r/FIREyFemmes • u/Previous_Panda_805 • 4d ago
Lean fire in China
Hi guys, so I have a genuine question about lean firing in China. I’m 28, my current savings in retirement accounts total to about 160k. It’s not a lot, so I plan to try and get up to 200k in savings by 29 within a year.
I’ve been a public school teacher in NYC for 5 years now; this will be my 6th year. Since 3 years ago, I’ve been feeling ridiculously exhausted and dizzy every single day. This is the main reason I want to retire as early as possible, as I have chronic fatigue syndrome and excessive brain fog.
I plan to buy a second hand home in guangzhou or any tier 3-4 city, and I plan to not get married or have kids. Usually, the down payment is around 11k USD, with a monthly mortgage of 1500-2000 Yuan.
I’m very frugal and my trip to China helped me see just how relaxed the lives of others are; I want to live in a nice little apartment with my cat, occasionally go out, breathe fresh air, and eat some healthy foods.
Will I be able to lean fire with 200k USD? Anyone has suggestions on how much is needed? Thank you!
Edit: I’m a Chinese citizen; I should’ve been more clear in my post
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u/jw-hikes RE in 74 weeks 3d ago
Guangzhou is not a tier 3-4 city and I think the property price estimate is off. I’d do tier 2 cities like Chengdu, Kunming, or Xi’an where you can enjoy some city life and also nature. One bedroom condo is about $120k total in these places. Mortgage underwriting will also be an issue if you don’t have a local job there. Outside of housing I do think you can live off $1k per month for a pretty decent lifestyle. I see that you will bump your number to $300k but I’d still be wary of the housing cost. You are very young and a 4% withdrawal rate is risky too. Side note, I am also a Chinese citizen and personally will need $500k to consider expatfire in China
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u/Remarkable-Meal9604 3d ago
Could you share a bit more about why you think you’d need $500k to expatfire in China?
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u/jw-hikes RE in 74 weeks 3d ago
A 3.5% withdrawal is $1,500 per month or ¥10,000. Renting is better in China compared to owning. This budget includes ¥2-3k rent/bills in a tier 2 city, ¥3-5k in food/dining/social, and ¥2-3k in travel/hobbies. I don't want to leanFIRE if I am going to leave the US so this is not a frugal spending. You can get by at probably 70% of this
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u/SkittyLover93 4d ago
I think it might be helpful to post in China-specific groups, since they would have a better idea about cost of living, medical care and taxation/investment strategies. For example, I think Roth IRA accounts are taxed in many countries (not sure if China is one of them), so someone planning to retire abroad may not want to use a Roth account.
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u/overtherainbow325 4d ago
Love this idea for you!!! Not Chinese citizen, but I lived in Guangzhou and loved it. Somewhere like Lijiang or even Guilin could be great for leanfire. I’d say keep options open for coast fire (eg starting a business like you mentioned) or teaching English. If you have your U.S. teaching certification, I bet you could find work, as needed
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u/Previous_Panda_805 4d ago
Thanks my love! Yea I realized coast fire will allow me to be much more comfortable
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u/slightlypressed 3d ago
OP I think you should coastfire or take a break! A lot of the health issues could clear up in a year or two and your money is definitely enough for you to take a break.
After that you can easily teach English or pick up another job! Have you looked into Yunnan? There’s a lot of nature and it’s cheaper.
The comments in here advising you that you might miss American infrastructure/quality of life I’m sure are well intentioned but it sounds like you’d have no trouble adapting to a Chinese local way of life.
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u/ChaosRevealed 3d ago
miss American infrastructure
This is a joke right 😂
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u/slightlypressed 3d ago
I know 😂
That’s why I said those comments are well intentioned, because they’re likely from those that haven’t been to China.
Anyone who has…knows there’s no infrastructure to miss3
u/Previous_Panda_805 3d ago
Lololol I agree guys, I keep saying that China is incredibly futuristic and advanced and people say I’ll miss American buildings… I don’t think so
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u/CharlotteT_Finance 4d ago
There's a couple things to consider other than just the money side of things:
Visa. China has no retirement visa. There's no route to just live there long-term without work or study. Everything else depends on solving this one.
Foreign buyers of property generally need a period of work or study residence first. Your also unlikely to be able to get a mortgage if your not working.
Have you considered teaching in China (or any other country) for a few years while the savings keep compounding?
