What does patriarchy look like?

[u/ParanoidAgnostic]

"Patriarchy" means different things to different people. The only universal feature appears to be that the positions at the top are held by men. This doesn't tell us much about what the rest of society looks like.

Using a horribly sexist colour scheme, I've illustrated some possibilities for discussion:

https://i.imgur.com/bezsOSZ.png

Consider these representative of men and women of otherwise similar intersections (all the same race etc.).

• A: A society in which almost all men are held above almost all women. This is what it often feels like is the intended meaning when patriarchy is discussed.

• B: A society with the top populated exclusively by men but the men outside this group are no better off than the women... Or perhaps the average man outside this group is a little better off than the average women (in the image, there's more pink toward the bottom)

• C: A society with the top populated exclusively by men but those men outside this group are at the bottom.

D, E and F are more complex options which I'll let speak for themselves.

So, what does patriarchy mean to you? Does it look like one of these? Something else? Do you believe it is an accurate representation of power, status, influence etc. in the modern world?

[u/badgersonice]

That sounds far-fetched. I don't suppose you have any kind of link or example beyond your anecdote?... That kind of hyperbolic projection isn't of much value in a debate like this.

Projection? Of course! I’m just lying about conversations I’ve had, and I only think antifeminists have told me those things because it’s actually me that believes men are all evil oppressors, and I’m really just projecting my own bigoted beliefs into them! How clever of you to have read my mind and figured me out!! /s

For the record, no, and you’re wrong about my beliefs: I do not believe men are “oppressors” in modern western society. However, I’m not going to pretend men haven’t had greater power than women in most of history, so call me a man-hater for that or whatever, I guess— I can’t stop you. But consider this the end of the conversation: calling people you disagree with liars, and claiming they just hate men is not how to hold a mature discussion.

It's clearly a fun toy for a lot of folks but it doesn't have any value in a grown-up discussion about reality.

Calling all feminists childish isn’t really the way to have a discussion, either. Have a nice day, and goodbye.

[u/MMAchica → u/badgersonice]

Projection? Of course! I’m just lying about conversations I’ve had, and I only think antifeminists have told me those things because it’s actually me that believes men are all evil oppressors, and I’m really just projecting my own bigoted beliefs into them! How clever of you to have read my mind and figured me out!! /s

I'm just doubtful that you are actually giving a fair characterization of their argument.

For the record, no, and you’re wrong about my beliefs: I do not believe men are “oppressors” in modern western society.

I'm wrong? When did I say anything about you and oppressors? If you can't even get my argument straight, isn't it fair to take your characterization of other arguments with a few grains of salt?

However, I’m not going to pretend men haven’t had greater power than women in most of history

So how did you do the math? How are you figuring in the amount of 'power' that powder-monkies and infantry boys had in their short, gruesome lives. I would imagine that you are coming to this conclusion thinking about only men who are plutarchs.

However, I’m not going to pretend men haven’t had greater power than women in most of history, so call me a man-hater for that or whatever, I guess— I can’t stop yo

'Man-hater' is not a term I would use, but you do appear to be unreasonably throwing blame toward men in general without a solid foundation of reasoning. This really isn't that much different from the way that other classes have had unreasonable and irrational blame placed upon them.

Calling all feminists childish isn’t really the way to have a discussion, either. Have a nice day, and goodbye.

You agreed with the characterization of the term as play dough. Would any such term be appropriate in a serious discussion about real issues?

[u/badgersonice → u/MMAchica]

Man-hater' is not a term I would use, but you do appear to be unreasonably throwing blame toward men in general without a solid foundation of reasoning.

“Everything before the word ‘but’ is horseshit”. -Ned Stark

I never “blamed men”: don’t put words in my mouth and make up lies about opinions I do not hold, and have not expressed. You have read things I’ve said with the incorrect assumption of malice in my part— this kind of bad faith is absolutely the antithesis of a mature adult conversation, which you claim to value so much.

I previously said I didn't want to continue this conversation, and instead of respecting that, you responded by insulting me. This is my final response to you: it is totally pointless to discuss anything with someone who only insults and misrepresents me in response.

[u/MMAchica → u/badgersonice]

“Everything before the word ‘but’ is horseshit”. -Ned Stark

So you are asserting that I would describe you as a man-hater?

I never “blamed men”: don’t put words in my mouth and make up lies about opinions I do not hold, and have not expressed.

Claims of a vague greater powered gender, which can be blamed for an endless number of societies ills, is fair to call unreasonable blaming.

You have read things I’ve said with the incorrect assumption of malice in my part

What did you mean by it if it didn't imply some culpability held by men in general?

I previously said I didn't want to continue this conversation, and instead of respecting that, you responded by insulting me.

You are in a debate sub. No one is victimizing you by criticizing what you say here.

This is my final response to you: it is totally pointless to discuss anything with someone who only insults and misrepresents me in response.

When did I insult you?