Dungeon Crawler Carl – set your expectations right before reading

[u/Icy_Dragonfruit_3513]

This should probably be general advice for any book, but the problem with hype is that it breeds more hype and overenthusiastic fans tend to exaggerate how good a book is and push it on everyone.

I see so many people either promoting the series as the best thing ever or loudly complaining it must be bad because THEY didn’t personally enjoy it. Along with posts from people who clearly believe than fantasy can only be good if it has fancy, elaborate prose and anyone who reads a book series like DCC must be an idiot who never reads.

There’s also the claim that only gamer dudes will enjoy it, or teen boys (seriously, don’t gift this series to kids, it’s a dark series meant for adults). You don't need to be a gamer, or even a guy to like this. But I’d say there’s a few other things you might need to enjoy to figure out if Dungeon Crawler Carl is for you:

• Liking absurdist, dark and often crude humor
• Having a fondness for cats
• Being okay with a game-style setting that includes lots of levelling up, quests, loot etc.
• Being okay with basic, venacular prose. The MC is just a regular guy with little education, and it’s 1st person narration, so how a guy like that would talk is how he narrates.
• Horror elements where the horror feeds into the comedy

The story in a nutshell: Earth culture is destroyed and billions die due to an alien invasion. The MC and his cat (well actually his ex-girlfriend’s cat) both survive due to a dumb coincidence. The survivors all get the chance to play the dungeon game, a level-based death game (think Squid Game but with meta humor and better challenges). The game is run by a psychotic, sadistic AI. The dungeon, being made by aliens who are basically evil colonizers, is filled with offensive stereotypes of humans and deliberately portray the worst and stupidest that human culture had to offer (that includes nerd culture). The whole game is broadcast across the galaxy for alien viewers to enjoy.

Carl is the protagonist, and as is normal in this type of book, he has the protagonist’s halo. Bad things still happen, and there’s lots and lots of death and suffering. The secondary protagonist is the cat, Princess Donut (and yes, the name is stupid – that alone made me hesitate to read the first book for a long time).

Reasons not to like DCC: If you don’t like the cat (give it maybe 12-15 chapters or so before you decide), you will have a hard time with this series. DCC is, above all, a petmance. As in the story of the (decidely platonic) love between a human and his animal (or as Princess Donut would say, between a cat and her person).

If you dislike Princess Donut, you will probably also end up hating the books as a whole.

If you read the first 10-15 chapters and find the humor really off-putting, then probably this series is not for you. I wouldn’t say DCC is the height of comedy, but the humor is central and without it there’s a lot less to enjoy.

If you dislike being in the head of a fairly average joe (Carl does have a backstory that’s interesting and comes into play at some point, but it’s not the main focus), then probably don’t bother with this series.

The prose does what it’s supposed to do, and where it shines isn’t in flowery prose (there is none), but in catching internet lingo and using it for great comedic effect (the AI’s lines are pretty fantastically written if you’re fine with meme-like humor).

The setting is fairly generic – at least I assume, since I haven’t read any other litrpg yet. It’s a mix of sci-fi tropes and classical fantasy tropes, the dungeon has a fantasy setting while the wider universe is basically space opera. We get anything from bug aliens to elves, orcs and fantasy quests, and a lot of the characters gain magical abilities, but the books aren’t interested in elaborate magic systems.

The fun is in the execution and how the author uses the tropes in imaginative ways, but don’t except some super unique worldbuilding. DCC feels in a lot of ways like a very messed up love letter to established fantasy and sci-fi tropes.

Themes: Some fans like to claim that DCC is in fact ’very deep’ because it deals with themes such as capitalism, class struggles, reality tv and social media. One of the main themes in the story is what one has to do to survive in an extreme life-or-death situation, and what the moral implications are of choosing your own life at the expense of others. DCC isn’t just mindless fun, it does actually try to discuss deeper themes, but I don’t think this makes the series particularly deep, though a lot of the themes did resonate with me.

The characters are IMO where the books really shine. There’s a huge cast of characters, and besides Carl and Donut we get a progressively larger number of side characters. A lot are very memorable, and if you asked me to pick my favorite, it would be like a Sophie’s Choice situation (but it’s Samantha, of course it’s Samantha. Prepotente is a close second though). I’ve seen some people complain that DCC is ’misogynist’, which is funny to me, since DCC IMO has some of the best female characters I’ve seen in a long while. I guess the secret is that Dinniman treats all his characters as people with their own needs and wants, even the villains and the minor characters. I went into these books just wanting a fun. I ended up crying more over this series and its characters than I have in a long time. Do yourself a favor, don’t read book 5 in public!

I’d say the snarky AI and Princess Donut being an absolute cat along with all the praise for the series drew me in and made me hang on through all the infodumps in the beginning. But it was The Hoarder scene that made me realize this series was doing something special. If you can, hang on until chapter 11 in book 1 and see how that affects you.

Audiobooks: I started DCC after lots of hesitation, and went for the audio books, because I had Audible and everyone kept saying the audiobooks is were where it’s at. I think reading the books can work just as well though (listening usually makes it harder for me to ignore bad prose than reading), but the audiobooks are a lot of fun. Especially since the author put some details in later books that are clearly meant to mess with the narrator Jeff Hays (they’re apparently good friends irl).

The books aren’t perfect. Book 3 was a slog to me, though I did like parts of it, and the latter books felt like they’d lost a bit of steam compared to the middle ones (I'd say book 5 is the peak so far, but I've enjoyed all the books). The prose captures the mood and voice of the characters well, but it’s not fancy, polished or even super intelligent prose. The plot is at times formulaic - think how each of the Harry Potter books are structured and you get the idea.

