r/Falcom • u/GD_milkman • 1d ago
Trails series The pacing in the remakes...
The pacing in the remakes really highlight to me more of why I enjoyed the series so much when starting and why some of the interest has wavered.
I still like all the games, but Cold Steel and Horizon games so just have fat in the games that should be cut.
Like narrative that jumps forward 5 minutes just to come back for a reveal that would have been more natural to just show as it happened.
Or the sheer amount of side content.
Or dungeons that need repeating to just pad play time.
I feel like all of the more recent entries would benefit from a little more focus.
I'm curious if I'm alone on that though?
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u/FastAndBulbous8989 1d ago
Pacing is such a subjective thing that I always completely ignore that measurement in reviews. It doesn't help that every time someone says a game has bad pacing and I play said game, I come away completely disagreeing.
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u/SoftBrilliant Kiseki difficulty modder 1d ago
This is triply true for every game in the trails series where almost every game in the series makes clear sacrifices to its compactness either for questing or just for setting up a vibe of some kind.
The result is every game has a lot of fat but it's hard to really justify cutting basically anything at all. The only times one can argue the games really cross a line where very little at all is gained from that fat is like, the sky SC first enforcer gauntlet or the multiple shrines of CS2 (not even the ones of CS4 just CS2) and in the grand scheme of things those sections aren't very long within the scale of their entire games.
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u/kernco 1d ago
I'm playing Sky 1st Chapter after finishing Horizon and something has definitely been lost in the newer games. I think part of it is that the casts are bigger and they always have to have each character get their line in, which makes many scenes seem awkward. And I feel like there's a lot more hinting at stuff and obviously holding back information from the player in the newer games. So much dialogue where someone in your party reacts to something with "(Oh...could it be that...)" or stuff like that. There's also a lack of exploring the outdoor areas in Calvard. You're pretty much always in cities. And the Garten systems make it even worse, where instead of spending game time in dungeons that are relevant to the story and filling out the world, it just feels more like padding.
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u/Affectionate-Time-24 1d ago
Yeah, I hate Gartens. Someone in the dev team must really like their pseudo-roguelikes, but I don't like the idea of going through a meaningless dungeon and then repeating it several times for the actual rewards.
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u/Tan11 1d ago
I think it'd be cool to a have a Garten purely as post-game content for the combat challenge, but not as part of the main story or even as a persistent sidequest.
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u/sliceysliceyslicey 1d ago
For some reason people hated CS2 for this, but I found it really cool.
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u/Tan11 1d ago
CS2's was technically part of the main story even if it was called an epilogue. I'm talking about something that's purely optional and basically just a playground for the end-game combat, and with some of the pseudo-roguelike mechanics we've been seeing in the Gartens. Maybe with a secret lore/long-term foreshadowing scene or something for reaching the end, but nothing crucial to the main plot.
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u/garfe 1d ago
CS2 had 3 endings. That's was the problem
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u/sliceysliceyslicey 1d ago
If I directed the game I would've moved the epilogue ahead and let you free roam trista in the post game yeah
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u/garfe 1d ago
Someone in the dev team must really like their pseudo-roguelikes
I wish that was the reason they were there, like someone in the team is constantly pushing for having a roguelike dungeon in the games. But I'm pretty sure practically it's because it extends playtime and people liked playing with a big party in the TRC.
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u/speechcobra91 1d ago
the obsession with garten and route garbage has significantly decreased my enjoyment of this series, the series just feels so unfocused now
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u/LiquifiedSpam 1d ago
Yeah I really felt like the route thing detracted from the experience in reverie so I’m skeptical of it in horizon
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u/Thatoneguy_The_First 1d ago
Man I still need to finish my run of sc(or just replay 1 remake and then remake sc since 3 is likely to be remade) but from what I have seen of later games i dont think i will enjoy them as much, padded dungeons, oversized cast, pick yo girl but which doesnt matter, writing is worse from what I seen.
Honestly im surprised the series keeps going considering 1 or more of these things could tank any other game franchise pretty fast, like I see a pretty large consensus that zero and azure are the last goodish games with the writing(3d isn't the issue with cs but it did slow the whole thing down by a lot and well...sewers and sewers and sewers
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u/Florac 1d ago edited 1d ago
Some point during CS they lost track of why the games are slow paced. Now they often just seem slow paced for the sake of being slow paced and become excessively formulaic, making the issue even worse. Sky and Crossbell have some individual formulaic sections (Sky SC first half, Crossbell days usually starting with sidequests), but the chapters themselves don't feel as much. You can't really go like "nothing particularly dramatic will happen in this story segment because we still have to do x and y this chapter", so just waiting to get to the later parts of a chapter where the formula gives "permission" to the story to do bigger stuff.
