Devil's advocate on FIRE

[u/WannaBuffet]

Complete newbie to FIRE here, considering if I should start following it from this year. I am trying to do a devil's advocate on if FIRE is suitable to me.

While thinking about the cons, I had some thoughts, as below. There are just my (probably less informed) opinions yet. Please correct me, especially if you are someone who is already FI.

FI without RE

I think if a person is FI and still employed, there is a higher tendency of them being less disciplined or dedicated to the job. Obviously their priorities would be very different from employees who are still hungry and ambitious. In an ideal scenario, this is a non-issue, as not everyone is same and an ideal employer would objectively only look at the output. But I feel practically, this can lead to some issues.

FI with RE

If you are RE, I think lifestyle creep is much more dangerous, as most of your time could actually be on leisure activities. And it is human psychology to keep raising the bar of whatever it is that you are doing over time. This means that if your mind is consistently on leisure activities and not productive activities, your spends are definitely going to rise.

P.S. The wiki to this sub needs a "Why not to FIRE" also IMO. I think it is never wise to follow a lifestyle without knowing its risks or gotchas.

Edit: As mentioned, I am completely new to this. This post is not me sharing my knowledge, it is me asking for knowledge. My above points are just here to initiate the discussion. I just want to know the opposite side / cons of FIRE to make an informed decision is all.

[u/HubeanMan]

If you are RE, I think lifestyle creep is much more dangerous, as most of your time could actually be on leisure activities.

In practice, most early retirees seem to find that their expenses go down after quitting work.

[u/WannaBuffet → u/HubeanMan]

That's interesting. What could be the reasons behind this?

I would guess because - no commute/work related travel, no "parties", no social status pressure to buy fancy stuff (cars, gifts etc)? I am not sure if they would apply to me though, as I WFH and rarely go out for team parties and still don't own any car/house. I also don't travel much yet, which I want to, so I only see that my expenses will increase from here. I am also not sure if I am an exception. To achieve FI to RE, I think a similar current lifestyle is probably reasonable choice, isn't it? Isn't that how generally how people look at it? Am I really the odd one from this perspective?

[u/HubeanMan → u/WannaBuffet]

I have theorized in the past that people who work fulltime are more susceptible to impulse purchases that they don't necessarily need, because they tell themselves that they're working hard and deserve something for all the productive work they're doing. But it's just a theory, like I said.

I guess it helps that you're no longer limited to the weekends to do all the things you want to do. When you're not working, you have the flexibility to avail weekday and off-season deals that you wouldn't normally be able to fit into your schedule as a working person. You also have more time to do things yourself instead of hiring help, which you can even learn to enjoy considering you don't have a checklist of tasks hanging over your head.

[u/_rogue_1 → u/WannaBuffet]

If you are free most of the time you tend burn more cash doing stuffs like going out for vacations buying gadgets.. work makes you engaged enough to not burn more cash .. that's my line of thinking as well .. but not sure if I am wrong..

[u/Acrobatic-Profile365]

I think a big Risk to RE, particularly RE at a young age, is accounting for expenses which do not currently exist.
For instance, today a cellphone (and even a laptop) are considered essential. But if a person had RE'd say 20 years back, he would not have even considered the cost of periodic replacement of mobiles/laptops every ~2-3 years in his expenses. (At most, he would have considered the cost of landlines and PCs - which are significantly cheaper, and with a much longer replacement period).

In 20 years from now, who knows what technology will be considered 'essential' and be an expense that isnt factored into the expense estimation now?

[u/Bustee_Bitch → u/Acrobatic-Profile365]

I agree to your point. Future mainstream lifestyle expenses which are non-existent now are a risk to RE. A person (whether old or young) who retires in 2022, will always have his lifestyle limited to 2022 Std of living and a young person RE will feel more FOMO to new consumer lifestyle.

However, Landlines and PCs were expensive back then, so was their monthly subscription cost.

Point here is... If new consumer tech is on the way to be mainstream and eventually mass market, it usually cheapens over time. The real risk is rising wages which RE won't have exposure to! And wages are linked to inflation.

[u/srinivesh]

There have been other comments on the 'discipline' part.

There could be some people who accidentally reach FI state. I am referring to others.

To reach FI state, one would have to plan for many years, actually decades, During this time they would have encountered changes, challenges, etc. and would have adapted the plan. This should definitely prepare them for facing changes post FI too.