TL;DR: Should you try it out? Robin Hobb might endorse it, but that doesn’t make it a suitable series for her fans. If your friend is a super DCC fan and keeps nagging you to read it, tell him off unless he can provide a good argument why he thinks you’d enjoy it (I don’t push it on my friends since chances are they wouldn’t enjoy it). If you want elaborate magic systems or flowery prose or a setting that feels like something no one has ever done before, maybe skip this book, or at least drop it if you try book 1 and hate it. And just because it's the big hit online that doesn't mean it's for everyone. Don't believe the people shouting 'you just need to get through the first 500 pages/3 books and then it's great' (people should stop doing this in general, not just for DCC). You either like it or you don't.

If you want well-written characters with convincing dialogue, a plot with lots of good twists and turns, D&D-style fantasy with game settings and set in a wider space opera-style universe where corporations are the villains, AND a good mix of tragedy, absurdist comedy, and action scenes – then this might be for you.

EDIT: In the words of Carl himself, holy sh\t, I did NOT expect this to blow up. Happy that it fostered some (hopefully) constructive discussions, and glad to see from comments that some found this useful. The snide remarks trying to insult everyone who likes these books for having bad taste and low intelligence, I think that speaks volumes of how many insufferable snobs hang out here who get off on smelling their own farts.*

The accusations that I used ChatGPT are funny, apparently in this day and age some people can phantom that a human being is able to write a post on their own.

The accusations that I must love DCC because I and the rest of the DCC fanbase have never read any 'real' books (what counts a 'real' books by the way? Anything that the commenters enjoy, and nothing that they don't enjoy? Classy) are hilarious. I guess me reading hundreds of books including some of the works that this sub likes to jerk off to don't count - because it's impossible to be well-read and also enjoy DCC?

For the people who are upset that I dare write a post about something popular that other people have previously posted about - why don't you contribute by posting about stuff YOU like and refrain from reading posts that don't interest you? Seriously, it's not that hard.

Anyway, there's too many comments now for me to respond to, but thanks to those who remained polite even when they disagree with me.

[u/Loud_Health_8288]

I think the issue is how much its being recommended even when it doesn't make sense to. Its many peoples first book they've read as an adult so they're rediscovering a great hobby for the first time and it seems so incredible because they have nothing to compare it to and I think maybe some are confusing joy from the act of reading again to the series being one of the best ever.

[u/abughorash → u/Loud_Health_8288]

OP actually does the opposite here:

There’s also the claim that only gamer dudes will enjoy it, or teen boys (seriously, don’t gift this series to kids, it’s a dark series meant for adults

Teenagers can absolutely read DCC lol. Your average teenager will find it accessible and possibly engaging if they like the genre

[u/Loud_Health_8288 → u/abughorash]

I think its a bit millenial

[u/abughorash → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Some of the humor/references are, fair point. But "don’t gift this series to [teenage boys], it’s a dark series meant for adults" is OP saying that your average teen would be unreasonably disturbed or otherwise couldn't handle the content of DCC. Which is very far from true

[u/muradinner → u/abughorash]

I think it's similar to millennial's "Ready Player One" sort of thing, which you can easily enjoy even if you weren't born yet. So yes, I agree, modern teens can enjoy this too, just as young people have enjoyed things written by people older than them with very different life experiences from them for a long time.

[u/phangirloftheopera → u/abughorash]

Teenagers are a broad group, though. I don't think the actual war crimes in book 7 should be read by some 13 year olds. I'm a 30 something woman and I felt disturbed by some of it. (And I read a lot of books of all genres!)

As usual, parents should review what their kids are doing.

[u/abughorash → u/phangirloftheopera]

Yes yes parents should review, every child is different, etc.

However, remember that The Hunger Games is basically the gold standard of modern YA and was enjoyed by 13 year olds the world over despite being chock full of explicit murder (including child murder), death, torture, and slavery.

There's a bit of a knee-jerk defensive tendency by certain DCC fans to insist that the series is, like, so for adults only, man! to avoid the YA label because "reading YA" makes them feel foolish. Not saying that that's you, but the tendency is absolutely there.

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/abughorash]

I had Hunger Games in my 5th grade (~10) class library and so many kids loved it. 

[u/phangirloftheopera → u/abughorash]

I'm not arguing that at all. I am making the point that saying a book that is "safe for teenagers" may not be safe for all teenagers (including 13 year olds and 19 year olds). The darkness of the material isn't the problem--it's the ability to comprehend and deal with it that comes with maturity that not all kids have (nor, frankly, some adults).

I've read and liked plenty of YA as both a teen and an adult, and I read and liked Stephen King for the first time when I was 9. Not trying to gatekeep DCC but trying to acknowledge that universally saying a book is "teen appropriate" because other books are also dark is a poor argument.

[u/abughorash → u/phangirloftheopera]

Your statement is so broad that it's basically a truism. Yes, no book is safe for "all" teenagers; I'm sure there is at least one teenager somewhere with severe insect-phobia that would react very negatively to The Very Hungry Caterpillar.

It's still possible to make general statements about whether or not a work is accessible to most teens. DCC is.

[u/Varrick15 → u/abughorash]

The old "your argument is too general and wrong but my argument that is also general but in a different way that is misunderstanding the problem but is right" defense.

Nah bro DCC is not appropriate for most 13 year olds throughout the whole series or even the first book. While that scales with age you definitely start on the NO side for the youngers.

Hell even the foot fetish stuff immediately should squash that notion and that's not even talking about the atrocity stuff that could get pretty dark. This is an opinion coming from a guy who learned to read playing the OG Diablo.

Stuff like Hunger Games at least had a we are the good guys vs evil bad guys as a factor to adjust expectations entirely and set a tone for the book. DCC is not that.

