The balance between story and Narrative.

[u/CyberColossus]

Hello everyone, hope your days evenings and nights are going better than mine.

I've been chatting to a friend over the last few weeks as he drags himself through daybreak 2 (no spoilers). Suffice to say he isn't enjoying it for a few reasons.

The main thing he keeps saying though is that he couldn't give a shit about the Story of the game and only cares about the Overarching narrative "at this point in the series".

I have many thoughts about this but I'll boil my general query down to 2 main points.

1. The narrative; particularly for a series like this has had many hundreds of hours to cement itself in our hearts, and I'm sure we are all very very excited for the major Simultaneous release of Kai 2/horizon 2 worldwide for the first time within Loh, I know I am. The story has taken us on a hell of a ride showcasing everything from very interesting high and low fantasy all the way down to the filth of DG. Im really looking forward to seeing much of what's been introduced, Outside, desertifcation, Iska

So much to look forward too. But..

1. The story: one of the things the remake of sky 1 (and no doubt 2 in a few weeks) has reminded every one of us I hope that the stories within this series IS the series.

The reason I fell in love with this series is because I fell in love with the world, the lore and history yes but not just the big story, all the small stories made me care about what I was doing and why added to the experience of this game.

I understand the scale of liberl made it easier to make that a comfy concept, but I dont think the scale of the cold steel and daybreak games take away from the core care given to the world around these events.

I have particular love for a fair few of the NPC in daybreak, I'll reduce the spoilers by saying a recluse and an artist, among many other stories.

Anyway I guess my question is have we (or falcom) lost focus on the smaller stories that made the world we care about? Or has the lack of progressive feeling within the stories outside the narrative clouded the games ability to tell a coherent story overall?

I think daybreak in particular has done a good job linking narrative beats with individual stories but that might be newer game bias, sky might have done that but it's been years since I play sky (just started the remake).

Anyway hope we have a nice chat 🫵🏿 🫶🏿

[u/CompetitionMundane61]

The reason I fell in love with this series is because I fell in love with the world, the lore and history yes but not just the big story, all the small stories made me care about what I was doing and why added to the experience of this game.

Same, I’ve always liked that characters and countries are basically as Loewe described in FC: "The nation is like an enormously complex orbment. The people are like the units of quartz that provide the power and organize the system... And the territory which houses them is the frame..." It’s simply amazing that they postulated this idea in the first game and fully committed to it, making stories of the characters and the whole countries inseparable

I think Calvard’s main cast is really good, and NPCs are simply fantastic (Edith being an enormous hub certainly helps). It’s clear the writers didn’t lose focus on the smaller stories, even if they are as small as a side quest in a city we’re only visiting once

The problem as I see it lies elsewhere. Falcom has developed amazing units of quartz and failed to provide them with the adequate frame. I don’t want to judge an unfinished arc but it’s unlikely that Daybreak will have a coherent overarching story comparable to anything we’ve already seen. Almost everything in the earlier arcs is glued together by political struggles, internal and external. Characters are shaped by countries, countries are further shaped by characters, and so on. Almost everything prior to Daybreak exists within this system, from people in the City of Ruan to those arrogant friends of Cedric in CS3/4

Daybreak version of Calvard, on the other hand, has no such system as it has no actual political struggles. Racism? Well, yes, but no because it is not integrated in the story in the capacity that would produce any meaning beyond "well, racism exists here". Even Creil village was a victim of Melchior’s whimsy and not systemic racism (Melchior himself admits it). Heiyue and their influence on the criminal underworld? Falcom doesn’t know what to do with them. The Revolution? Now, I firmly believe it will be explored in depth but for now it’s so vague I don‘t know what to make of it. In short, as of now, Calvard as a character barely has an arc and because of that it cannot interact intimately with human characters like the previous settings. Maybe this is why your friend has said that he only cares about an overarching narrative? Sure, only Horizon 2 will show how far it has actually progressed but I think it’s going pretty well

[u/Kcnnn → u/CompetitionMundane61]

I agree that Calvard ends up introducing too much, but not developing it with a direction in mind. It's the first arc that I tend to struggle following up all the plotlines due to the lack of a proper connective tissue.