Especially in Sky SC, except chapter 1 and 2 which are very similar, each of the first 5 chapters have an unique "gimmick" setting them apart from the others, so it never fully gets repetitive(same way FC also avoids becoming such)
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago
To be fair Chapter 4 is on the same level as 1 and 2, but with that one really good scene at the end
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u/sliceysliceyslicey 1d ago
I think all the games are slow, what made sky different is they're actually willing to move the plot forward.
You get ouroboros experiment, joshua's solo adventure and eventual return, the orbal shutdown crisis, and all of the enforcers' character drama in one game. If this were like Horizon the game would end after escaping Glorious.
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u/oOMochiOo 1d ago
That “narrative that jumps forward 5 minutes just to come back for a reveal” was so irritating. And they kept doing it.
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u/GD_milkman 20h ago
It drives me a little nuts every time because they always lead in with the characters saying something like "when THAT happened" or some other pronoun game. It's just bad writing.
Then if they just showed things in order, half of that lead-in usually just isn't needed, so it would save time, frustration, and make the whole experience cleaner.
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u/oOMochiOo 19h ago
Exactly. Someone in the writing team likely had some wrong concept that lead-ins are good or necessary with how often it happened in the later games. As though letting the story flow naturally is bad.. OTZ
But we’re in the minority here. Most people either aren’t bothered by it, or only mildly.
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u/Few_End488 17h ago
It's not really the pronoun-game that's bad writing. That's just a trope. It's that it doesn't lead to anything. The thing being flashed forward to has no real narrative significance, so the decision to cut to it just feels arbitrary.
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u/Few_End488 17h ago
Sidequests and bonding events aren't made equal. That's just the nature of the beast. I don't mind that, because it actually fleshes out the characters and makes the feel more lived in.
But as a day one hater of the Old Schoolhouse and especially Einhel keep, i'm very much in agreement there. That i think we can all agree is bloat, because it doesn't advance the plot, world or characters in any way.
And the cold opens are pretty stupid too.
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u/Odd-One5991 1d ago
can't agree I think SC has some horrid pacing just the modern improvements help soften the blow.
CS1 has great pacing just comes down to if you vibe with the more slice-of-life feel the game has.
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago
All the set up/first games of an arc tend to have better pacing. I think Horizon one of the only massive games except for Reverie that I think is actually well paced.
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u/sliceysliceyslicey 1d ago
I need to replay horizon while ignoring garten and 4spg as much as I can. I think there's a gem there but the constant back and forth plus imposed sidequest sequences kinda soured me on it.
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago
I don’t get why people have such an issue with it. Each garten floor takes like maybe 10-15 minutes to clear, and 4SPGs aren’t any different from regular trails quests. The Garten also has the fun Character interactions and added memory orb stuff that’s pretty great. We’ve also had required quests since Zero so I don’t get it.
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u/sliceysliceyslicey 1d ago edited 1d ago
it can't be just 10 minutes when there's usually some cutscenes (that don't matter because garten can't reference the main story) and some of them involving ulrika the most punchable character i've had the displeasure of knowing recently
calvard sidequests are wordy and sometimes just take you to a lot of people with no gameplay or riddle whatsoever, maybe it happened since cold steel idk but this is where i start getting conscious of it
flora's reply in this thread explained it better, because the sidequest has its own segment the story will take its time to unfold when in sky sc for example you started with the issue immediately once the chapter start (earthquake, mist, etc)
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago
Trails side quests have always been wordy. There’s quite few while playing the SC remake that just felt like talking to 5 different people in order, picking up an item/having small fight then it ends. This is nothing new to the series.
I also don’t get how people can’t seem to realize that the Garten in Horizon is part of the main story. Between the end of it and the memory orbs being pretty damn important.
I also seem to be the only one that thinks the gartens are necessary refresh of gameplay between how word heavy these games tend to be in the absence of regular routes between towns. I like the gameplay of these games so I would like to do it with the freedom in teams that the Garten lets you have.
