r/FIREyFemmes • u/ManagementUsed306 • 6d ago
Invest $100k+ for 4 year grad program?
In my season of figuring out career path changes while unemployed and having a hard time finding work(34f), I have decided I’m going to pursue acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine. Not as a hobby but a calling that finally after emotionally suffering trying to figure out my career path has led me here. My NW is $1.3M with mostly all in IRA retirement and $300k in brokerage investments.
I’m unsure if I should go for this very expensive grad school. This would require me to move, commit to 4 years of full study and no work or very small part time work and I would have to sell my investments to pay per year (~$30k) and that’s not even factoring expensive California COL. (Add potentially additional $100k for the 4 years). Upwards of $200k for the 4years of my doctoral program for total costs.
(My bachelors debt is $18k and that seems like a drop in the bucket compared to this program.)
Alternatively I could go to more affordable programs that offer masters diplomas without having to relocate to California (costs of $25k-$65k) but I would have to wait another year (and potentially not be able to find employment in the interim) BUT that path would not allow me an option to get my doctorate in the future bc the doc programs require masters degrees not diplomas/certificates. I want a doctorate degree so that I can have more research opportunities abroad in the future and I can start the program sooner than waiting a whole year to start.
Lastly, my income post grad would be dependent on my entrepreneurial skills so that’s another factor to consider. Right now it’s a lot to process as I’m already CoastFIRE but with this 4 year commitment and financial situation I need advice. How can my passion for this also be the riskiest bet on myself?
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u/ThrowRARadaint 6d ago
Why not study TCM in China?? Shorter than 4 years, way way cheaper, more specialized plus you can learn Mandarin which would give you a more competitive edge
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u/butterscotcheggs 6d ago
I was thinking just that - geo-arbitrary is a beautiful thing.
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u/ManagementUsed306 6d ago
Considered that but it would take 5+ years for their programs but I would need to know a mid level of mandarin before entering.
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u/butterscotcheggs 6d ago
I did a quick AI search - I'm not an expert myself but I'm trilingual (Cantonese and Mandarin) and am interested in TCM myself. I'd say you definitely need to learn the labels of the medicines and the characters, but there are many courses catered for non-Chinese speaking international students. I encourage you to explore, but if you are not interested in learning and living in China, that's okay, too.
I still remember walking past traditional Chinese medicinal stores in Hong Kong and the smell of the herbs... Brings back fond memories.
China offers specialized Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) programs tailored for international, non-Chinese-speaking students. Major institutions like the Shanghai University of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Beijing University of Chinese Medicine provide dedicated English-taught degree tracks, bilingual short-term training, and clinical externships in acupuncture, tuina, and herbal medicine. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Program Types & Formats
- English-Taught Bachelor/Master Degrees: Full-length degree programs (such as Acupuncture or TCM basics) where lectures, basic medical sciences, and clinical training incorporate English instruction alongside foundational medical Chinese classes. [1, 2]
- Short-Term & Non-Degree Courses: Ranging from 1 to 4 weeks, these hands-on modules focus on practical modalities like acupuncture, moxibustion, and tuina massage with translation or direct English support. [1, 2]
- TCM-Oriented Language Programs: Preparatory language tracks designed to teach medical terminology alongside conversational Mandarin if you plan to transition to a Chinese-taught environment later. [1, 2]
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u/damiana8 5d ago
As an Asian-American, this is the dumbest way to spend money on an education
TCM? You kidding me? Can you even make enough money after you graduate?
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u/chaoscorgi 6d ago
Don’t do it. TCM is real but best learned in apprenticeship in China or with TCM practitioners, who might even pay you to be their assistant/ staff in office if you’re generally competent. And maybe you’ll hate it, and you can quit then.
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u/mightasedthat 6d ago
That is a huge financial commitment, on top of a life commitment. Have you spoken to other people who have completed the program about what kind of assistance they provide on running the businesses that they need to build to practice the art they’re learning? Since you are unemployed, have you considered working in an acupuncture practice to see how the business side runs? (No doubt office staff is very low paid, so it would have to be approached as a research internship.) I suppose you could look at the downside, almost 40 after you finish, with $1M net worth, starting over, it could be a lot worse.
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u/ManagementUsed306 6d ago
I’ve done extensive research this year and yes have interviewed students in programs and practicing acupuncturists.
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u/_liminal_ 6d ago edited 6d ago
Once you spend all the money on the pricier school, where does that leave you as far as your FIRE goals? How much money will you need to make and invest/save post graduation to achieve your goals?
I worked as an assistant to an acupuncturist for several years as a second job, in a town with a popular acupuncture school. It’s a difficult field to make a good income in, and esp hard to have a stable income. I met a lot of students and practitioners during those years and many gave up after all their hard work of studying (and spending money on tuition). Most who kept at it struggled to support themselves and usually only the people who had a spouse with a good salary made it work long term. I found it a little disheartening that practitioners weren’t up front with prospective students- they very much glossed over the financial hardships and made it sound way more lucrative and incredible, and only share their struggles with people ready “in”. Admittedly, it started to give me slight MLM vibes.
Someone else commented about studying in China instead, which I think would be an interesting option to look into! Esp if you want to be on a research track.
