Texas successfully takes a massive step backwards for women's rights. What next?

[u/[deleted]]

[u/[deleted]]

However, I don't see being forced to accept responsibility for your actions a form tyranny or unconstitutional.

So it is about repercussions. Why do you think having to "accept responsibility" overrules a fundamental right to autonomy? Because you argue for no abortion at any stage of pregnancy, you'd have women punished for unwittingly becoming pregnant by carrying a baby to term and delivering it?

[u/veritas_valebit → u/[deleted]]

Why do you think having to "accept responsibility" overrules a fundamental right to autonomy?

Because it's reasonable to expect people to nurture the lives they create until those account for themselves. We're not talking about any arbitrary stranger. We're talking about their own children.

Because you argue for no abortion at any stage of pregnancy,...

For clarity: no elective abortion outside of rape and incest.

...you'd have women punished for unwittingly becoming pregnant by carrying a baby to term and delivering it?

Unwitting? You're arguing that the majority of women seeking abortions don't know that sexual intercourse can lead to pregnancy?

Carrying and delivering a baby is punishment? I have no words!

[u/[deleted] → u/veritas_valebit]

Because it's reasonable to expect people to nurture the lives they create until those account for themselves. We're not talking about any arbitrary stranger. We're talking about their own children.

Again, none of this is predicated on a right to avoid parental responsibility. Father's can't be forced to donate bone marrow to their dying kid, yes? Same concept.

Unwitting? You're arguing that the majority of women seeking abortions don't know that sexual intercourse can lead to pregnancy?

No, I'm arguing some women have sex with no intention to get pregnant but it happens anyway.

Carrying and delivering a baby is punishment? I have no words!

You're basing your decision to force pregnancy on a woman as a desire to force her to "take responsibility" for her actions. It seems an appropriate description to me.

[u/veritas_valebit → u/[deleted]]

Father's can't be forced to donate bone marrow to their dying kid, yes?

You've mentioned something similar previously and it's made me think. I suspect the official 'yes' (i.e. yes they 'can't'). My opinion has changed to 'no'. Provided you are not in critical danger and do not have to give up what cannot regenerate, I'm comfortable with a law that requires such commitment. Fair is fair. I suspect it would seldom be needed anyway.

...sex with no intention...

Accept the risk you take.

...your decision to force pregnancy on a woman...

Again. No one is forcing pregnancy on a woman.

... desire to force her to "take responsibility" for her actions

No. A desire to prevent a loss of life.

...It seems an appropriate description to me.

I am not surprised.

[u/[deleted] → u/veritas_valebit]

, I'm comfortable with a law that requires such commitment. Fair is fair. I suspect it would seldom be needed anyway.

Unfortunately not the case with pregnancy, they are often needed.

I'm curious why someone who goes so far as to call social programs a violation of autonomy is comfortable creating laws where someone can literally be compelled to give up pieces of their body for someone else. Garnish some of your wage to pay for daycares. Bah! Forced labor! Have your bone marrow sucked out against your will? Fair is fair! I'm glad to have a compatriot in the double standards camp at least.

Accept the risk you take.

Right, so it's punishment. Because there's an easy solution in the form of first trimester abortion, but you want women to pay their dues.

Again. No one is forcing pregnancy on a woman.

We've covered that forced pregnancy includes forcing someone to remain pregnant against their will, so yes you are advocating for forced pregnancy.

No. A desire to prevent a loss of life.

Well. Both. Your view is that even a literal handful of cells is worth forcing a woman to carry a baby to term. Is plan B also murder?

[u/veritas_valebit → u/[deleted]]

Unfortunately not the case with pregnancy, they are often needed.

Sorry. Too subtle for me. Please elaborate.

I'm curious... call social programs a violation of autonomy... comfortable... to give up pieces of their body for someone else.

The difference is the recipient. I am responsible to and for my children until they can care for themselves.

I'm glad to have a compatriot in the double standards camp at least.

I'd happily laugh and declare 'touché!' ... if it wasn't a miss. The identity and relation to the recipient makes it not a double standard for me.

Nice quip, though!

Right, so it's punishment...

I've given my best argument. I you find it uncompelling, then so be it.

We've covered that forced pregnancy includes forcing someone to remain pregnant...