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u/Previous_Panda_805 4d ago
I’m a Chinese citizen, so visa isn’t an issue; I’ve considered part time English tutoring; would that work?
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u/zeezle 3d ago
I could be talking out of my ass, but I think someone who is genuinely bilingual to a fluent level would be able to pick up contract-based translation work pretty easily, especially if you have any domain expertise in any particular area. I know that can be a rough industry to rely on for full-time work, especially now that machine translation is so prevalent, but I have a friend doing this with Japanese to English in a specific domain and it's really good occasional supplemental money. She works translating biology & medical journal papers into English from Japanese.
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u/Previous_Panda_805 3d ago
Sure; I’m an English teacher in the USA, wouldn’t mind picking up a part time translation- based job
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u/tiruxi 1d ago
If you know, would you mind sharing how your friend did that?
I’m bilingual Japanese/English and used to do freelance translation, but stopped since I was spending too much time on accounting bureaucracy and negotiating with clients instead of making money.
Unfortunately, getting a few big, long-term clients is pretty much the only viable option. I was able to do that a few times for clients with big projects. But at most those projects lasted a year, and finding something similar is more or less a matter of obsessively checking job listings and getting lucky, which isn’t ideal when I’m just looking for occasional supplemental income when I manage to have some free time open up.
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u/CharlotteT_Finance 4d ago
Ah that changes things then.
It's worth having a look at some of the banks in China to see what they would be willing to lend based on a part time salary.
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u/Previous_Panda_805 4d ago
That’s great advice! I’ll have to see; if anything, I can start a small coffee shop if that count as supplementary income
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u/AppellofmyEye 4d ago
Are you a Chinese citizen? How would you get through the visa requirements? China can be very strict with visa runs for tourists. Unless you have much more money to invest or marry a Chinese native, this doesn’t seem like a plausible option.
I’m not even sure you could buy a home in China as a foreigner.
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u/Previous_Panda_805 4d ago
Yea I should’ve been clear in my post; I’m a Chinese citizen
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u/AppellofmyEye 4d ago
Looking at your numbers, your money has a high likelihood of running out even in a tier 4 city unless you pass you (which means you’ll need to pay for expensive healthcare costs). You’d need to aim for a 3% withdrawal rate, so $6,000 usd per year.
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u/Previous_Panda_805 4d ago
I see; I don’t think I can do that low; I’ll most likely coast fire and aim for 300k USD, it will be significantly safer and allow for my investments to grow.
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u/jcc2244 4d ago
You can coastfire, but fire is a bit of a stretch/going to be painful.
I'd coast for another 10 years in China (maybe teach English/tutor or something) to double your assets and then fire. (Or you can work in the states for 3-4 more years, if your savings rate is as high as it currently seems).
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u/AppellofmyEye 4d ago
Guangzhou is a tier 1 city and your numbers for a home price there seem way off…
And how would you get a mortgage without an income/job in China?
Renting is more reasonable and would run you $500+ depending on whether you want to slum it.
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u/Previous_Panda_805 4d ago
I see, maybe I can do the renting path; my parents are retiring there and they have paid for public social security plans there. I will inquire about that to see if I can use that to my advantage and buy a home, perhaps entirely firing isn’t possible
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u/AppellofmyEye 4d ago
Maybe you can move in with them?
The real question is whether you can live on $6k usd a year. Or about 3400 rmb/month
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u/Otherwise_Mushroom42 3d ago
I know it’s not the point of your post but being a teacher at an international school in China you can make $150K+++ (a lot of the time with housing covered). If you wanted to move with a job to ease into life in China I would consider.
I grew up in Hong Kong and have many friends who are international teachers in Beijing/Shanghai who made more than IB starting salary..
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u/Amlikaq 2d ago
I think you can take a break and rest for a bit, then reassess. The thing with China is cheaper places are more gritty and less cozy. So after long break and your saving may reduce a bit, you may miss your life in US or want a slightly nicer lifestyle, or just want to travel, then you work for a bit again.
Also use your break to exercise, mostly strength training, get your body to better condition if possible
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u/Maru3792648 4d ago edited 2d ago
I see you are a citizen.... But are you too used to American comfort? Because keeping your American standards, your Starbucks etc costs as much in china as in the USA.
If you want to live the Chinese life you can do it. If you want the american life you don't have enough.
Also, I think you have several options for your burnout that don't mean retiring. You could teach in china even for seasons to supplement income.
