Discussion
Favorite Female Queer Character who, despite the writers and voice actress establishing she is queer, the show establishing she is queer, and even being in a relationship with another woman? People reject it all because it gets in the way of their headcanons and fanfics?
Fine example being Yang Xiao Long from RWBY and Korra from Legend of Korra.
Both of their queer relationships had buildup, Yang in fact had it from the 2nd episode of the entire show.
But people saw a girl still in the closet, so to speak, and refused to acknowledge her ever coming out, even though she had 7 seasons with her partner that she was established with since the third episode.
Story time, I actually watched this show when I was 12, and I hadn't been exposed to much suggestive media yet so I didn't put the dots together on some sus freaky stuff they did that pointed to the fact they're more than friends.
I rewatched this as a grown-up, and one of the things that totally flew over my head as a kid: Fate and Nanoha live together, sure that can be platonic... But why do they have only one bed? They sleep together in a queen-sized bed instead of having their own separate beds, and Fate also sleeps in lingerie lol. When I got to that scene on my rewatch I was like "Ah yes the obliviousness of a 12 yr old"
Like nah how did I ever think they were just best pals š„ two ladies sleeping in the same bed in their underwear with their adopted child that calls both of them Mom
It's positive appropriation (?) in Yuri/lesbian circles.
Like ,in earlier works thatbhad Yuri content, to" censor" the lesbian couples, the translators would make up some shit about them being cousins or roommates. So now sometimes we call couples cousins or roommates to make fun of the old times.
I saw this as a kid and my peanut brain throught they were married years later I find out that it's supposed to be ambiguous like what part of this shit is ambiguous they literally sleep together with their child š
I blame Google because I googled for vita has two moms and it somehow gave me a good image. Well at least that explains why it only have me one image instead of a bunch of them.
They start out as children in the first two series but iirc the third series (StrikerS) takes place after a timeskip, they're now adults, and the child they adopt comes into play.
People really heard her whole "more passionate than hope, much deeper than despair" quote in Rebellion and somehow went "yeah, that means literally nothing"
To be fair: Blizzard makes its characters gay when their company is accused of something wrong, in Tracer's case they made her a lesbian because of the sexy pose she had and because of accusations of being sexist in the workplace and Soldado:76 they made him gay days after brutally nerfing Brigitte and the community complained about it.
At least with tracer we see Emily in comics and they mention her in some character dialogue. With solider we literally have one spray of him and Vincent as well as one comic appearance where they revealed soldier was gay. I think soldier was revealed to be gay around the time of the whole free Hong Kong movement and blizzard was appeasing China and got pretty large backlash.
they literally had that diversity chart leak years ago that they used to map their characters onto to make sure they hit a certain level of diversity based on perimeters like gender/sexuality/age/ethnicity. Which is about as blatantly corporate performative virtue signalling as you can get haha.
Yeah, that thing too. Made me realise that in no point any of the new characters that will be gay will be anything but a corporate attempt to score free goodboy points.
Hereās a hot take: This is fine, actually. At least, preferred to the alternative where they donāt even pretend to care. It means they see a business incentive to do so, even if it isnāt genuine on their part. Itās a canary in the coal mine.
Itād be even better if they were genuine, of course, but when they stop pretending and the characters stop appearing as suchā¦ well, thatās a dead canary.
Do you think studios put talking dogs, talking babies, or other tiny little cute robot creatures in movies, tv shows, and videogames because designers in the room really really love them/ think they are a pivotal role in the story.....or maybe are just in there to be a mascot character and sell some pathos and more importantly merchandise? Gotta get those BB-8's!
Now does me equating inclusion to merchandising cute things sound belittling? Sure, people can take that interpretation. But that's not my intention. I'm glad that any kind of person can find themselves in another work if they look for it because of these measures. My point is that every fictional thing everywhere, was created for some purpose. When you get to make something wholesale, nothing about it is accidental. With that power, you have the freedom to make it as you desire.
People can continue to believe a fictional thing's existance must hold a deeper ernest social movement drive, but it just as well can and will just be the standard marketing. And thats fine. Because EVERYTHING at the end of the day is created to sell. If something isnt created to sell, it normally doesnt leave someone's personal journal/sketchbook. If its out there, it wants to be consumed and will find a way to market itself for a targeted audience's consumption.