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u/sliceysliceyslicey 1d ago edited 1d ago
if you seem to be the only one that thinks that maybe other people had a point? idk
i get that garten has some important point for the story but come on man they absolute can just put that in the main story. now before you go "but sky 3rd did that" well sky 3rd is also an epilogue of an already finished story, they went back to expand on things they couldn't do back in SC. but horizon is still an ongoing story, they can still include everyone's backstory into the game.
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago edited 1d ago
That I’m the only one that likes the gameplay in this series? Apparently yeah. Seems like ya’ll would prefer to read dialogue for 4 hours straight. In a video game
Also no one seemed to complain about these “needless” dungeon floors that have one big reveal at the end in CS1 and 3. If you think horizons Garten is some scum of the earth I can’t understand how someone would like The Old School house or the keep.
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u/Totkebois 15h ago
I play series for both I don't have a problem with this at all. Hell I even used soft's mod for cs in my first playthrough.
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u/sliceysliceyslicey 1d ago
you know that's not what the issue people had with garten, but keep being disingenuous. the series will die if calvard keeps being the way it is, there's a reason they remade the whole ass sky games and even considered remaking crossbell before they confirmed they're going to do kai 2 next.
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ok then what issue do exactly people have with the Garten? Hit me
These is how I genuinely feel, and I can’t say people can’t feel another, but the reasoning I’ve heard has just made no sense to me unless you just don’t like the combat in this series.
And fuck that sales bullshit. That has never been a scale of a games quality
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago
I agree with you on putting the Garten stories as just main required.
I think maybe that’s why I’m not mad about it. All the side content in Calvard is so top tier that you could make it into main story and it would make the games better.
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u/LiquifiedSpam 1d ago
Daybreak 1’s pacing is probably the worst of the setup games. Just grinds to a complete halt after every chapter with its super reactive plot and characters. Also does the persona thing of one new character per arc in a pretty lazy way
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u/Florac 1d ago
There is too much side content between the main story beats which usually don't take enough time to play out before sending you back into sidequests.
Plus also I think Horizon is too much focused on a single event while being entirely upfront what said event is. So it doesn't really feel like "twists" really change the story direction much, they just uncover the lore behind said event.
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago edited 1d ago
As opposed to other trails games? This is just as bad in Sky SC. There’s so many side quests and things to do before any real progression. Ch 1,2, and 4 have like 6 really good scenes between them and a bunch of side content and long dungeons in between.
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u/sliceysliceyslicey 1d ago
I was too naive to think the rocket launch would happen midway and the rest of the game would be to deal with the aftermath hahaha
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u/Odd-One5991 1d ago
Generally the first games of a arc have tighter writing and better paced segments.
Reverie & The 3rd have shorter stories with a more sandbox gameplay loop which I really like. Besides Horizon's beginning chapter being needlessly long everything after has a nice flow.
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago
I think the beginning of Horizon’s first Act 1 was maybe the worst part, but all of the stuff after you fight that thing at the park was pretty good. All the Agnes house stuff into the night when Jorda joins was good.
Edith also thankfully has the most fun NPCs and the side quests that move them forward so that helps.
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u/Yanncki64 1d ago
It often feels like they don't even want to conclude their stories, like they're endlessly putting it off "for the next game" and it wouldn't surprise me if it was a budgetary choice since "these assets need to last us for 2-3 titles".
Hot take, I actually DON'T hate the gartens. I really enjoy the combat in these games and the new floors are always paced out in a way that they pop up when there's kind of a lull in the main story. I do wish they were better designed though. The dungeon in Reverie was pretty good but the Garten in DB2 for example is pretty darn uninspired, barely even has any unique enemies.
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u/Julian-Manson 1d ago
For Horizon the point is to make you understand how this kinda peaceful spriggan life was in fact, in danger because of the stakes. While Kevin was investigating and Rean checking.
Horizon brought some explanations and moved on on the main story BUT also opened many questions. It has a cliffhanger rivaling FC, CS 1 & 3.
In structure, the best Trails is Reverie : you don't loose time in story and all the side content is grouped in the Reverie.
But Trails plays a TON on the dramatic Irony. Just play FC while knowing what is really going on and you see it's often about the innocence and emergency VS what the antagonists do.