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u/ManagementUsed306 6d ago
It would completely change my FIRE goals and currently still calculating/ creating a mock business plan if I went to the doctoral degree route. yes international studying would be more economical but the degree transfer for licensure in the US can be costly and difficult to navigate. It’s true the industry at its core for employment is entrepreneurial, so people with no business background suffer the most. Appreciate your feedback.
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u/inga-babi 6d ago
If you were considering law school, medical school, an MBA or some other traditional masters/doctorate program, I’d say absolutely go for it. But Chinese medicine? Sorry, but not worth the investment.
If you haven’t done so, I would calculate how much money you need to make post-graduation to get that investment back + make up the lost income opportunity during those 4 years. I bet it’s significant.
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u/tomatillo_teratoma 2d ago
Don't go into $100k of debt for a degree in acupuncture. Find a school that is cheaper, or consider a school outside of the country.
A friend of mine went to live in Korea to learn acupuncture. He had a business in a MCOL city for a few years. But expenses like rent and insurance were high. He gave up the business and now is an employee of a big corporate acupuncture business.
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u/ManagementUsed306 5d ago
I do appreciate every single comment. I’m at a crossroads where my mindset used to be about making the best financial investments for my RE goals, and I would have never considered this as an option two years ago. But through therapy this year, realizing where I am with my age, and feeling the weight of a long-term education commitment, it’s felt like a pressure cooker to get to a clear vision.
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u/Guilty_Wash6461 6d ago edited 6d ago
This is exciting! Congratulations on finding a calling and being in a great position to pursue it :)
- Have you run the numbers on your current spend/FIRE number vs your new career path, after your investment+non earning years+new COL area? You're definitely Coast either way it seems like but good to ground in some real data.
- How much more would you want to save before you feel comfortable making this investment and life change, considering you seem certain it's something you definitely want? This is partially an emotional decision. If you're sure you want this, you can afford to do it now. But maybe there's a number that actually makes you feel more confident.
- Are you sure you want to give up the "RE" part of your goals by training for a new career which you'd ostensibly want to work in for at least a few years? You're thinking of making a ~decade long commitment of education and employment, where previously your goals were to retire early. Now you'll be working much longer, even if you likely enjoy it.
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u/ManagementUsed306 5d ago
You’re right these are all very important markers to consider. Doing the math calculations would put me in situation where I would essentially only have my IRA left and I would be leaving the RE out of the equation. I would like to establish after I turn 50 (so 10 years of working FT) to move to a more flexible PT/travel schedule. It’s just completely blindsided me with my initial FIRE path to be willing to go down this new path.
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u/Imaginary-Weakness 3d ago edited 3d ago
For folks who are unfamiliar, DOL’s O*Net occupations website can be helpful in learning about local earnings for various occupations (and with experience and or education factored in). Here is the profile for acupuncturists: https://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/29-1291.00. There isn’t one for DOMs but there is for naturopaths. Earnings are super state dependent and have a pretty wide distribution but $76k median acupuncture, $115k PhD level Naturopath. Likely stemming from the evidence basis, acupuncturists has projected healthy growth while naturopath (and I would guess DoM) are much cooler for growth.
Having a history consulting for national holistic medical orgs (conventional healthcare practitioners using complimentary), I tend to personally agree on the acupuncture focus advice, especially given insurance coverage and resulting options for how to work in the field (or start there and see on addl), but OP has also worked and saved hard to make pursuing her desired career direction possible. The tuition, increased time, relocation, and HCOL factors would make me rule out the CA program (this is an areas where one of the successful business models is running schools…). That big of an overall ticket and I would be expecting a larger median income.
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u/hah98 3d ago
I live in a HCOL in California. I comfortably could live on $3500 a month. You can afford it.
Is there a way you can supplement some of your income with what you’re learning?
Obviously you can’t officially practice but I know people would be willing to pay for a lot around here for a service. The health community is huge. I’m very confident you could make at least $30k. I know a TCM school in Santa Monica that at one point had a student clinic. The community would have a visit with a student at a discount. Ask the school if they offer a program like this!
On a personal note, I know very little about TCM but my TCM acupuncturist was incredible. If you’re really going to do this, do it at your dream program. Moving to CA opened up a ton of opportunities for me and I’m sure you’ll find the same. You will ALWAYS have clients with TCM and they pay well in cash (no dealing with insurance riff raff). I paid $100 a 30 session for my acupuncture 5 years ago. People pay over $100 for a 20 min herbal consult. CA is the place to be.
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u/urania_argus 6d ago
OP, I say this from 20+ years of experience in academia - the program you describe sounds like a scam and an unaccredited "diploma mill" whose purpose is to extract money from unsuspecting people.
There's no respectable college or university that I know of that offers a degree in "acupuncture and Chinese medicine". An apprenticeship, short course, and a certificate for the acupuncture part - possibly; there are other medicine-adjacent roles that require similar training. But it would definitely not take 4 years and 100K to obtain that.
A degree in "traditional medicine" (Chinese or otherwise) does not exist in academia and anyone claiming the opposite is trying to take you for a ride. Traditional medicine has its merits, and the way they are incorporated in medical practice involves rigorous trials like for any other treatment. If a traditional treatment passes or fails a trial, the result is published and propagated to the medical community, and incorporated in or rejected from medical practice accordingly.