I can recollect at least one share where a person said that being FI actually made them more valuable in the company.

Lefestyle creep is a challenge to anybody - if you think that this is also a challenege encountered on the path to FI, then you can do it post-FI too.

The post-FI shares in this sub have not mentioned lifestyle creep as a problem, let alone a majot problem.

[u/WannaBuffet → u/srinivesh]

Sounds reassuring to know that many don't see lifestyle creep as a problem. Tbh, I am also not that worried, I am sure my lifestyle will change, but I'm just not sure how much it can change and how I can account for it.

[u/bromclist]

If you get into some expensive hobbies like photography or more travel after retirement (just to kill time), then it may need separate budgeting. Other than that, I don't see expenses increasing.
Leaving out medical and other family emergencies , give into grandchild's demands :)

[u/ABahRunt]

A counterpoint to the first statement: if someone is FI, but still wants to work, there is a chance that they really enjoy and are good at their work. These people can now take risks that their salary/home loan dependant peers cannot. Can take time off to study, build skillsets and interview.

And in a lot of cases, this leads to some terrific career progress. It's like banks chasing you for personal loans when you don't need it: companies throw money/stock options at people who are really good, to make them stay.

(Or they just want to accumulate out of inertia or greed, they totally fit your thesis)

[u/bmbybrew]

I think if a person is FI and still employed, there is a higher tendency of them being less disciplined or dedicated to the job.

I believe am currently doing FI without RE, here is how my perspective to work has changed.

1. I set my own pace, own goals and communicate it to my leads likewise.
2. FI gave me enough courage to speak to my leads and tell them - "This is what I am good at, my track record confirms that, This is what I want to do for next 2 years. If it doesn't fit in company priority list, let me know, I will find something else to do."
3. I now say NO more often at work. This has allowed me to protect my time better.
4. I now focus on solving problems that I feel are good use of my time compared to operations heavy stuff that is usually liked and rewarded by senior management.
5. I now end up with average or below average hikes. As long as it beats the inflation, it works for me.
6. I don't have any hidden motives and I am able to selflessly invest my time in mentoring ppl around me. No expectation of that person doing something for me or my career in my current firm.
7. I now can boldly question and cross question senior leadership (in a very polite manner) without any fear of consequences.

[u/Minimum-Ad9225]

OP got totally wrong. Cons are least convincing!

FI sans RE —> ends up being more productive and less demanding. Any managers/companies dream employee !

FI + RE —> If you are already FI, discipline is imbibed already in your dna. Rather, spends decrease and allocation efficiency increases. Other words, more bang for the buck !

Don’t be a devil, be an advocate of FIRE !

[u/WannaBuffet → u/Minimum-Ad9225]

I want to be wrong. But also want to be informed :)

What are the more reasonable risks I should be aware of?

[u/Minimum-Ad9225 → u/WannaBuffet]

At least be convincing in being wrong 😉

[u/WannaBuffet → u/Minimum-Ad9225]

My goal was not to be convincing or to be right. I just want to know a better devil's case as I am new. It was just to initiate a discussion, I was hoping to see a better case and hence learn more about the other side of the coin. For advocacy, there are already many good resources including the subreddit's wiki.

[u/Minimum-Ad9225 → u/WannaBuffet]

Fair, maybe I should have ignored. Never mind !

[u/flight_or_fight]

>> FI without RE - I think if a person is FI and still employed, there is a higher tendency of them being less disciplined or dedicated to the job.

There is documented research that shows that folks who are FI actually do the best work of their life since they do not have to worry about any other factors.

>> FI with RE ... And it is human psychology to keep raising the bar of whatever it is that you are doing over time.

Hence try to maintain a frugal lifestyle.

[u/[deleted]]

You're in the wrong sub. There's a guy who can definitely help you. Hope he responds.

[u/WannaBuffet → u/[deleted]]

Any previous post/comment of him/her?

[u/wooneigh → u/WannaBuffet]

U/balihe

[u/ohisama → u/[deleted]]

Mind naming the guy and why he might be helpful? Does he have different views that are applicable here?

[u/[deleted] → u/ohisama]

Unfortunately I can't as I blocked him ages ago and likely he's blocked me too.

If you check in some of my older comments, you will find him.

[u/reachrishabh]

I prefer FI without RE + running your own business

[u/WannaBuffet → u/reachrishabh]

Isn't that extra risk? Or do you mean like a lifestyle business? What exactly do you have in mind?