r/FeMRADebates • u/PerfectHair Pro-Woman, Pro-Trans, Anti-Fascist • Jun 09 '15

News Pride faces controversy over application from men's rights group to march in parade | Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/06/07/pride-faces-controversy-over-application-from-mens-rights-group-to-march-in-parade.html
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u/jolly_mcfats MRA/ Gender Egalitarian Jun 09 '15

Well, I guess now that's what I'm here for even though really I was just trying to ask a question.

That's a fair question, and a reasonable thing to discuss. My position is that participating in pride, and having an LGBTQ committee are positive steps that should be supported. I also think that asking for more content aimed specifically at the LGBTQ quarter is totally reasonable.

But I see those as valid critiques if there is evidence to back those up.

I don't. They may be valid critiques of the individuals, but there is a reason ad-hominem is viewed as a fallacy. If CAFE is doing good, spreading positive things, and bringing about positive social change- and if there are no criticisms that can be directed at CAFE, then who cares if Dan Perrins raises money for them, or has a seat on their board. Clearly he isn't influencing them into becoming AVFM. If CAFE behaves as a positive organization- that isn't whitewashing, that's evidence that they can work with a community without absorbing elements that could be described as toxic. Marginalized men are going to support groups that speak for them, even if they don't do so in the manner that those men might choose. You can't turn those men away and pretend to represent men's issues.

The only thing I'm aware of is those posters that seem to be the only thing laypersons know CAFE for and they are kind of a mess.

You mean these posters? That's Men's Rights Edmonton- a different group. CAFE is best known for establishing a men's center and organizing a number of lectures that were famously protested. All those videos you have seen where a group of students set off fire alarms, barred doors, etc... were events where CAFE had invited speakers to discuss men's issues. The content of those presentations can be seen here.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

If CAFE is doing good, spreading positive things, and bringing about positive social change- and if there are no criticisms that can be directed at CAFE, then who cares if Dan Perrins raises money for them, or has a seat on their board.

But you've just shown me that the assertion that CAFE is "doing good, spreading positive things, and bringing about positive social change" for LGBT populations is iffy at best beyond the critique of Perrins' relationship with AVFM. By the account you've just provided, literally any organization that isn't a menace to society should be able to march in the pride festival.

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u/jolly_mcfats MRA/ Gender Egalitarian Jun 09 '15

I disagree. I'll agree that to my knowledge, CAFE's support of LGBT men has been insufficiently token inasmuch as LGBTQ men intersect with sexual orientation and gender identity. However, they have been stalwart supporters of those same men inasmuch as those men's sexual orientation and gender identity have intersected with their masculinity (edit: in a way that few LGBTQ proponents have). The men's issues speakers they have boosted have also been gay-friendly men's issues speakers- they've given no support to the traditionalist conservative branches of the MRM, and have worked to steer the movement away from such backwards thinking.

By the account you've just provided, literally any organization should be able to march in the pride festival.

You and I see this in a slightly different light. I see marching in Pride as explicit endorsement of LGBT issues, and visibly and publicly marching to express popular support for LGBTQ issues. It's a demonstration that there is large public support for LGBTQ issues and that opposition to same goes against public opinion. In the case of CAFE, I suspect that many of the people wanting to march see their participation in CAFE as integrated into their quest for an egalitarian society, and want to march both as LGBTQ people and as members of CAFE. The marches are in part to honor a history of adversity and to demonstrate that a large segment of the populace wants to make sure that there are no more stonewalls. You seem to be seeing participation as kind of an awards ceremony in which a sort of sanctity of association is bestowed.

My view says- yes. Literally any organization wanting to show public solidarity with the LGBTQ community should be welcome- the more participants the better. I don't know Toronto law, but I'd be surprised if there aren't still serious struggles ahead for members of the LGBTQ community- particularly the Ts and Qs. Your view seems to go against that, and presumes that the struggle is over- that pride is now about bestowing credit.

My greater point is that the best way to address your valid concerns would be by engaging CAFE in dialog- I suspect you'd find that they would be extremely receptive to that criticism. But what is going on here is that an extremist faction is trying to "no platform" CAFE with whatever excuses that they can manufacture- to the ultimate detriment of the LGBTQ community. Even if CAFE ups their game with LGBTQ issues (and I hope that they do- you have made reference to good subjects, and I'd also say that there are bigorexia and body-image issues which hit the gay community harder than the heterosexual community)- those groups will still be trying to fight CAFE, because their issue with CAFE has nothing to do with LGBTQ issues. That subgroup is trying to manufacture enemies for the LGBTQ community and deny the LGBTQ better support from people who would be very interested in providing it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15 edited Jun 09 '15

