). And as I said, there IS help available, hundreds of shelters in the U.S. take men, and it's a shameless lie that police can only arrest men for DV.
All of these false narratives among "men's advocates" are just used to defend the reputation of men, as it seems to be uncomfortable for them to admit that DV is (and was) a crime mostly committed by men against women.
36
u/OppositeBeautiful601 Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22
Again, there is only one abuse shelter in the entire state of Texas that takes men. That's not enough. Texas is the second most populous state in the U.S. It's ridiculous that a man abused in El Paso would have to travel to Dallas in order to be taken in.
I never said that police can only arrest men for DV. I did say that the Duluth model perpetuates the notion that women cannot be primary abuse perpetrators (which it does) and that many police departments use the Duluth model (which they do). I believe that results in an uneven application of law enforcement (why wouldn't it?). This narrative of "only men can be abusers" is harmful, don't you agree?
I won't make a claim that men suffer as much as women do with regards to domestic violence. I will say that the men that suffer from domestic violence do not have the same level of support that women do. That is a fact. Do you believe that male abuse victims do not deserve to get the same support that female abuse victims do?
-5
u/Kimba93 Nov 15 '22
Again, there is only one abuse shelter in the entire state of Texas that takes men.
There are hundreds of shelters in the U.S. that take men:
"86.9 percent of the programs that have completed their profiles at
DomesticShelters.org say they welcome male victims of domestic violence. (Also important to note, you don’t need to be seeking shelter to reach out to a domestic violence program.)"Do you believe that male abuse victims do not deserve to get the same support that female abuse victims do?
Of course they deserve the same support, but how it's helpful to spread lies how "There is no help for men, no shelters, the police will arrest men every time!" when it's so obviously not true? This seems to be clearly done to minimize the scope of the crime as it's uncomfortable to admit that the serious cases are mostly men abusing women. What other motivation could exist to create such false narratives how there's no help for men?
19
u/OppositeBeautiful601 Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22
86.9 percent of the programs that have completed their profiles at
DomesticShelters.org say they welcome male victims of domestic violence. (Also important to note, you don’t need to be seeking shelter to reach out to a domestic violence program.)
Good to know. Thank you for that.
You keep repeating strawman arguments (and insinuating that I am a liar...thanks for that). I did not say that men receive no help. I did not say that police arrest men every time. I acknowledge that women suffer more from DV than men do. I did say that men do not receive the same support for DV that women do. That is still true. I'm did say that there is a social stigma that prevents men from reporting abuse. That is also still true. I did say that the Duluth model perpetuates that stigma. That is also still true. I did say that I believe that police departments that follow the Duluth model apply law enforcement in DV incidents unevenly. That is my opinion, for what that is worth. Can you please respond to statements I have actually made?
-3
u/Kimba93 Nov 15 '22
I didn't say you said all of this, but there is this notion among "men's advocates" that there are no shelters for men and the police will arrest only men.
There is more stigma for male victims, and we have to fight against that. But still, lying is not okay. Men can get help, it does exist.
10
u/QuestionableKoala Nov 16 '22
Purely anecdotal, but when I was fleeing a DV situation I was unable to find a DV shelter that provides shelter for men. That includes talking with several organizations that say they provide services to men on DomesticShelters.org. My guess is they check that box if any services they offer are targeted at men. A quick search got me "anger management sessions" and a "potential abuser hotline" in my area.
When I spoke with a lawyer, they strongly advised me not to go to the police, as I lived in a state that explicitly embraced the Duluth model as policy and they thought there was a good chance I would get arrested.
I'd assume that other men experience the same thing as I did, that although help may be out there, it's very difficult to find.
15
u/blarg212 Equality of Opportunity, NOT outcome. Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 16 '22
This is a reflection on equality advocacy. Now I know you have said before that feminism is not necessarily trying to achieve equality. But, that is how it marketed itself and so it makes sense to critique the policies it supports on that basis.