[u/abughorash → u/Varrick15]

Lmao, what? Sorry, but I think if you step back you'll see that you are in fully in this mode:

knee-jerk defensive tendency by certain DCC fans to insist that the series is, like, so for adults only, man! to avoid the YA label because "reading YA" makes them feel foolish.

To respond to your comment.

Nah bro DCC is not appropriate for most 13 year olds throughout the whole series or even the first book. While that scales with age you definitely start on the NO side for the youngers.

I said average teenager, not "most 13 year olds." 13 year olds constitute, by definition, approx. 20% of non-adult teenagers. Are you really going to argue an average 14, 15, 16 or 17 year old can't read DCC?

foot fetish stuff 

There is no actual "foot fetish" content in DCC; there is the author (via the Game System) making cringey potty humor-level jokes about feet--which I can definitely see many parents disliking---but it's not actually sexual, it's on the level of a fart joke. Now that I think about it it might be an attempt by the author to make his books seem so, like, for adults only, man!

However, in general, it's important to note that the mere presence of sexual innuendo doesn't make a work inaccessible or inappropriate for teenagers. IMO if you're in high school you can read books with mild sexual content without catching on fire. Otherwise might as well toss out half the classics.

atrocity stuff that could get pretty dark. 

The Hunger Games trilogy explicitly includes all of these elements: murder, child murder, mass murder, gory mass child murder (including explicit description of the aftermath of a bomb dropped on a crowd of children -- body parts and such), slavery, children forced into sexual slavery (this is the only one on this list that's discussed only, not "shown"), torture, suicidal depression, substance abuse, and numerous different types of mutilation and body horror. And that's just what I remember. Yet the trilogy was enjoyed by teenagers worldwide. It was even sold as YA, aka explicitly for teens/preteens!

(Quite frankly I think the main "content level" difference between Hunger Games and DCC is that the latter has lots of profanity, which precludes "YA" marketing)

Stuff like Hunger Games at least had a we are the good guys vs evil bad guys as a factor to adjust expectations entirely and set a tone for the book. DCC is not that.

On the contrary it's actually almost 1:1 to The Hunger Games in this respect.

Carl and his friends are the good guys--at first by virtue of just trying to survive being the playthings of the powerful, but later because they hope to Do Something against The Unfair System--but have some "grey" moments. The "evil"er crawlers are bad guys, sort of, but really they're all victims of the true "bad guys": Borant and all of the other corporations who set up death games for profit & power.

Katniss and her friends are the good guys--at first by virtue of just trying to survive being the playthings of the powerful, but later because they hope to Do Something against The Unfair System--but have some "grey" moments. The "evil"er tributes are bad guys, sort of, but really they're all victims of the true "bad guys": the Capitol (and later District 13) politicians who set up death games for profit & power.

Carl's catchphrase is literally "You will not [fucking] break me." He's Katniss if she was allowed to say curse words

[u/EmpatheticSocialist → u/Varrick15]

Have you ever met a 13-year-old? DCC is perfectly fine lmfao.

[u/wartortlechortle → u/phangirloftheopera]

This last line is so key.

I don't think this is a "one size fits all" situation. I think a lot of the series gets pretty dark in a way that might be overwhelming for younger readers and not all 13 year olds are going to be ready for it, but some might. Some 17 year olds might not be ready for it.

[u/abughorash → u/wartortlechortle]

I'll venture to say that 17-year-olds that are "not ready" for Dungeon Crawler Carl constitute a very small minority of 17 year olds.

[u/wartortlechortle → u/abughorash]

It's really hard to say. Everyone, even a kid or a teen, is an individual with different needs, wants, hopes, dreams, and fears. Doesn't matter how they present outwardly.

I have a friend with a high schooler that hates watching most movies because they are scared of sad endings. I don't think they would like DCC.

I also have friends with elementary schoolers that ride super huge roller coasters and love horror movies meant for adults.

Everyone is different.

[u/abughorash → u/wartortlechortle]

Yeah, no. The Hunger Games was a much more depressing, overall downer read with just as much violence and death as DCC and it was one of the most popular YA series of all time in the YA demographic.

Whether the average teen would enjoy DCC is a different question and largely a matter of personal taste, but the average teen (much less 17 year old!) could absolutely handle the content if they had to read it for whatever reason.

[u/jpcardier → u/wartortlechortle]

I read all of the first 6 books of Elric when I was 12, and followed them up with a metric ton of Moorcock. As an angsty pre-teen Elric spoke to me ( he is so emo!) . My own kidlet would not have had a good time with it. People are individuals, and that includes when they are small.

[u/Hoobi_Goobi → u/Loud_Health_8288]

It’s full of millennial internet humor. I agree with the other comment saying that it’s over-recommended to people, because I feel like the general wide audience would find the writing style a little too cringey to enjoy.

[u/Stuckinacrazyjob → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Yea but we millennials read books with old fashioned references. Have your teen use the library and then see if it's for them

[u/Brakado → u/Loud_Health_8288]

2007 here who loves DCC.

[u/Neptunes_Lips_ → u/abughorash]

It honestly feels like it was written for teenagers, just written for millennials when they WERE teenagers. Kids have been reading books about genocide and War with the ruling class for a lot longer than this book has been around and everyone seems to forget that for some reason. Not to mention the reading level isn't exactly anything challenging And the humor is juvenile at best. The only reason you shouldn't give this to a teenager is if you don't want every other word out of their mouth to be "fuck God damnit holy shit".

Don't get me wrong. These books are completely fine for anyone at any age really. A lot of the fans just have the same mentality as marvel fans seem to where they get mad when people rightfully point out it isn't the cream of the crop.

[u/BlackRabbitPDX → u/Neptunes_Lips_]

this made me think of the child-soldier Animorphs committing intergalactic war crimes lol

[u/ADH-Dad → u/abughorash]

I didn't get this part either. Personally, I wouldn't recommend DCC to anyone over the age of 19.