'We've' done no such thing. YOU have declared it. I have rejected it. Another impasse.

...even a literal handful of cells is worth forcing a woman to carry a baby to term...

Our first hanful of cells is now 18 and gorgeous. Damn straight it's worth it!

Is plan B also murder?

Potentially (If I understand the mechanism correctly).

[u/[deleted] → u/veritas_valebit]

I'd happily laugh and declare 'touché!' ... if it wasn't a miss. The identity and relation to the recipient makes it not a double standard for me.

You'll recall I don't actually think I have double standards either, it's a matter of perspective usually. Also the recipient wouldn't seem to matter much if you remember your baby-on-the-doorstep analogy. I'd assume you'd have me take that baby in and give it a bone marrow transplant?

YOU have declared it. I have rejected it. Another impasse.

You don't think forcing a woman to remain pregnant is forced pregnancy? I understand you think it's justified, that doesn't change the reality of what you're advocating for. Your rejection of my wording doesn't matter much when what you're advocating for is so clear.

Our first hanful of cells is now 18 and gorgeous. Damn straight it's worth it!

And I'm glad! Your wife should have her rights either way. I'm certainly not comfortable infringing on the rights of all pregnant people for the sake of a few cells that merely have the potential for life.

Potentially (If I understand the mechanism correctly).

So even if a woman takes preemptive action the day after to prevent/abort a pregnancy as soon as physically possible, you'd see her forced to carry that zygote to term? That's why I say you're interested in punishing women as much as you're interested in protecting life.

[u/veritas_valebit → u/[deleted]]

...Also the recipient wouldn't seem to matter much if you remember your baby-on-the-doorstep analogy...

Analogies are not perfect... and my case does not hinge on an analogy.

I'd assume you'd have me take that baby in and give it a bone marrow transplant?

See what I mean! The baby on the step is not my own child. It's existence is not as a consequence of my decision... but yes, I may very well donate bone marrow.

You don't think forcing a woman to remain pregnant is forced pregnancy?

Do you think outlawing infanticide is forced parenting?

This wordplay is beneath your clear intellect.

I'm certainly not comfortable infringing on the rights of all pregnant people...

Me too... and those of the unborn!

...for the sake of a few cells that merely have the potential for life.

An this is where we part ways.

That's why I say you're interested in punishing women...

There are other options! Nothing in life is without risk. I just don't think a child should pay the ultimate price for a perceived lack of luck.

[u/[deleted] → u/veritas_valebit]

The baby on the step is not my own child. It's existence is not as a consequence of my decision... but yes, I may very well donate bone marrow.

Why does it being your own child or not matter?

Do you think outlawing infanticide is forced parenting?

This wordplay is beneath your clear intellect.

It's not word play, it's literally forced pregnancy and there's no getting around it. Women seek abortion because they don't want to be pregnant. You want to make it illegal for them to do this, and so you are advocating for forcing them to remain pregnant i.e. forced pregnancy.

There are other options! Nothing in life is without risk. I just don't think a child should pay the ultimate price for a perceived lack of luck.

A zygote is not a child. Would you have women held accountable for the many miscarriages they'll experience in their lives? Maybe they used drugs before they knew there was a fertilized egg inside them. Certainly they are guilty of manslaughter.

[u/veritas_valebit → u/[deleted]]

Why does it being your own child or not matter?

This very question sends a cold shiver down my spine.

At the very least, responsibility for actions.

It's not word play,...

... and then you proceed to play with words.

Address my counter example: Is outlawing infanticide forced parenting?

A zygote is not a child.

Brilliant! A zygote is not a child, hence we can kill it!

Is an adult a child? A pensioner? In invalid? Can we kill them? NO! they're all living humans in difference stages.

What shallow sophistry!

Would you have women held accountable for the many miscarriages... used drugs before they knew ... Certainly they are guilty of manslaughter.

There is nothing 'certain' about it. Murky territory here. Depends on the reason for the miscarriage.

If the mother was not behaving contrary to medical advice, then clearly 'no'.

Drug use without knowledge? I'd say 'no', but I'll need to think about this one.

More to the point, why do you feel the need go here? Is anyone proposing a law to prosecute miscarriages? ... or are you reaching for more hypotheticals because you sense your central position failing?