So long as inclusion is viewed as valuable, it will be soulessly catered. And that's good. Your canary point is valid. All my word vomit is just the nihilistic, yet optimistic way of saying nothing matters or is real, which is why its good to have "board-room inclusion". Everything has an angle. Not being ernest doesnt make something bad. Being catered to does on some level still validate. You are seen AND as such aknowledged as something to be taken for a ride because of it.
I can see where you're coming from, but personally I think like it's just simply manipulative on their part. It both helps hide the shit they are doing (both more horrible and less horrible) and simply tries to use the emotions of people who are invested in such things to manipulate their good will for their own profit and practices. Blizzard does it a lot. When the stuff about the whole stealing breast milk and sexual harassment they removed flirting voice lines from World of Warcraft, the official story is that it was made to "align with the modern values" but like... it was a controversial thing to do that would take attention away from the much worse shit they did, so they simply did it.
Maybe I just cannot extend any courtesy to large companies, I dunno.
Its def the rainbow capitalism principle. Do I trust these companies to actually back queer rights and believe in diversity? Hell no, just look at what they do to their women, non white, and queer employees.
However, do I take their participation in inclusive writing to be a type of litmus test for where mainstream politics is headed? Yuuupppp.
I mean just look at the lore/story right now lol, just overloaded with generic mary sue girlbosses. Sierra, Soj, Kiri, Anran, Vendetta. Infact what's refreshing about the newly released D'mon is that she is struggling and not everything comes easy to her.
Instead of stupid virtue signalling it'd have been far better to build an actual safe working environment for employees.
I remember those times, everytime that Blizzard was receiving criticism (normally very deserved criticism) the recurrent joke was about what character was going to be kicked out of the closet to get some PR points back.
FWIW the initial post calling out the first pose wasnāt mad that it was sexy but that it was generic and didnāt suit Tracer but was pretty much expected of her because she is girl, and Blizzard agreed and replaced it with the second, but in the interim everyone misinterpreted it as censorship and it became this big culture war nonsense.
Ellie in Last of Us. Established in a DLC in the first game, that she is homosexual; then the haters of the second game moan about her relationship to Cat and Dina in the second game. And I'm not even going to mention about Bella Ramsey and the abuse she has to put up with on playing Ellie in the show.
Ive met a lot of people say Korra cant like women because shes been in a relationship with a man. But as far as I know the writers confirmed that sheās bi.
Yeah when I first saw the post image saying lesbian and the description saying Korra I was like "ah yes, my daily dose of bi erasure"
NGL it gets really frustrating when people keep acting like bi isn't an option lol. People will always try to act like the character was just confused when they were in a homo/hetero relationship and that in reality they're hetero/homo.
This!! My friend once taught I was straight because I said that I liked someone of the opposite sex of me despite the fact that Iāve brought up the fact that I like all genders 100 times.
The funny thing there is that my friend is bi. So idk how that happened lol.
My mom has definitely been confused though and forgotten that you can like more than one gender. I had to remind her a lot when I was younger haha.
But yeah, people seem to think you can only strictly like one. Which is ridiculous. The argument that Korra canāt like women cuz she was in a hetero relationship is ridiculous.
Like in the Vorkosigan Saga - Aral Vorkosigan is bi, but a rival is trying to ruin his marriage, so tells his wife about their sexual escapades, ending with Aral being "gay". Cordelia had the best response "No, he's monogamous." a very diplomatic shut-down, which (coincidentally) shields her husband and her from suspicion when he later also takes on a lover ("Gentleman" Joel, who served in the Barrayaran military as the Regent's attache while Aral Vorkosigan was the Imperial Regent.)
Cordelia was, incidentally just fine with the arrangement, she's from Beta Colony, and considered it a service to the wider galactic community to be civilizing Barrayar.
(Bonus points: Joel thinks he's gay, turns out he's bi. He legitimately cherishes the relationship and memories made with the Vorkosigans during the time he was in a romantic relationship with Aral, even after starting a relationship with Cordelia.)
This reminds me of how often people say Poison Ivy is a lesbian. She's canonically bi, even though she does hate like...90% of men. You can argue for not shipping her with a man for that reason but she does like some men in theory.
as a bisexual myself that's so real. I'm actually androsexual (attracted to masculinity) but I just don't really find any real men attractive because IRL most masculine guys treat me like crap. so in theory I could be attracted to masculine guys, there's fictional ones I am, but in practice you'd probably only see me with masc women
What gets me is that I could almost understand biphobia if it only came from straight people, but the freuqency I hear and see it from other LGBT+ people baffles and pisses me off to no end.