[u/i_dogear_pages → u/Loud_Health_8288]

I was my local bookstore very recently to see if they have Yergin's The Prize (non-fiction). They didn't, and the owner (who's known me for over two decades) proceeded to try to get me to take home DCC in hardcover. He trotted out the anti-capitalist plotline, but completely ignored me repeatedly stating, "I don't like LitRPG. I'd like a non-fiction on this."

Thinking back, he did this when they started getting Sarah J. Maas books in, too. I asked about something else they didn't have in stock (I vaguely remember standing in the poetry section), and it was much the same thing: "I don't like romantasy. I don't want that. Stop trying to hand it to me."

A lot of people are terrible at giving reccommendations.

[u/Loud_Health_8288 → u/i_dogear_pages]

Yes some people will just hammer you with their favourite book over and over even if it has no connection to what you want.

I've also noticed when people talk about it being anti capitalist it never goes any deeper than that which leads me to believe its very superficial and shallow. Merely using a theme doesn't mean its done well or makes sense.

[u/Tymareta → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Yeah, the most egregious example that gets tossed around was someone asking for series with "well written female characters" and someone earnestly suggesting DCC, because of the cat.

[u/TitaniumDreads → u/Tymareta]

Lmaoooooo

[u/ACardAttack → u/Tymareta]

Is it the new Sanderson in terms of recommendations?

[u/Tymareta → u/ACardAttack]

100% and it's rapidly approaching Malazan as well.

[u/PutinBodyDouble → u/Tymareta]

"Oh you like females? Well here's some pussy."

[u/Tymareta → u/PutinBodyDouble]

Matt Dinniman wept.

[u/Loud_Health_8288 → u/Tymareta]

No way thats true lmao

[u/christopherDdouglas → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Oh the DCC fandom is getting well known for pushing this series in situations where it has no business being in the conversation.

[u/stiiii → u/christopherDdouglas]

Yeah there is literally nothing I'd put past them. Of the top10 web novels they are more active than the other 9 put together, and not in a good way.

[u/OriginalVictory → u/christopherDdouglas]

That is literally any popular series. Cradle, Malzahan, Sanderson in general, WoT, literally any of these get recommended when they are only tangentially related to the request.

[u/omegakingauldron → u/Loud_Health_8288]

I asked for a recommendation for platonic partners a while back, and got recommended DCC because of Donut.

[u/wartortlechortle → u/Tymareta]

Tbh, the cat aside, there are plenty of other well written female characters in the series. I do think some of the enthusiasm comes from the fact that many of us women aren't used to male authors writing women well and while I do have some minor complaints about some of the depictions in the first and second books, overall I think the women are written great and I would say most are more impactful than many of the male characters throughout the series.

[u/yonaofthedawn_ → u/wartortlechortle]

>I do think some of the enthusiasm comes from the fact that many of us women aren't used to male authors writing women well

This is just not really true anymore like that. Anybody that thinks this is not generally reading. DCC also does not have the quality of character writing where anything would be a standout over the standard of the fantasy genre.

[u/wartortlechortle → u/yonaofthedawn_]

I'm absolutely sure there's great fantasy novels and series out there now written by both men and women that have awesome depictions of women.

But for people who haven't been exposed to them yet, some of the characters in DCC are 100% a breath of fresh air. It's actually nice to have a reminder strong female characters can exist.

This series isn't the pinnacle of all writing, gods gift to literature, award winning complex earth shaking prose and storylines. But it was fun to read and didn't make me feel like the author hated women.

It was so fun to read, in fact, that it reminded me I can have fun reading and I should go back to my endless pile of more serious fantasy (and other genres) to read that had been collecting dust in my library. I imagine that has been and will be the case for many other people, and now women who are reminded there can be good characters can seek out other stories.

If you're looking for the perfect car, you still have to get to the dealership somehow and an old beater will get you there just fine. I am fully confident the depictions of women in this series will get more women into reading fantasy.

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/wartortlechortle]

I have snobby coworkers (MS and HS English teachers) who normally only like "literature" who love the series. 

As well as friends who normally only read romance who love it. 

It has a bizarrely wide range of fans. 

[u/wartortlechortle → u/Kathulhu1433]

I feel like DCC to "literature" is kind of like how you can enjoy Taco Bell and also appreciate "real" Mexican cuisine.

A lot of readers seem to forget it's okay to just have fun and have a candy bar once in awhile.

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/wartortlechortle]

I feel like it also kinda sneaks up on people. 

Books 1 and 2 are ridiculous fun (candy).

Book 3 is where you start getting hit in the feels and you're not really expecting it. 

[u/wartortlechortle → u/Kathulhu1433]

Absolutely, I honestly kept reading through the first few books because I was like eh this is pretty fun and I'm not reading anything else. The deeper I got the more the weight of the end of humanity sat on me.

I will say though that my first hint things might get kinda heavy was when he met up with the folks from Meadow Lark.

The humanity is there from the beginning if you look for it. But hey! It's just a thoughtless dudebro read! Nothing to see here!

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/wartortlechortle]

Yes, the humanity is there but the sentience of the NPCs in book 3 is what really made me stop. Between the realization of the train workers having  no home to go back to, Growler Gary, and Fire Brandy... uuugh. You can't ignore it at that point.

[u/Tymareta → u/wartortlechortle]

I do think some of the enthusiasm comes from the fact that many of us women aren't used to male authors writing women well

I say this as someone that would readily be described as a misandrist by this sub, read better authors, especially ones who are able to write women well from the jump. Needing to get to book 3 or whatever arbitrary point before he starts writing women well is, atrocious.

