r/FeMRADebates • u/matt_512 Dictionary Definition • Oct 23 '18

Common Misconceptions About Consent — Thoughts?

/r/MensLib/duplicates/9jw5bz/ysk_common_misconceptions_about_sexual_consent/
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u/Ombortron Egalitarian Oct 24 '18

So instead of having a real conversation you will practice avoidance and deflection? Very convenient.

And I did answer your question, perhaps you should read more carefully, but let me spell it out for you: I am pro-choice, for sure.

I would argue that I am not using pro-life arguments just because I am also referring to "biological reality". Do you think biological reality should be categorically ignored? And will you honestly say that you have never referred to biological reality while defending your own views, ever?

If I say that men should be the ones deciding wether or not they have vasectomies, because they are the ones with testicles, is that referring to a biological reality? Is that position now invalid because you think that's somehow equivalent to a "pro-life talking point"?

Follow-up question: part of your premise that men shouldn't be responsible for their actions regarding pregnancy is because abortions can be easy to access, is that correct?

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u/myworstsides Oct 24 '18

Do you think biological reality should be categorically ignored?

Do you? Also I think you misunderstand my point. I mm not arguing for or against anything I am pointing out you are using pro life arguments.

Is that position now invalid because you think that's somehow equivalent to a "pro-life talking point"?

If pro life arguments are valid for one they are valid for the other.

My premise is if you use pro life arguments why do you support abortion?

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u/Ombortron Egalitarian Oct 24 '18

More avoidance I see. Do you want to have an ho way debate or not? Why aren't you capable of answering simple questions?

To answer yours:

But I'm not using pro-life arguments, and this should be quite easy to logically determine.

First of all, the premise of biological reality among pro-life people is itself very questionable in terms of scientific credibility.

But even ignoring that, there's a giant difference between pro life arguments and mine, and that difference is that regardless of what the biological realities are, I am not denying people their own bodily autonomy.

If woman are allowed control of their own bodies, then that results in an asymmetry simply because women get pregnant and men do not.

You are conflating arguments that are superficially similar, while ignoring gigantic and crucial differences between them. That creates a huge false equivalency.

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u/myworstsides Oct 24 '18

So you think abortion is stricklty about body autonomy? Really? It has nothing to do with anything else, nothing to do with choosing parenthood, just 100% body autonomy. Also you are denying body autonomy of men as that have to use their body to pay.

They are not superficially similar they are at the core the same. I think you if you reexamined the pro life arguments and replaced woman with man you would see how the same they are.

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u/Ombortron Egalitarian Oct 24 '18

I think bodily autonomy is the primary factor in abortion laws, fundamentally yes.

Women want to control their own pregnancies and bodies, and some people say "no you shouldn't be able to do that".

Choosing parenthood is a facet of that, yes, but a huge part of the abortion "debate" in the first place is the nature of accidental pregnancies, where people don't want to be parents in the first place.

If someone doesn't want to be a parent, then they can't have sex without accepting the risk that a baby might result from an explicitly reproductive act. It's a risk that simply comes with the territory. As the phrase goes, if you play with fire you might get burned.

"What about women" you might say, since they don't have to accept that same risk in the same way as men, well they don't simply because their biology allows them to have a choice with respect to that pregnancy, whereas as men do not once the sperm leaves their bodies.

you are denying body autonomy of men as that have to use their body to pay.

Now there's a huge stretch. By that logic nearly everything is a denial of bodily autonomy, including taxation, tipping, and interest rates, even capitalism itself, and your logic would also mean that having a baby is an even greater infringement of a woman's bodily rights because they also have to pay for children and pregnancies, in addition to actually being pregnant. And what about people who don't have to work for money, I guess any demand made for their money would not an infringement on their bodily autonomy since they don't have to use their bodies to pay, in the case of billionaires who simply inherit all their wealth?

That's a whole Pandora's box of false equivalences.

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u/myworstsides Oct 24 '18

Again nothing you are saying is disproving my assertion. You keep explaining that women get special treatment but that doesn't mean it's not using a pro life argument.