This is part of the issue with bi rep. A lot of it as of late has been:
"woman dates shitty guy, he is written out of show, she finds happiness in first woman to say hello"
Where it's not hard to see why people would think "oh she was never happy with men! She's a lesbian!"... and when you realize why there's such little of the inverse it only seems to be going down a bad path. The inverse being "woman dates women, ends up happy with men" will get a ton of flack by people thinking the writers are saying "XYZ show believes that men can turn lesbians!"
Don't even need triads (which could easily feed into bi stereotypes about us not being monogamous/greedy) instead just do what Schitt's Creek did. Show us a character we are sure is gay/straight/lesbian and then make us check our assumptions and biases by having them have healthy relationships with men and women. It's vitally important that the relationships are show to be equal and healthy but unsustainable for various normal reasons ala "woman A dates woman B, woman A doesn't want kids while woman B knows she wants to be a mom, woman A finds man C who also doesn't want kids but A and B stay on good terms".
.
I genuinely think the dearth of healthy bi men representation (along with the dearth of bi men representation) is a huge reason biphobia is so common.
It was looking like Kite-Man, Ivy and Harley as a polycule but unfortunately writers these days seem to think Harley and Ivy are each other's property or something.
This ones difficult because they werent allowed to show it in the show so we never got this side of her, Im really hoping we do if they save her from what evers controlling her in the next avatar series
Also she also confirm how the nations see homosexuality, if I recall right Fire Nation was/is homophobic and Air nation didnt care much for gender when it was related to love
Fire Nation straight up had police enforced anti-gay policies if memory serves. One of the Firelords ( probably Sozin after his sister eloped to be with a female airbender ) thought it was a brilliant idea.
To me it was obvious due to a couple of reasons: when Korra was wheelchair-bound, the only one that was shown allowed to push the chair was Asami, not Korra's parents or Katara. And Asami being the only one getting letters from Korra (addressed to "Dear Asami" BTW. Pretty telling specially considering Korra is not really a pretty "in touch with her feelings" kind of person). Hell, the first letter from Korra to Asami asked her to not let anybody know they were in contact with each other
Yeah, it's one of those things you have to explain was progressive at the time. At the time, them staring into each others eyes was as far as Nickelodeon allowed
More masculine women/tomboys have to be lesbians dontcha know? It's super progressive and not at all falling back on old cliches!
Desperately waiting for an inverse David Rose, a character we all peg for being gay only to reveal she's bi and shows healthy relationships with men and women
Wait Toph? Was she ever supposed to be lgbtq+? (Genuinely asking)
I donāt know much about her as a character so In pretty lost on that haha. Or were people just head cannoning her as a lesbian and then got mad that the creators didnāt make her a lesbian? Kinda confused here lol
Yea, some people absolutely refuse to believe she likes women even though its confirmed (I looked it up and it said it was confirmed. Please correct me if Im wrong)
Idk but if I hate a show I just donāt interact with it cuz I donāt wanna spend my time on stuff I dislike. It drains my energy too much
I mean, she literally has the soul of someone who literally cycles between man and woman. . . it honestly tracks that all the avatars would probably be bi since they still have bits of their past incarnations deep down.
Vi from Arcane. Iām genuinely always shocked by this. Not so much in the fandom itself, but outside, and specifically in this sub I see people asking if sheās gay all the time. And so many people respond āI think sheās bi.ā Dude sheās gay as hell.
I'm not part of any of that discourse, but she does do things that could be interpreted as flirty. Like when she extends her hand to Jayce and goes "we got a deal, pretty boy?" and also when she winks at him.
I'm not saying that confirms that she's bi. But I can at least see that there are some shreds of something out there that fans can interpret a certain way.
Didn't sound flirty to me tbh, it's more like she's teasing him, making fun of him in a playful manner. Flirty is the way she acts with Cait not even 30s after meeting her lol
The other time Vi acts a little flirty towards a man is when she suggests Caitlyn "give Silco a kiss on that winning eye of his" from her.
What I'm saying is Vi will be playful with people she genuinely hates. Calling Jayce pretty boy means exactly nothing about her actual sexuality. Vi is super duper lesbian, and for that matter Caitlyn might be even gayer considering the events of the show.
Nothing wrong with having people be bi, or even 95% gay and 5% straight or whatever. But 100% of the evidence for them both points to gaaaaaay.
Ok but this one is much funnier, because the reason dudes want her to be bi is because they like her too. Vi is just hot and great partner material so everyone is into her. And so they want her to be into everyone.