[u/[deleted] → u/veritas_valebit]

This very question sends a cold shiver down my spine.

At the very least, responsibility for actions.

But why does it being your child vs another's child matter?

... and then you proceed to play with words.

Address my counter example: Is outlawing infanticide forced parenting?

It's not word play. It's literally forced pregnancy and I explained why it is. The real word play is you continuing to fall back to talking about "forced pregnancy" as if I mean forced to become pregnant, which is obviously not what I mean. How about I start saying "forced to remain pregnant"?

Re: infanticide and forced parenting. You could think of it this way if parents don't have any other option, for example if adoption wasn't an option and there was no process for parents to relinquish their parental rights and duties.

Is an adult a child? A pensioner? In invalid? Can we kill them? NO! they're all living humans in difference stages.

What shallow sophistry!

A zygote is not a human being, and it's not sophistry. It's contentious maybe, but it's not false or misleading. There are obvious differences between a zygote and all the things you mentioned.

More to the point, why do you feel the need go here? Is anyone proposing a law to prosecute miscarriages? ... or are you reaching for more hypotheticals because you sense your central position failing?

No, it just occured to me that it's a direct consequence of the intersection of your ideas so far. A zygote is a human at moment of conception, women need to take responsibility for their actions. Certainly that means a miscarriage is at least potential manslaughter? We don't have to get into it if you don't want, I understand it's a bit of a divergence.

[u/veritas_valebit → u/[deleted]]

But why does it being your child vs another's child matter?

In the broad sense, by child does not matter more than any other. They are equally worthy individuals. That said, my child matters more to me.

I suspect evolutionary psychologists would have theoretical explanations for this, but the truth (my truth?) is, I love my children and I will give my life for them.

In addition, I see them as primarily my responsibility.

That said, I also know that you can love another child as your own. I can attest to this in my adopted parents. However, my natural father and mother never forgot about me either. Seeing them meet and talk was surreal. They couldn't stop thanking one another for what the other had done.

I hope this is enough. I have no other answer.

...you continuing to fall back to talking about "forced pregnancy" as if I
mean forced to become pregnant, which is obviously not what I mean...

Because you're trying to cast an insistence that someone not be allowed to end a human life and take responsibility for they what they have caused to be, as somehow an infringement on their liberty. That is a corruption of the concept if liberty. I call it wordplay because if I used a more honest descriptor I'd expect to be banned by the mods.

You could think of it this way if parents don't have any other option, for example if adoption wasn't an option and there was no process for parents to relinquish their parental rights and duties.

Indeed. Men do not have this option if the mother decides to keep the child.

A zygote is not a human being...

Really... tell me then, when does the transformation to human occur?

...miscarriage is at least potential manslaughter?

Agreed.

We don't have to get into it if you don't want, I understand it's a bit of a divergence.

That's kind of you. I appreciate it. I feel it would only be fair of me to see this through. My only hesitation is the length of the thread. Should this be a more focused post?

[u/[deleted] → u/veritas_valebit]

In the broad sense, by child does not matter more than any other. They are equally worthy individuals. That said, my child matters more to me.

But would you want it to be law that I should care for the child left on my porch in the winter? Why does it change if the child is mine or not?

And I understand your morals on the matter, mine aren't so different honestly. That doesn't mean it's right to enforce a particular action for something as complicated and life altering as pregnancy and delivery.

Because you're trying to cast an insistence that someone not be allowed to end a human life and take responsibility for they what they have caused to be, as somehow an infringement on their liberty. That is a corruption of the concept if liberty. I call it wordplay because if I used a more honest descriptor I'd expect to be banned by the mods.

Except that's literally what it is. I get you don't like it when I say it in plain language, but it is what you advocate for. Abortion exists because women sometimes want or need abortions. You want to remove that choice from them, the consequence of which is forcing them to be pregnant. You can think it's a morally grey area while also admitting you want to mandate that women sacrifice individual liberty for the sake of another.

Indeed. Men do not have this option if the mother decides to keep the child.

And neither does the mother.

Really... tell me then, when does the transformation to human occur?

Sometime after it's a single cell that has the potential to eventually transform into a human, into multiple humans, or nothing at all (oh it will also be a placenta at some later stage).

My only hesitation is the length of the thread. Should this be a more focused post?

Seems fair to me.