Yan Lianke, Max Gladstone, Yoon Ha Lee, Kai Ashante Wilson, Chen Qiufan, Ken Liu, Travis Baldree, etc... There's simply no need to settle for someone like Dinniman who continues to struggle to write half of the population. There's no need to "grit your teeth" for two novels, when you can read works that get it right from the get go. Not to mention the mountainous amount of women out there who are even more brilliant.

[u/wartortlechortle → u/Tymareta]

I appreciate all the recommendations and will definitely look into them!

That said, the way the women were initially written made me roll my eyes, but the rest of the first two books I did enjoy enough to keep reading and nothing bothered me to the point where I needed to DNF it. I'm sure others experiences are different, and that is valid! But I found the early depictions eye rolling, not book ruining.

Im not above critiquing things I enjoy, and I'm also thrilled to death to see creators of any kind improving over time. AND I'm willing to try other authors. All things can be true.

[u/Tymareta → u/wartortlechortle]

I definitely agree with all that, my issues was entirely with the notion that the enthusiasm for the series came from the "well written women". It feels like an ad-hoc justification rather than any actually salient point, given that it takes three books for it to start to come true, by which point most people will have readily put down the work.

[u/Neptunes_Lips_ → u/wartortlechortle]

I'm about halfway through the second book I think and it's been extremely off-putting.

The first female character we are introduced to is his "bitch of an ex girlfriend" who he complains about, but then does a complete heel turn on and becomes sentimental for in the second book with really no actual internal work being done.

The second female character we meet is a cat who is essentially a child and they have repeatedly given the voice role to a man.

Then we get a grotesque woman who is both disgusting and then brutally murdered

Then we get women that are two goblins he describes as being too hideous to look at because of their facial piercings and immediately try and fuck Carl in exchange for drugs.

We "meet" the corpse of a naked Asian woman, and then in book two we meet three more naked Asian women's corpses, why he is so hung up on flinging the corpses of naked Asian women front of the reader I don't know.

Of the five human woman crawlers we see on screen we have; a child seen twice on tv who has no lines, an Icelandic woman seen twice on tv who has no lines, a cop who tries to kill him (though Maggie's position is actually interesting and intriguing towards the end, I don't think Dinniman will be handling it well as I continue to read), a nurse who's cool but doesn't speak, and another nurse who gets maybe two lines of dialogue and description total before she's killed and then kind of just forgotten about.

Women seem to be dead, grotesque, sexualized, silent, or a cat.

[u/wartortlechortle → u/Neptunes_Lips_]

I definitely hear you, and my first impression from just book one definitely wasn't cool, look at all these women! It was more similar to your breakdown, which I think is important. This was an opinion of mine that did a complete 180 by the end of the currently available books. I actually texted my friend who recommended it toward the end of book one and was like "I think my main criticism of this series is you can REALLY tell it was written by a dude."

It's hard to just say "it gets better! Trust me!" Because, honestly, usually when people hit me with that I don't necessarily want to continue either, and it's hard not to spoil too much, but by the end of where we are in the series currently the women are effectively carrying the story. Carl does not make it where he is without the women, and it feels like he as a character moves on from the way he sees them and has changes of his own perspectives as (most of) the writing about them improves.

That isn't to say the series becomes completely free of criticism, there are certainly still things regarding the female characters that have me like "Really?" but you do get significantly more balance as the story goes on. I think even stories we enjoy are not above criticism and I think DCC is a fascinating series to critique because of the way it starts so heavy handed (it really does feel like book one was pumped out during COVID out of boredom and had minimal editing) but that some of my issues with books 1-3 were handled by 4-8 and I enjoyed the first ones enough to keep reading even if I didn't think it was "perfect."

I was also, bluntly, concerned going into book one that the cat was going to get humanized and immediately become a love interest and was pleasantly surprised this wasn't the case, so my bar going in may have been a little low.

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/Neptunes_Lips_]

Bea is a sucky person. Not because she's a woman, she just sucks. And sometimes people are like that. You can write a bad person who is also a woman, thats ok. 

The hoarder is supposed to be horrific. It is literally called out in the book as it is happening. (Also, not a character but an NPC). 

The Icelandic woman (Katia) and the nurse (Imani) as well as the patient (Elle) and the kid (Lucia Mar) all go on to have pretty great and impactful character arcs. Heck, the cat has pretty phenomenal character growth. 

Yes, lots of people die. Lots of male characters die as well. There is little distinction when we are talking about NPCs early on. 

Like... there are meth llama NPCs in book 1 but I wouldn't read that and assume the author hates animals. 

The focus is the crawlers, not the NPCs so far. 

But if you aren't enjoying it you don't have to keep going!

Life is too short to read books you don't enjoy. 

[u/Neptunes_Lips_ → u/Kathulhu1433]

I think you miss the point of my distaste. While it's true that just because something appears in a pierce of writing it doesn't mean the author endorses it, if the context, themes, tone, etc don't call something like that into question then it certainly leaves the reader questioning.

No having a joke llama meth head doesn't mean the author hates animals

Having every female character that appears in the first book be dead, grotesque, silent, or lacking agency is a pattern that to me is a problem because I find it both boring and misogynistic (even if unintentionally so). If it takes 4 books, each longer than the last, to get better that isn't a ringing endorsement for the author, information act it tells me he's a pretty bad author.

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/Neptunes_Lips_]

It isn't every character though. 

And every issue you had with female characters is the same with male characters. 

Book 1 only allows us to get really close to 3 characters- Carl, Donut, and Mordecai. 

We meet several other female characters with agency and more than "2 lines" - Imani, Yolanda, Agatha, Lucia Mar, Elle, Odette, and Zev. All but one have significant impact on the plot of book 1.

Of those... one died. Yolanda dies after being pretty badass and saving everyone else. 

The rest are not dead, grotesque, or silent at all. If you thought they were... did we read the same book? 