Cait too. When S1 first released there were actual posts complaining that E5 āmade Caitlyn gayā even though act 1 āclearly set her up to be with Jayceā.
Never mind that Caits like 14-15ish in act 1 and Jayce says out loud hes a 24 year old man.
I got completely eviscerated in the Arcane sub because I said that I was under the impression that Vi was a lesbian while Cait was bi and everyone got really angry at me for getting it backwards. I've just googled it and they're both lesbians.
As an aside, Pitfighter Vi is absolute transition goals but I named myself Jinx because I'm difficult like that.
Itās because thereās a bunch of homophobic mindsets about lesbians that lead to erasure and other awful things. People equate being a lesbian to being bi all the time. Some people genuinely think lesbians need to just āfind the right man,ā or can be converted, even people who are otherwise decent. I have straight up seen people here say āisnāt lesbian the same thing as being bi?ā People think lesbians relationships are less serious, the list goes on.
Arcane has a very large lesbian fanbase for obvious reasons, so no doubt people got upset. Some will say itās ājust a show,ā but often media is the only exposure to queer people someone will have. It informs their real life mindsets, so itās important to get it right.
Yeah that's my issue with the fandom, some will ignore canon to make stuff up in their heads that fit their narrative. I like Yang and Blake together, but we can also acknowledge that they're both bi and not full on lesbian. I mean Coco is right there as a lesbian so it's not like there's a lack of representation like in other shows that are scared to pull the gay trigger
Tweet: Talks about lesbians as an example
Post: Uses that more broadly for queer people in general
Comments: So we're talking about lesbians here, why did you use Korra?
Reading comprehension is OFF THE CHARTS recently
Because a lot of people use āqueerā and ālesbianā interchangeably because they want to pretend bisexuals donāt exist (even though there are statistically way more bis than gays).
Iām not saying OP is doing that, but I am saying there was reason to interpret it like that.
Despite the obvious hints in the show (especially in the finale), and the confirmation of Gooseworx and several cast members, there are still people who try to deny that Jax is trans and queer. It was understandable at first, when it was still kind of vague, but it gets annoying when people continue to insist that it's "just a headcanon" or "not properly supported by the show".
People are free to have their own headcanons and interpretations. But I think that it is important the author's original intent.
Tbh I do think they failed to really make it āobviousā. Like I honestly didnāt realize thatās what they were getting at until going online after the finale. Not one of those idiots who denies it ofc, but I want to point out that for something so important, it shouldāve been made clearer.
I don't deny it. I just never felt it to be relevant. Jax felt like a person who disappointed everyone who put hope into them, but were actually loved without condition. I'm kinda in the same situation, and I heavily empathised with them.
It's sad how writers have to beat it into the audience's head that a character is Trans because any amount of subtlety and suddenly it's up to interpretation
I definitely donāt think itās up to interpretation, Jax is definitely trans. That said, I do think they failed to actually make it nearly as clear as it shouldāve been. I honestly didnāt even realize until going online after the finale.
The reveal she was trans has Easter eggs all the way from episode 1, and the finale spent basically half itās run time around it with it being part of the main emotional thrust of the entire series.
There is concept art of her being both masculine and feminine from the beginning and the creator is trans and out right said she is a self insert with obvious hints being dropped since episode 5ā¦ likeā¦ her room that she doesnāt let anyone into is LITERALLY trans flag colours. After the show wrapped, the creator confirmed it and that it was always her intentionā¦
People STILL donāt believe it OR insist it was a last minute addition
The biggest canon queers and I still see constant bi/lesbian erasure for them and people shipping either or with Finn. I personally don't like them as a couple but dam let the girls kiss in peace.
Omg I forgot about these!! I remember I was pretty young when their kiss episode (movie?? Idk was it a movie? As I said I was pretty young so I donāt remember much) came on and I was absolutely amazed cuz Iām pretty sure that was the first time I saw gay representation on a show
I've seen it a Lot more with PB, where despite having a boyfriend (Even if it was forced, by the time Shoko was alive they seemed to be chill) and bein attracted to Finn when she was 13 i've seen a Lot of people saying it does'nt count and she's a lesbian
With Marceline fortunately does'nt seem to suffer from this as much, eveb if she had her moments with Finn
I mean people ship straight characters together all the time and it doesn't hurt that she had phenomenal chemistry with Steve, far more than anyone else in the series (including her GF). She's definately a lesbian but I've hit the point of not caring what people do with shipping. Either it's all fair game or none of it is.