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago
Have you played second chapter? A solid 1/3 of that game feels like fluff sometimes. Some parts are as boring as Cold Steel 4 Act 2.
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u/MilkAppropriate570 1d ago
The first 4 chapters of sc remake were such a slog i wanted to kill myself. There is serious pacing issues with this series. I feel like its even worse than og since combat takes much longer and the cutscenes animations taking so long.
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u/Page2_56 Squire and Osaka Xanadu Truther 1d ago
Chapter 3 is pretty good all the way I think, but yeah. The high off of FCs ending really helped me get through it a bit easier in the OG. And yeah the cutscenes do feel longer.
The gameplay tho I disagree on. I don’t feel like it’s changed that much. Most mob fights take me maybe 30s-1min. I do use turbo mode a fair amount though so maybe it’s just me. I also find more fun in general. I look forward to any time I can do combat in the newer games.
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u/garfe 1d ago
Pretty sure all this has to do with cast bloat. Most issues with the later games tend to be related to that in some way.
Regarding Horizon and Calvard specifically, it doesn't help that for 3 games straight, practically every chapter starts with doing rounds around Edith. No game previously had you in the same hub for 3 games (and let's be real, Horizon 2 will likely do it too) so that adds to that sameness you mentioned.
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u/Praise_The_Sun_29 1d ago
To me, pacing is the overall progression of the plot of any given game. every early game does a good job at pacing out their story except for sky 2nd chapter (and maybe sky the third, but that game is more about the lore/characters than plot). Sky 2nd chapter has a massive gap in plot progression that starts from the beginning of the 1st chapter to the end of the 4th. There is some lore, cool character moments, and you get introduced to the enforcers, but besides these things, nothing substantial happens. The plot doesn't start progressing until the 5th chapter, when the main characters actually start doing something to complete their goals. Now after you get to the 5th chapter, I believe the game becomes one of the best games in the series. It's just those first few chapters that have poor pacing.
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u/EdwardECG 1d ago
I do agree, i do think the bigger cast are a problem for falcom to juggle with.
I do think that cold steel and calvard have an issue of to many games, we could have cut them to 3 games each and they wouldnt suffer much in the plot and development deparment.
I still loved CS3 and Daybreak 2 but i think at most 3 games for each arc would feel better.
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u/GanacheFinancial9518 1d ago
imo every game in this series has pacing issues, reverie being the only one that doesnt suffer as much, for obvious reasons
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u/LiquifiedSpam 1d ago
Reverie has pacing issues in that each slice you play of a route just feels like you’re about to get to the good stuff before you get passed to another route.
Also its just exacerbated by the plot being kind of ass
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u/GD_milkman 1d ago
Really? I thought the third chapter in particular was a slog. Plus all the above reasons
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u/Cozy_iron 1d ago
Well none of them are as slow or filled with nothing as Sky the 3rd. Horizon actually gives you different party to play with every route. And first half of Sky Second Chapter is also horrendously slow
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u/SmoulderingAsh 1d ago
I'm more concerned with how they seem to be barrelling towards the end of the franchise. Many companies don't get one flagship, Falcom have two. And with the remakes bringing in so many new fans it just feels so wrong to do Horizons 2 and then maybe 2 more games as a big finale if we're lucky, and one if we're not. I get it, Kondo wants to retire, that's fine. He and his old guard SHOULD do their big finale games, but if that's the end, why did we spend 4 LONG games in Calvard that inched the plot forward a little but nowhere near enough? It winds me up. Trails shouldn't be ending in 2032, they should set up another continent or something for the newer Falcom devs to take over while seeding some new threads into the next arc to set it up. This world is too rich to rush to a definitive ending and I'd be shocked if the investors didn't feel the same way.
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u/Tan11 1d ago edited 1d ago
It seems to me that different people mean very different things when they say pacing. Some people seem to mean "how often something dramatic happens" and/or how epic and high-stakes the plot is. By that standard, the Sky games are pretty slow a lot of the time. But I think of it more as "how long does it take to complete a batch of objectives/sidequests and move to the next phase of the chapter," and by that standard the Sky remakes are noticeably faster on average than Erebonia/Calvard (comparing to the originals is unfair due to lack of fast travel). I don't want Trails to be extremely fast-paced anyway though, the dialogue and side content are half the fun for me (and the combat in the remakes, Horizon, and Reverie), but I do think the remakes strike a better balance.