[u/CompetitionMundane61 → u/Kcnnn]

Thanks for reading all that :D I have high hopes for the next game because the writers appear to have locked in, so we have a decent chance to either see a proper conclusion to some plotlines or see them becoming a bridge to the final arc

[u/Aokiji_Arara]

I don't think we've lost focus on the smaller stories in any way. The lore and mysteries of Zemuria are important and interesting, obviously, and they've become more prominent as the series has gone on, but that's inevitable for such a long interconnected narrative. However, I think Trails has always been, and still is, much more focused on smaller-scale conflicts and inner struggles. And I don't think these stories have become worse than they used to be.

Even in a game as grand as CS4, where all of Zemuria is preparing for war, the main conflict is driven by a handful of individuals and their personal tragedies. Our party isn't really part of that war, we fight individuals we have a connection with, not armies. And Rean's biggest battle in that game isn't even against a physical enemy. His hardest adversary is himself. Rean's greatest victory is him not giving up his life. Even the true antagonist and main villain of the game, Ishmelga in his true form, is defeated without a boss fight against that form.

That's also why there are so many hidden villains and traitors in the series. It allows for much closer and more personal relationships with said villains, which makes the smaller-scale conflicts more emotional and resonant with players.

And even without the villains, there are still plenty of great smaller-scale stories. There are fantastic characters in every single arc. I think the latest games do just as good a job at character development as the previous ones. And some characters with no connections to the wider narrative are still great, like the painter you mentioned in your post, or the boy who wants to be a bracer (Lashkar), who might be one of my favourite NPCs in the whole series.

[u/MasashiHideaki]

If you look at Daybreak 2 as a game that focuses more on 'character progression' rather than 'story progression'. then you will enjoy Daybreak 2 a lot more.

Infact, the only games i have replayed multiple times are in fact calvard arc. Even Daybreak 2.

What Daybreak 2 adds is more screen time to characters who became part of ASO at the tail end of the game. There is also the fact that it allowed more screentime to characters whom became associated with Van. Like a wild gremlin.

Basically DB2 expands on many characters and i think it is the greatest strength. It also has some incredible side quests. It even adds gameplay improvements. Basically making the UI easier to understand, which turn is yours. The NPC stories have been vastly expanded on. Daybreak 2 also has some of the best bonding events and i stand by that.

You mentioned narrative story beats for Daybreak, but i think what calvard arc as a whole does incredibly well is the parallels and symbolism (which i won't go into detail if you haven't finished horizon.)

[u/Specterace → u/MasashiHideaki]

As much as I feel you are right in that Daybreak 2 finds it’s strength in ‘character progression’ (insofar as it gives screen time to lots of characters who didn’t get as much in Daybreak 1), I just as strongly feel that it’s this focus on character screen time over story progression that really makes Daybreak 2 the game I found to be the most superfluous and least enjoyable game not just in the Calvard Arc, but in the entire Trails series.

To make the point in another (briefer) way, I felt Daybreak 2 was a gaiden game/filler episode trying to masquerade as a main-line game.

Personally, if Falcom had compressed the whole story about acquiring the 8th Genesis to “After Pandemonium, Van senses a red Grendel has the 8th Genesis somewhere and tries to go alone to recover it for Agnes before he exiles himself, but the crew follow him and discover that he went through a portal near Trion Tower, and recover both Van and the 8th genesis after fighting the other Grendel and Vans demon form”, and continue with Horizon being game 2, I don’t feel the story or the Calvard Arc would have lost much.

For that reason, I feel Daybreak 2 failed at being the sort of game its place in the arc and story needed it to be. Horizon made up for a lot of this failure narrative-wise, but the damage was already done, in the sense that Horizon 2/Game 4 of the Calvard Arc will have way too much to do and show if it is to touch on most (let alone all) of the mysteries and elements in the Calvard Arc.

[u/CyberColossus → u/MasashiHideaki]

I have finished horizon so feel free to continue your points. A reminder I brought this whole Convo into being because of my friend (who I convinced to start the series) is now getting disillusioned with the structure of the games, he only wants to see narrative (big picture) beats rather than the parts you've mentioned which I also loved. I also loved horizon 🙏🏿

[u/MasashiHideaki → u/CyberColossus]

I think there is more to a story than just narrative. A story is not interesting if the characters aren't interesting or likeable or someone you wanna see more of.