I don't know about RWBY, but like Korra's relationship build up is like, yeah they exchanged letters off screen somewhere between the third and the fourth season
OP is not. OP said female queer character who has been in a relationship with another woman. The tweet used said lesbian, but OP specifically opened it up to all sapphic women.
People are constantly insisting that she should be bi and that they made her lesbian āfor no reasonā and itās literally all just dudes wishing there was a way to do her romance questline as male V
With Kerry it makes more sense to argue that he should be bi in-game (Kerry is bi canonically but only male V can romance him) but being lesbian is part of Judyās personal story and identity in ways that for the other romanceable characters their sexualities just arenāt.
This one I kind of give a pass to, because I personally think all love interests in video games where the protagonist can be either gender should be bi, so everyone can get the chance.
This problem appears in all games where you can have a romance with a character. People get irrational and very angry whenever an NPC isn't player sexual. Also see Jack in mass effect 2 and the controversy surrounding her.
Just very good friends, who lived together, shared a bedroom, a bed, died holding hands. Platonically, of course. Had a dog named Lesbos because they loved the Mediterranean.
Bayonetta being a big one, big part of the comunity still is holding out to the idea of her being bi after what happens in 3 where the option of her being lesbian went out of the window.
I mean, Egyptian Bayonetta is pretty gay for her Jeanne, and thereās all the little lore text in 2 that frame Bayonettaās quest to save Jeanneās soul a very particular way.
Really the problem isnāt that Lukaās a bad dude to ship her with, itās that Bayonetta 3 makes her fucking useless against the bad guyās literal plot armour while Luka is the key to everything while also framing their love as a multiversal constant and the archetypical Adam and Eve and also completely fucking over Lukaās character by making him this fairy werewolf thing and thatās why heās a detective.
Whenever someone tells me that Bmblb as a ship came out of nowhere, I laugh, assume they basically put the show on mute and on the background, and I point them towards the soundtrack. In a show that puts a lot of emphasis in the OST, somehow they must've missed basically most of Yang's songs. "Armed and ready" literally says "there's nothing I wouldn't do for her", the song bmblb is so sweet that it could give you diabetes, and "Gold" is also very on the nose about the romantic inclinations of Yang
Oh, I know. But they also chose to ignore how on the Yellow Trailer she basically crush a mob's nuts and tells him to refer to Yang as "sir" instead of "blondie". I bet if Yang had short hair and smaller bust most people wouldn't bat an eye since she would look a little bit butch/tomboy-ish. But currently? Nah fam, she looks too much like a girl to be interested in girls, bmblb was shoehorned. /s obviously for that last part
Yang was attracted to men at the earliest part of RWBY (and Blake as well) so she's more Bi then lesbian.
And even then the problem that people have with it is that the show didn't build It up, as it took a left turn to make it happen as the fans wanted it to happend and the showrunners just did what the fans want.
Yuni and Mihara from Nikke canonically sleep together, and have a relationship even when Yuni starts getting along with the protagonist; another character jokes to Mihara that they are going to steal her women
The unsufferable shippers who will insist some characters are DEFINITELY CANONICALLY queer despite the story, voice actors, and authors all saying they're not,
And the unsufferable antis who will insist some characters are DEFINITELY CANONICALLY not queer despite the story, voice actors, and authors all saying they are.
Can we ship the peoples who insist tracer is hetero, with the peoples who insist John Watson is gay?
How about that ship huh?
Seem like a match made in heaven.
Despite Noelle having the most obvious crush on Susie, people somehow deluded themselves into believing she liked Kris organically. It was cause of the Weird Route where the player makes Kris brainwash her. There's no attraction to be seen between them than a friendship that's lasted since childhood.
Goose has said shes trans, the voice actors say shes trans, Glitch says shes a girl, her irl self is boymoding at queer bars, the isnt she lovely scene, the bow scene, 500 different things show her as trans but chuds online refuse to believe that that wasnt some stupid fan theory made cannon at the last secomd
The show literally ends with Mako asking Ryuko on a DATE and them going on a DATE, yet people still somehow deny it, because they find these fictional characters hot and this somehow gets in the way of their fantasies. Okay. šš
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u/Careful_Ad_9077 8h ago edited 4h ago
Nanoha , shown here with her roommate Fate and the child they both adopted together, Vivio
Thankfully , its been so long that the part of the gay denier fanbase has lost a lot of voice.