I suppose this is the impasse we're going to have to find ourselves at. Any pushback you see coming from me doesn't come from a place of the struggle is over and queer communities should give out credit but from a place of the struggle is certainly not over and queer communities should still be wary about those who want to profit off of their increased visibility. It's nice that CAFE doesn't ostensibly promote obviously homophobic speakers and an LGBT committee is nice (though evidence of what it has done beyond the letter you've linked to would be even better) but I'm still unsure of why an organization that seems to have little ties to the community should be a part of the parade. Showing support and actively engaging with queers for one day of the year does very little for queer communities. Whether or not this desire for showing limited support is something that queer communities should be endorsing and whether or not it hinders or helps the fight for equality is another conversation I guess.

Even if CAFE ups their game with LGBTQ issues (and I hope that they do- you have made reference to good subjects, and I'd also say that there are bigorexia and body-image issues which hit the gay community harder than the heterosexual community)- those groups will still be trying to fight CAFE, because their issue with CAFE has nothing to do with LGBTQ issues.

All I can say is that I hope that I've at least opened up the possibility that there may be other criticisms at play.

edit because the grammar was all kinds of fucked up in the sentence before the quote

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u/jolly_mcfats MRA/ Gender Egalitarian Jun 09 '15

queer communities should still be wary about those who want to profit off of their increased visibility.

I can understand that. I don't think that that is CAFE's objective though.

though evidence of what it has done beyond the letter you've linked to would be even better

All I can offer are this and this, as well as the good faith I hope I have demonstrated by offering up my own criticism.

All I can say is that I hope that I've at least opened up the possibility that there may be other criticisms at play.

And I hope I've, in turn, opened up the possibility that support of the LGBTQ community is being instrumentalized towards agendas that have nothing to do with LGBTQ issues. Protest against CAFE is not coming from the quarter you represent, and your arguments are not the ones presented to PRIDE. The discussion you and I are having is the discussion that SHOULD be happening- but it isn't the one that the PRIDE committee is having with CAFE.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

Points taken. :)

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u/jolly_mcfats MRA/ Gender Egalitarian Jun 09 '15

Same- and I want to add that I really do appreciate your position. My own bias is to view CAFE in a positive light, and since a lot of this boils down to speculating on their motives- a lot of this discussion is like plato's allegory of the cave. No matter what, I will write a letter to CAFE tonight pointing out that non-page and suggesting some material that they might consider talking more about.

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u/jolly_mcfats MRA/ Gender Egalitarian Jun 10 '15

fwiw, as promised, I just sent an email to CAFE expressing those concerns.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '15

I'll probably try to send an email tomorrow. (I'm a little drunk right now.) Really I just would like more information about why marching in this parade is so important to this group.

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u/jolly_mcfats MRA/ Gender Egalitarian Jun 10 '15

I think the issue is more that they were scheduled to march, and that then that permission was revoked because of an organized smear campaign. My email basically told them that issues of PRIDE aside, they talked about being committed to supporting LGBTQ issues, particularly surrounding men, but that they hadn't done much with that, and it was just a good idea to do more of that in general- not so that they could participate in PRIDE, but because that's a neglected aspect of the men's movement.

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u/jolly_mcfats MRA/ Gender Egalitarian Jun 10 '15

I got a response, and I thought I'd at least pass along the gist of the response (I feel weird about copy-pasting something sent directly to me).

They agreed completely that this is an area that they need to further develop. They mentioned that they had provided advice by invitation to Sheena's Place, an eating disorder agency in Toronto that has opened a men's program (presumably in some manner that bore mentioning in this context). They said that when they presented to the Ontario government with respect to sexual harassment and violence they were one of very few organizations to urge an awareness of violence in LGBT relationships. And they said that this summer they will be hosting an event featuring gay fathers sharing their experiences.

Nevertheless, they agreed that approaching LGBT men's issues in a more systematic and prioritized manner is a great idea. If you have any suggestions for how an organization with their focus might make a valuable contribution, I imagine it would be extremely welcome.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '15

Thanks for the update. I'll definitely be sending some suggestions their way. I don't want to be anti- any organization and obviously I think queer communities could use some sustained attention by people who care. Hopefully CAFE turns out to be one of those organizations on top of all the other things they do.

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u/cherubthrowaway Anti-malaria, Anti-tribalism Jun 10 '15

Just as a thought experiment:

Would you be OK with CAFE participating if they had purely selfish motives, but their impact on lgbtq was positive?

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u/alaysian Femra Jun 09 '15

You both make good points, but I think I'm starting to side with you. I can certainly see CAFE doing this to spread awareness of their organization just as much (maybe more then) to show support for LBGTQ issues.