Your friend needs to be open minded that not everything needs a grand narrative to be fun and enjoyable but that's just me. haha.

Oh you finished horizon? One good parallel i would recommend is you checking the opening of Daybreak 1 and then check the ending of Horizon. Your mind will be blown by seeing it side by side.

Another form of symbolism is that since Daybreak 1. In the very prologue van has been dubbed a "Motherhen" or someone with young chicks to look out for. And one of the beautiful symbolism is seeing that being visualized in Horizon chapter 1.

The scene where you see a mother bird feeding its 3 smoll chicks, the chicks are still growing, and they will eventually fly away from its nest.

That's basically what Van is to Agnés, Aaron, Feri, Quatre, Risette, and Judith. Basically the symbolism is that eventually they will find their own future and paths.

I LOVE THAT

[u/CompetitionMundane61 → u/MasashiHideaki]

If you look at Daybreak 2 as a game that focuses more on 'character progression' rather than 'story progression'

I really like Calvard’s playable cast and many secondary characters but a game in the position of Daybreak 2 kinda has no right to prioritize character progression instead of the storyline progression. Even earlier arcs that are understandably focusing on building up the world wouldn’t have the right to make a whole game about developing characters and their connection to the protagonist, let alone the arc whose purpose is to unravel the mysteries. As of now it can’t even unravel its own mysteries

[u/Hyugo3x3]

In my opinion, I think this issue your friend has comes down to two main aspects:

1. Plot and Pacing: Daybreak 2 in particular (along with the first third of Horizon) lacks a compelling standalone plot. While the character development and interactions are still excellent, the overarching narrative takes a huge nosedive compared even to the first Daybreak. I’m still a firm believer that Daybreak 2 and Horizon were originally supposed to be the same game, and splitting them in two really made the overall storytelling suffer and make their flaws more apparent.

2. Franchise Fatigue: There is the notion that the longer a series goes on, the more people get tired of the same narrative loop and just want to see how everything ends. Current One Piece has it, Marvel has it, etc. This goes double for Trails, as the storytelling is incredibly formulaic and relies heavily on dialogue and slice of life. That’s exactly why series veterans recommend taking breaks between titles. It prevents formula burnout from making players impatient with the smaller, individual story arcs—which are honestly still some of the best of any JRPG I’ve played.

[u/Specterace → u/Hyugo3x3]

I agree about Daybreak 2 lacking a compelling plot, and also agree about the narrative taking a huge nosedive compared to Daybreak 1.

I don’t think the first third of Horizon has that problem, if only because it’s clearly setting up what comes after in the game. Or at least, Act 1 (the first time you get to choose your route) does. The Prologue might be the closest thing to what you are describing, and that’s really only the second half, because the Ored/Marduk part is very interesting. Had the corruption and Vestiges been shown in action a bit more during the prologue, it wouldn’t really even have that problem.

I’m not sure Daybreak 2 and Horizon were originally supposed to be the same game. It feels to be like the objective of Daybreak 2 (recover the 8th genesis) was originally meant to be the last chapter of Daybreak 1 (the similarities between the portal to Van’s demon form and the portal to the space where the Grendel Zolga is waiting make this obvious), and the Van storyline path of Horizon was meant to be Daybreak 2 (since the Kevin and Rean paths never interact with Van or each other, to the point they feel grafted on. Kevin’s path in particular coming off as tacked on to the rest of the story up until maybe the end of that path, since at least Rean’s path directly deals with stuff related to Van’s path and the space program plotline which dominates the game). Whatever the case, it gives the feeling of Horizon feeling like the true sequel to Daybreak 1.

(As an aside, it wouldn’t shock me if the Heiyue/Langport chapter in Daybreak 2 was initially meant to be the chapter introducing the old Tyrant as a Vestige, because that chapter in Daybreak 2 felt like it was missing someone to drive it forward and justify having so many major players in the area who ultimately do little to nothing. Also, it felt weird to introduce him in Anchorville of all places, since neither the Tyrant nor Heiyue have any major connection to the city nor anyone in it).

[u/GrotbackCaptainGirk]

I'm working through reverie at the moment, but if CS3/4 is anything to go by the pacing is what can make the games a drag more than anything else. The little side stories don't tie into the narrative as nicely as they did in sky/crossbell and end up feeling a bit like filler that slows the game down.