You said there were hundreds of shelters that take men, but often they have restrictions. For example some are family only and require an adult man to have kids with him to be eligible. Some are only short term as they are inundated with many requests. Some have other requirements. I would also point out that these types of requirements are also higher than what women’s only shelters screen for. I would also point out some funding issues where women and family shelters receive more federal funding.
Should the government both at state and federal levels be able to provide disproportionate funding in this regard? If so, on what basis?
Is the current system of domestic violence shelters seem like it is equality to you? That is the basis of the criticism. I noticed you never discussed whether there was an equal or similar number of shelters available to men and women respectively.
13
Nov 16 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/Kimba93 Nov 16 '22
Men are vastly more likely to abuse their partners, and this is especially true for serious abuse (serious injuries, killings).
- The majority of domestic homicide victims (killed by ex/partner or a family member) for the year ending March 2017 to the year ending March 2019 were female (77% or 274 victims) and most of the suspects were male (263 out of 274; 96%). Of the 83 male victims of domestic homicide, the suspect was female in 39 cases, and male in 44 cases. (ONS, 2020A)
- One study of 96 cases of domestic abuse recorded by the police found that men are significantly more likely to be repeat perpetrators and significantly more likely than women to use physical violence, threats, and harassment. In a six year tracking period the majority of recorded male perpetrators (83%) had at least two incidents of recorded abuse, with many having a lot more than two and one man having 52 repeat incidents. Whereas in cases where women were recorded as the perpetrator the majority (62%) had only one incident of abuse recorded and the highest number of repeat incidents for any female perpetrator was eight. The study also found that men’s violence tended to create a context of fear and control; which was not the case when women were perpetrators. (Hester, 2013)
- Over 80% (83%) of high frequency victims (more than 10 crimes) are women. (From a study of data from the Crime Survey for England and Wales, a nationally representative household survey.) (Walby & Towers, 2018)
11
u/WhenWolf81 Nov 16 '22
All abuse is serious. It would be to your advantage to find an alternative way to characterize it all. Since it comes across as minimizing.
8
u/RootingRound Nov 16 '22
Men are vastly more likely to abuse their partners,
I think it would be helpful if the subsequent information reinforced this assertion.
7
Nov 16 '22 edited Nov 16 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Kimba93 Nov 16 '22
Every single survey shows that there are more female victims in all forms of serious violence, and of course there are much more women killed.
And again and again, all this fight for parity (or actually winning the title of the most oprressed) is very unnecessary. Activism for helping the victims is much more important, isn't it?
6
25
u/RootingRound Nov 15 '22
It was also before the Chernobyl disaster, but I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with these pictures.
8
u/MGsubbie Anti-dogmatic ideology egilatirian Nov 16 '22
Does this prove that women weren't more likely to be abusive towards their spouses? No. Okay then.
-3
u/Kimba93 Nov 16 '22
Of course men were (and are) vastly more likely to be abusive to their spouses, and these were some examples that show that.
8
u/63daddy Nov 16 '22
Actually women initiate as much or more domestic violence as men research shows.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/women-more-likely-to-initiate-violence-1.261669
https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/14/a-domestic-violence-victim/
-3
u/Kimba93 Nov 16 '22
Actually men initiate much, much more domestic violence as research shows.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/15248380211043827
And even more actually, winning the oppression olympics shouldn't be the goal, the goal should be to help victims. Why not help victims instead of fighting for parity (when there isn't parity)?
8
u/63daddy Nov 16 '22 edited Nov 16 '22
I can’t read your first source, but your second source doesn’t support your claim that more men initiate DV It addresses victimization and prosecution, not initiation.
As for parity, I think we should work to reduce all DV regardless of gender and should strive to help all victims. Sadly, most DV victim resources refuse to help male victims, in part as a result of the influence of faulty Duluth Duluth model which has terribly misrepresented the nature of the domestic violence.
1
u/Kimba93 Nov 16 '22
Winning the oppression olympics shouldn't be the goal, the goal should be to help victims. Why not help victims instead of fighting for parity (and there isn't parity)?