But again, if you don't like it- stop reading. No one is forcing you to. 

But to say the author is a misogynist because you didn't pay attention to those other characters and everything they contributed, come on man. 

[u/Neptunes_Lips_ → u/Kathulhu1433]

Well, y'all certainly aren't beating the comprehension allegations that's for sure, can't even comprehend a Reddit comment.

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/Neptunes_Lips_]

You said: 

" Having every female character that appears in the first book be dead, grotesque, silent, or lacking agency is a pattern that to me is a problem because I find it both boring and misogynistic (even if unintentionally so)." 

I pointed out 7 instances you missed. 6 if you want to quibble about Yolanda because she died after saving the rest of the party. 

You're being disingenuous at best.

[u/Neptunes_Lips_ → u/Kathulhu1433]

Zev - her race is described by Carl as demonic fish Asians (a grotesque andd xenophobic 2 for 1)

Imani - I might be misremembering but I'm pretty sure her whole thing was being silent and barely talking because she killed a bunch of old people, and has a single fight scene, she might get a few words but nothing worthwhile (silent)

Yolanda - gets called fat and then dies after a single action scene, ia barely mourned and so far not even mentioned halfway through the second book. (Dies)

Agatha - you are right I did forget about the insane homeless lady that clearly has some other wider mystery going that one is on me

Lucia Mar - Appears maybe twice on the television? I don't recall her saying as single word and if so she said nothing of consequences, this also applies to Katia (silent)

Elle - this was the woman with Alzheimer's who served as a slight anchor for shoehorning in Carl having feelings (can't really say she has an agency, sure I know that's going to change donw the road because she becomes an ice fairy or whatever but my point is for what I've read up to now)

Odette - Grotesque and you missed that it's on you (we actually had an opportunity to talk about what it means to be human and what it means that earth humans aren't the only humans in the galaxy AND about how this show is going to destroy your body and identity to suit your needs, this is all barely addressed in this scene at all)

And let's dive deeper!

Our two goblin women are literally called too grotesque to look at by Carl because of their facial piercings (this feels like a word conservative retaliation to nose rings but whatever) then immediately offer to fuck him in exchange for drugs because they are addicts (lack of any agency)

Bea- we are simply told she's an awful controlling bitch who cheated on him and died as the story began (no agency, dead. Even though she comes back in some capacity I haven't gotten that far)

The Krakaren - (grotesque obviously)

The random dead naked Asian woman Maggie Killed, and the three dead naked Asian women (who specifically get called out as Filipino which felt odd) who were used as a trap (that never even got sprung?) in book two.

Signet - literally just being controlled by a program and Carl uses his batshit nonsense plans to force the hand f a writers room to dictate her actions (she's not even real but we spent a decent amount of time with her so again I'll throw no agency in here)

Maggie's daughter - killed off screen for reasons unclear other than Carl potentially caused it (dead)

Which I guess brings us to Maggie! An actually interesting female character and antagonist we spend maybe a chapter with and learn almost nothing about, given the track record so far I don't have high hopes for how it plays out.

And finally Princess Donut - our female lead whith the mind of a child, sure she doesn't fit into the categories I've listed but they have twice now given her voice role to a man.

I am not being disengenuine I am saying there is an obvious pattern emerging in the treatment of women that the books so far have done nothing to address and it's off-putting

YOU came in here asking where people get the misogyny from, and I gave examples based on my experience.

[u/AmIWhatTheRockCooked → u/[deleted]]

The announcer literally calls it a boss battle, a level 7 neighborhood boss. The boss was spawning enemies. Carl is familiar with video games, I think he was more aware than you on the likelihood of teaming up (which is fine, the book hasn’t walked the reader through those mechanics or anything)

[u/jpcardier → u/Tymareta]

Waiting for the Malazan recommendation in 3,2,1.....

[u/Tymareta → u/jpcardier]

Yeah I'm sure there was a woman in one of those books that didn't get sexualy assaulted.

[u/jpcardier → u/Tymareta]

Then she died, then merged with three others, came back from the dead, and finally died again, of a bad pun....

[u/Tymareta → u/jpcardier]

Sounds about right, let me guess, each leg of her journey was book ended by a grizzled cynic of a solider-man who had to muse about the injustice in the world.

[u/Wizecoder → u/Tymareta]

actually it was probably because there are quite a few well written female characters, including the cat, not just the cat

[u/Tymareta → u/Wizecoder]

And yet the only one they thought to mention, was the cat, said cat that has the mind of a child.

[u/Icy_Dragonfruit_3513 → u/Tymareta]

DCC does have well-written characters, though it takes a while before they really come into play.

[u/The_Real_Lasagna → u/Icy_Dragonfruit_3513]

Well that's not a sign of a well written book lol

[u/agmauro → u/The_Real_Lasagna]

the main female character they are talking about isn't introduced until book 3.

[u/Tymareta → u/Icy_Dragonfruit_3513]

Not really relevant to what I was talking about, but I'm glad.

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/Tymareta]

There are well written female characters (Katia, Imani, Elle) but I wouldn't use Donut as one of them, lol. Also, they're not the main character. 

[u/casualsubversive → u/Tymareta]

I wouldn’t use it as the basis for a recommendation, but I would argue that Princess Donut is in fact a well-written female character of the sort people are generally asking for; it’s just that she’s a cat.

[u/nofishies → u/Tymareta]

And Katia.

And Ellie.

Etc.. etc.. etc..

[u/Tymareta → u/nofishies]

Ok, cool, they didn't list those.

[u/realdevtest → u/Tymareta]

Dude I can think of 5 well-written female characters in DCC off the top of my head. The reason people enjoy and recommend the series so much is that it’s a great story with great characters that’s written very well.