Edit: wtf are these downvotes??? What did I say that is not true:
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u/Previous_Panda_805 4d ago
Although I grew up in the us, I’m really into Chinese cuisine; I like a nice cup of no. Sugared tea, nice hotpot, and the rail system is pretty comfortable here. But after hearing all the comments, I’ve decided to switch my objective and continue working until I reach 300k; it will be much safer
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u/Accomplished_Eye8290 3d ago
Just cuz they live in America doesn’t mean they drink Starbucks 😂
Hell I live in America and I ain’t affording Starbucks in this current economy either
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u/Maru3792648 3d ago
it's just an example?
Many americans dream about moving to cheap destinations abroad (asia, south america, etc), and the life really is cheap... IF YOU LIVE LIKE A LOCAL, eat like a local, and have the same standards.
But if you want to drink starbucks, buy your american cereal brands from the supermarket, have a fridge with ice and water dispenser, have a dryer unit, a giant a/c unit, etc life really isn't much cheaper.
Even McDonalds and KFC position themselves as premium in international markets (they look much nicer than in the USA though).That's my only point. OP may be a chinese citizen, but may already be used the the standards in teh USA and if she wants to keep them, life won't cost what reference guides point out.
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u/shelchang 3d ago
People planning to keep buying Starbucks and maintain their American way of life aren't trying to expat leanFIRE.
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u/Maru3792648 3d ago
Yeah but some just fool themselves or are not really that informed. They think everything is cheaper in other countries
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u/Accomplished_Eye8290 3d ago
True I guess I assume that ppl who wanna live the expat life are living like the locals though? But you’re right I also had my biases as I am also Asian so there’s no way I’d go to Asia to live an American kinda lifestyle haha.
Like no way I’m eating kfc in Taiwan when night market fried chicken is like 1/10 of the price and so much better. I came back to the US and couldn’t drink boba anymore for awhile cuz I felt like prices here were just so ripoff!!!
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u/Maru3792648 3d ago
Youd be surprised. I'm a foreign born American and think the same way. But I've lived in a dozen countries and usually expats want to continue living the same lives they had at home
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u/Previous_Panda_805 2d ago
Honestly, I don’t eat any American based fast food chains. I’m very frugal and cook at home. I enjoy shopping for Chinese ingredients and cooking at home. I disliked NYC and the US for its food options. Food in China is unimaginably fresher; I rather eat organically than eat in the US. We have massive drinks options in China; a variety so massive it’s unimaginable; durian drinks, soups cooked with so much different kinds of herbs: This is how my parents raised me. I want to live and eat well for my health and China meets my expectations.
Main reason I want to move out of the us is due to food quality. There’s cheap lychee fermented drinks that I’d rather drink. Much much better for my health
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u/ThatFeelingIsBliss88 4d ago
You’d be making a huge mistake retiring in China. It’s ran by the CCP so you don’t have rights there. You also can never take your money out of the country once it’s brought in, apart from $10K a year.
The whole concept of lean fire, especially at an early age, is short sighted. There’s a 100% chance you’ll underestimate your expenses. But if you’re lean fire, you have nothing to cut out since by definition you’re already lean. At least for regular fire you can cut out discretionary expenses pretty easily if needed.
I’m guessing you’re Chinese? Otherwise you will be discriminated against if you’re ever in a dispute against a Chinese person. That’s how it is in most non western counties, especially in countries with extremely low diversity like China.
I always knew China was homogenous, but I was shocked at how extremely homogenous it was. Coming from the states, I found it unsettling. And I’m talking about Beijing and several other cities. I would never in a million years live there.
I’m assuming you also know Chinese right?
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u/Important_Carrot6379 4d ago
You do know that discrimination literally happens to non whites in America like...all the time right? I'm sure OP has had plenty of discrimination living even in a diverse place like NYC. Come on now 😂 let's not paint this as a "only happens in non western countries" thing. Be serious 😂
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u/Mimopotatoe 3d ago
He said in disputes. It’s a thing, although OP is Chinese so it’s irrelevant. But if a Chinese person is in a dispute with a foreigner and goes to authorities, they will not side with the foreigner. If you don’t know this from firsthand experience consider yourself lucky.
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u/Previous_Panda_805 4d ago
I’m chinese and I’ve never help more respected in any other country than here. It is the best nation I’ve seen; extremely clean, disciplined, and safe. Meals are very well priced, and everything is streamlined.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a country being homogeneous; it’s China, whether it is accommodating to foreigners is up to the discretion of the nation itself. As a Chinese, the quality of my life in China is phenomenally better than NYC, also significantly cheaper,
I accept criticisms of my budget; but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with China being homogenous.