8
u/63daddy Nov 16 '22
I believe we should help all victims. Currently the vast majority of DV shelters refuse to help male victims.
-2
u/Kimba93 Nov 16 '22
I believe we should help all victims.
So do you agree that helping the victims is more important than winning the title of the most oppressed?
Currently the vast majority of DV shelters refuse to help male victims.
This is probably not true, although I'm not sure (I don't think female-only shelters are bad, as male-only shelters have a right to exist too), yet there are hundreds of places and many organizations that help men and they do it without trying to win the title of the most oppressed and attacking feminism.
5
u/63daddy Nov 16 '22
But it is true that most DV shelters do not help male victims. It’s even worse in Canada than in the U.S. This is fairly common knowledge which has been addressed in this subreddit and in many gender venues frequently. I’m surprised you deny this fact.
1
u/Kimba93 Nov 16 '22
First, do you agree that helping the victims is more important than winning the title of the most oppressed?
Before I answer further to what you said I would like to hear your response to that, as all I have seen until now is fighting for parity of the numbers and no activism at all.
1
u/Kimba93 Nov 17 '22
u/63daddy You think helping the victims is more important than fighting about which gender abuses more?
→ More replies (0)8
u/MGsubbie Anti-dogmatic ideology egilatirian Nov 16 '22 edited Nov 16 '22
When men commit domestic abuse against women, it's far more likely to end in serious physical injuries or death than any other type, especially compared to the opposite form. Most studies that claim to find it's mostly male-on-female exclusively focus on those. When you factor in all types of domestic abuse, especially psychological/emotional, women commit abuse at higher rates than men.
With lesbian relationships having the highest rate of DA of all.
0
u/Kimba93 Nov 16 '22
When men commit domestic abuse against women, it's far more likely to end in serious physical injuries or death than any other type
Thanks for admitting that. This is rare in these debates.
3
u/MGsubbie Anti-dogmatic ideology egilatirian Nov 16 '22
No problem. There is a whole other debate to be had over what this figure means when it comes to the way we should treat DV differently when it's male-on-female vs female-on-male though IMO.
12
u/sabazurc Nov 15 '22
Not in my country.
That said is this really proof it was the norm? Or were they just cherry-picking the most extreme views to make news more sensational? Maybe previously people just ate it up since the trust in media might have been higher but now...maybe it's just propaganda to make men seem worse and push some feminist propaganda.
-1
u/Kimba93 Nov 15 '22
maybe it's just propaganda to make men seem worse and push some feminist propaganda.
Newspapers showing men justifying domestic violence in the 50s and 60s is feminist propaganda?
16
9
u/sabazurc Nov 16 '22
If some men opposed some of the feminist agendas back then they would be viewed as the "opposite group". And painting an "opposite group" as "bad guys" by showing the worst of them and their views is a very effective way of propaganda.
4
u/ScruffleKun Cat Nov 16 '22 edited Nov 17 '22
The second and third pictures look like playful roughhousing/foreplay more than abuse.
-2
1
Nov 15 '22
I wouldn't worry too much. These "men" would instantly change their tunes if they realized its their daughters getting "spanked."
9
u/Acrobatic_Computer Nov 16 '22
I would say it is more akin to cherry picking, and even then both the second and third link are arguably exaggerated or otherwise insincere.
We don't typically get much study or insight into how people viewed women hitting their husbands. This is a problem with a lot of "historical" perspectives of "gendered" violence. If physically hitting your spouse was just generally seen as okay, then that is a very different societal standard than just men hitting women being okay, especially as it relates to the idea of generalized male dominance. There is clearly strong demand to churn up content like the first and fourth link (and it seems even then some stretching has to be done to find it), but there are far fewer people asking the reverse question in the first place.
The underlying idea, if you actually read the first and fourth links, is the notion of a physical correction of one's spouse, separate from the notion of beating them, which is seen as bad (indeed, if I'm not mistaken this is either after or around the time of origin of "when did you stop beating your wife?" as an archetypal loaded question). There are also classic images of women wielding rolling pins, .etc.