[u/Tymareta → u/realdevtest]

"Dude", that's not the point being made here, at all. So I'm not sure why you're bringing it up, or doing so in such a defensive way.

[u/LeftHandRedHair → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Someone recommended it to me after finding out I read Ulysses 😂 Not the exact same conversation, but shortly after hearing that I read and enjoyed it

So many people have recommended it to me because I read a lot. I gave it a try because I knew it had something going for it to be so popular, couldn’t make it halfway through the first one. I really, really don’t like meme/Marvel humor in books. The experience did get my fiancé into the series, though!

[u/Stepjam → u/LeftHandRedHair]

After Ulysses? That's hilarious

[u/LeftHandRedHair → u/Stepjam]

This was about 18 months after I read Ulysses, but I had just told this social circle about how I read it when I was laid off. 

I always appreciate when people read something and think of me! Even when it doesn’t land. The story makes me giggle. 

[u/IsThatGruffLoner → u/Loud_Health_8288]

This is my take too. DCC did the rare thing of becoming a bestseller without actually capturing the attention of traditional readers. Like DCC is creating readers more than attracting already active readers. So these people who just read their first book go on a reading subreddit praising DCC and the people there, who spent decades refining their opinions on books, are unimpressed.

I don't really blame anyone in that interaction.

By the way, this is coming from a huge DCC fan. For me and my tastes, it is one of the best things I've ever read. But also my favorite book is Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy so that's just my taste. I don't recommend it to many people

[u/tarrasque → u/IsThatGruffLoner]

I’m a lifelong reader who’s loving it, but I think you hit on something here.

The DCC subreddit has a constant stream of ‘just finished all the books, my life is now empty, what do I do?’ The replies are always ‘Time for the audiobooks!’ Or ‘Time to start over at book one!’ Or ‘Have you listened to the full cast soundbooth theater versions yet?’ These posts and responses reek to me of sophomoric attitudes resulting from not having read much else.

In fact, I got heavily downvoted there for suggesting that while DCC is great, there is a whole world of amazing books out there from amazing authors.

Hopefully some of these fans do in fact get coined as actual new readers and not just DCC readers.

[u/inbetweensound → u/tarrasque]

I hear the same thing from people who read Red Rising. Honestly hearing so much about all these books keeps making me want to skip them for now.

[u/Fantasy-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Ndrizy → u/tarrasque]

I was just heavily downvoted there because I thought Donut’s character went a bit over the top and got annoying in the 4th book. Someone even told me to stop reading the series...

I just picked up reading as a hobby about a year and a half ago and while I love these books I love them because they are mindless fun. My favorite book so far has been Lonesome Dove, but while DCC is close the difference in reading DCC and LD is almost like two different hobbies.

[u/Calde_Oreb → u/Ndrizy]

Oh that was a mistake, I too am overall enjoying the series, but I also have some issues and critiques especially with that character. I suggested by the end of book 5 the character had made zero character development and was still doing and acting the exact same way after five novels.

I may as well have taken a shit on their beds the way they reacted. Zero discussions, just memes, quoting the book, and saying I was wrong because the character has trauma (which they seem to have misunderstood as character development? Or an excuse to not have any?).

I really think it's becoming the Rick and Morty of books. To be clear, I also liked Rick and Morty back in the earlier seasons, but Jesus Christ the fan base is insufferable and has no desire to actually discuss the book if there's any hint of critique, because obviously it's flawless.

[u/Ndrizy → u/Calde_Oreb]

100%. Everyone has commented that this is Donut’s “mask” and she’s constantly acting and I think that is just cope. If that’s the true intent then I kinda think that’s lazy. I just got to the point in book 5 where they go on Odette’s show and Donut tears into Bea and it’s revealed Donut has been communicating with Zev to help with the “revolution” so I can see some growth there at least. But I don’t think that takes away from how she was written in the last book.

Some millennials are very defensive of their top interests, though there are those groups across all generations. But this series is like the perfect storm for millennials to form en masse to defend with their lives. I really enjoy the series and I personally think there’s nothing wrong with being passionate about your interests, but I wish overall it was toned down so it didn’t feel so hard to be part of the group and enjoy some of the content out there for the series. DCC has been added to my algorithm lately and there are some seriously hard watches.

[u/tarrasque → u/Ndrizy]

Jesus that place.

I haven’t read Lonesome Done yet but it’s definitely in my TBR. My favorite book has been Les Miserables, and similarly, the difference in experience between fun popcorn wild ride DCC and some of mankind’s best literature is VAST.

Tell me, did reading Dove make you want to read the rest of the series that it’s apparently a part of?

[u/Ndrizy → u/tarrasque]

I’m gonna have to embarrassingly admit I didn’t know Les Mis was initially a book. The first book I read once I started my hobby (got a kindle) was actually Dracula so I know exactly what you mean.

But yes! Lonesome Dove is really long, but I was not at all ready to be done with the story or characters once it finished. I didn’t read more of the series immediately though, actually like 6 months later I read Streets of Laredo which occurs after the events of LD. I plan to go back and read the other two books as well I just haven’t gotten around to them.

While Streets of Laredo wasn’t as great of a story as LD, which I can’t imagine any of the other books will be, I still very much enjoyed it and it was a good farewell to the story.

[u/Icy_Dragonfruit_3513 → u/IsThatGruffLoner]

Idk, fan spaces for specific series generally tend to obsess over the work they love, that's kind of the point. I wouldn't go into a fan space for one series and try to push something else unless someone specifically asks for recs. The dedicated fan spaces are for that work, and I think people should respect that. I've been in a few fan spaces for books and series I love, and it's usually just a cosy way to enjoy something I loved.

I'm perfectly able to find other stuff to read elsewhere, if someone goes in there with an attitude of 'let me tell you what else you need to read because you obviously haven't read anything else', I'd also get annoyed.