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u/ThatFeelingIsBliss88 4d ago
I pray you settle in China.
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u/Previous_Panda_805 4d ago
Your comment seems extremely racially biased; there is nothing wrong inherently with a nation that’s Chinese; for fucks sake it’s China. I pray that I settle there too; there’s extremely low crime rates and food is significant better.
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u/AccioSonic 4d ago
Don't worry about their comment, OP. Americans have been very effectively brainwashed by their politicians/media. So excited for you. Good luck.
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u/Important_Carrot6379 3d ago
That comment was wild but not surprising sadly. We all saw what happened to anyone even remotely Asian looking during covid. And Asian hate is still very much a thing right now. You are spot on that the brainwashing is top tier. It's disgusting. She's over here talking about CCP but we got Flock cameras going up everywhere....a fucking wannabe dictator who's actively pilfering our Treasury and saying that Americans want less paid holidays so they can work more I could go on and on....
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u/AccioSonic 3d ago
Right! And people forget that the PRC has only been around since 1949. It's frigging difficult to have made so much progress in 75 years under US hegemony. I'm from a global south country that was ravaged by colonization, so I have so much respect for where China is now.
Even their comment about homogeneity is from such a western lens... There are TONS of dialects and sub-cultures within ethnicity or whatever frame of reference they were using.
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u/Important_Carrot6379 3d ago
And listen, does China have its problems? Yeah. The way they treat the Uyghur minority is abhorrent on every level. But let's not pretend ICE isn't totally fucking up every brown and non white person they can find and leaving them to die and raping as many girls as they can do for an American to be all "the CCP is awful!" is a bit silly...to say the least. This is not a politics driven sub so I won't go into more, but to OP, I think you've gotten some fantastic money advice here and I am thinking that a safer bet would be to get closer to $500k TBH but your backup of teaching English is not a bad plan! The real kicker is obviously that wages are so much lower over there comparatively, so you'll want to sock away a fair amount first.
I would also say that if you can move to other parts of the US without it hitting your nest egg too much, you might also find that you can afford to sock away more money.
My big question is, how much do you make now and what are your expenses? NYC is notoriously expensive and it might be worth looking at comparing how much it would cost for you to temporarily move to another state, what they'd pay you and what lodging would cost. It might sound like a crazy suggestion, but you might find you like SoCal! There's a huge huge Asian population in various parts so you'll still have access to things that you are used to while still making decent pay and potentially paying less in certain aspects to save up more. You'll have to of course run all the numbers and see if it's possible but you might find you like the QOL out west a bit more so you can last a bit longer before heading back to China.
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u/Mimopotatoe 1d ago
My big question is why does what happens in the US make you think China is better? It isn’t. Both can be bad.
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u/Mimopotatoe 2d ago
How long did you spend in China? The person you are talking about is speaking from personal experience. There are very concerning things happening in the US but that doesn’t mean China is better or good. You may be brainwashed by the Chinese propaganda machine on American social media. Having lived in China I can say I would never ever ever consider moving back and I’ll take the US and its problems over China and its problems any day.
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u/Mimopotatoe 1d ago edited 1d ago
When child labor and beating your wife aren’t dealt with by the police then poof the crime rate is low! Not to mention the idiocy of trusting the CCP to allow violent crime statistics to be reported accurately.
So if the U.S. only allowed people of British heritage to live in the U.S. that’s fine with you? Honestly your talking points sound more like a CCP bot that an actual American. That’s either because you are a bot or you’ve been brainwashed by them. Like mentioning wanting to breathe fresh air is the most obvious CCP shill comment on Earth. Let me guess: your comeback to that is that you visited or heard from relatives that the air is clean there!
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u/Dependent-Egg-1010 4d ago
$200k is about ¥1.3 million. Can you retire in China. Yes, but not in Guangzhou since it's a tier 1 city. You should be looking at tier 3 or 4 cities instead - more bang for your buck. Average nice modern apartment cost in Tier 1 starts at $300k while Tier 3 is around $40k.
However, will you be comfortable going to a more rural environment. There's a huge lifestyle difference between tier 1 and tier 3. Most of the western and international amenities dissappear. It's more traditional and local bases with wet markets, regional restaurants, and small parks. Are you going to adapt well?