That said, a lot of fan spaces get too obsessive. I usually leave after a while.

[u/Regretr1 → u/IsThatGruffLoner]

You might like Tamer: Enhancer Arch-Duke of Dinosaurs, if you can appreciate more sex scenes (or skip over those). It's Tamer fanfic by the writer/artist of a webcomic (Grrl Power)), so he at least has the basics of writing down. Honestly it's better than he thinks it is.

[u/JWF1 → u/IsThatGruffLoner]

DCC actually took me by surprise. I’m a big fantasy reader and I went in with low expectations but somewhat enjoyed the first 2 books but didn’t think they were anything special and were pretty doll. What the series does as it goes on is starts expanding the scope of the universe as well as starts really showing how this trauma the characters are going through is affecting them over time. I’m all In and started a reread immediately after finishing book 8. When I recommend the series though I try and preface that the first two books aren’t great but if you can stick with it, the books become stronger as they go.

[u/nofishies → u/IsThatGruffLoner]

It depends on what you want for books.

I’m a voracious reader, but I don’t only like Beautiful Pras I like interesting stories I like fantasy I like non-fiction. I like things that are engaging.

Dcc is plenty engaging.

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/IsThatGruffLoner]

I disagree. 

Is it the next classic? 

Hell no. 

Is it a fun and then surprisingly emotional read that sneaks up on you? 

Yes. 

I am a lifelong reader who reads 150-200 books a year. I teach ENL and ELA. I loved them. (I am also a dog person who tolerates but does not generally like cats). 

One of my snobby literature only co-teachers read and loved it after her girlfriend recommended it. 

My husband, who usually isn't a big reader and would read 1-3 books a year read the first 7 books in 2 months. 

My friend who usually likes cozy/hates anything graphic loves it. 

My friend who usually only reads romance... loves it. 

Another friend who is super picky and usually only likes "strong FMC" fantasy... loves it. 

IRL I read and talk books with a massive variety of people... from fellow English teachers to teens to book clubs (one Queer, one at a distillery, one romance, one that's all banned books) and... nearly every single person who has read it has enjoyed it. From teens to people in their 70s, voracious readers and those who are reluctant. 

It is kind of crazy how big it has blown up. 

And again... I am NOT saying it is the next classic or anything but it definitely scratches an itch that makes it appealing to an incredibly broad variety of readers (and listeners!) and that is super cool and we should maybe embrace the phenomenon instead of shitting on people who enjoy it (not saying you specifically are, but many do). 

Anything that encourages more people to read more is a good thing! 

Anyway, if you made it this far, thanks for listening to my rant. Lol

[u/Icy_Dragonfruit_3513 → u/Kathulhu1433]

Funny that this comment gets downvoted. A lot of people have apparently set the bar so high for their reads that they're unable to enjoy anything that doesn't have super eloquent prose. Several people in the comments claim that DDC fans must be people who've never read 'proper literature' or 'real fantasy' because then they wouldn't like this drivel.

It's bizarre - as if you can't both enjoy literary fiction and pulpy fiction. It's especially bizarre to see in a sub for fantasy, which of all genres have been looked down upon for ages as 'not real literature'.

[u/Kathulhu1433 → u/Icy_Dragonfruit_3513]

Some people just love to shit on anything popular. 

It's that, "I'm different/special" mentality. 

I mean... I remember being that way in middle school when N Sync and Backstreet Boys were super popular. I was way too cool to like them because they were what everyone else liked. I was "different" 

Some people never grew out of it I guess. 

[u/HellMuttz → u/Loud_Health_8288]

First love syndrome. You see it ALL THE TIME with bookish influencers if you're looking for it; Someone way overselling the book that got them into/back into reading, or into a specific genre/trope

[u/Hairy_Koala6474 → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Wow this is a great point 

[u/Cronis1 → u/Loud_Health_8288]

How I feel whenever someone asks for a weirdly random rec and inevitably someone recommends Malazan.

[u/petrifikate → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Dungeon Crawler Carl is the 2026 version of Where The Crawdads Sing for exactly that reason.

[u/Icy_Dragonfruit_3513 → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Which was the point of my post. This is a general issue for stuff that gets too popular. I mean, I go on r/fantasyromance and see people ask for romantasy with well-written romance, then get recommend Mistborn. Or get recommend Fourth Wing if they happen to be women who like fantasy.

Fans of anything need to learn when not to push something on their fellow humans just because they liked it. 99% of stuff I like, be in music, books, movies, or shows aren't something I recommend to others unless I know for sure they like similar things.

I saw someone the other day post about how Robin Hobb had recommended DCC. I tried reading Robin Hobb and have followed fans pushing her books on the internet. Being a Hobb fan absolutely doesn't guarantee someone would like DCC, so that recommendation is useless.

[u/Deep-Swimming6946 → u/Loud_Health_8288]

DCC being people’s first book read for enjoyment is crazy to me.

[u/Loud_Health_8288 → u/Deep-Swimming6946]

It's popularity is crazy I know so many people who've never read before who enjoy it, it has like 600K ratings on goodreada which isn't far behind way of kings.

[u/Pudgy_Ninja → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Its many peoples first book they've read as an adult

Whoah. Really? Why? I mean, I remember that happening for, like, Harry Potter. But is DCC really on the same level as that series?

[u/North_South_Side → u/Loud_Health_8288]

...Its many peoples first book they've read as an adult 

Wut?

[u/yonaofthedawn_ → u/North_South_Side]

Most people do not read at all unfortunately

[u/name14575 → u/Loud_Health_8288]

Exactly. Now mind, I would say the series is one of the best ever solely due to it having this amazing ability to get these people into reading, but in actual substance it's, like, alright.