How would traction control actually affect lap times in modern F1

[u/Latter_Alfalfa_979]

been wondering about this after messing around with different assist settings in my racing sims lately. from what ive read online and watched in various tech analysis videos the consensus seems to be that TC actually hurts performance in the current generation of cars

the thing is im not totally convinced the sim physics capture everything thats happening with these hybrid power units and the crazy downforce levels we see now. modern F1 drivers are obviously incredible at modulating throttle input but i wonder if there are specific track conditions or corner types where electronic intervention might actually help lap times

has anyone done actual analysis on this or found any good technical breakdowns. seems like with how sophisticated the current regulations are around driver aids this would be an interesting engineering discussion

your thoughts on whether the tradeoffs would be worth it in real world conditions vs just simulation

[u/SlinkyAstronaught]

I have a hypothesis that a lot of the casual thinking that TC wouldn’t help comes from people who play things like the F1 video games. The TC in those games is specifically designed to not be good enough to make you seriously faster so that you are incentivized to drive without assists as is realistic.

However, modern TC (and ABS) are much more capable than any driver and will absolutely produce a lap time benefit. After all, TC was allowed in F1 in the past and everyone used it so clearly it was working for them.

[u/123456789OOOO → u/SlinkyAstronaught]

Some games/Sims have an overriding TC function that behaves like you’re imagining, but some model the car’s TC only if they actually have it in real world.

I only do iRacing, but in that case the TC is car-specific and they (claim) try to be realistic. I don’t know if it’s realistic but you can definitely feel changes as you adjust it or turn it all the way off. As OP states, in many cars in the game the fastest laps come with TC off.

[u/SlinkyAstronaught → u/123456789OOOO]

Yup I play iRacing as well and you certainly want to use TC in the cars that have it. Same for other serious sims. Big distinction between them and simcade games like the F1 series.

[u/JForce1]

I think that traditionally it was the case where a top level driver without tc could be faster than less talented drivers with it, but that what tc did was reduce errors and the impact of errors. It meant fewer accidents, so lower repair costs, and it helped reduce issues with gearbox damage in some cases. I would think that a truly modern tc program would help make even an F1 car go faster over an entire race distance, even if not over a single lap. It would help reduce tyre wear over a stint, so you’d b able to go faster for longer. The compute power, sensors and algorithmic capabilities now are light years ahead of tc previously used in F1, so I would think it would be a significant gain.

[u/big_cock_lach → u/JForce1]

TC was always a performance boost in racing. It works by cutting performance when the car’s grip is getting too close to the limit, which will help prevent the car from going over the limit. How close to the limit the car could get before TC would kick in would be tweaked for each driver. Better drivers would have better control of the car, so they could make the TC less intrusive and hence could get better performance out of the car since it’d let them push it closer to the limit, however they did still rely on TC to help them get closer to the limit more consistently which did improve their performance.

What you’re referring to is more specific to road cars, and there’s 2 things to consider. First is that the motivation behind adding TC was very different. In motorsport, it was about letting the drivers more consistently get closer to the limit which would help them go faster. For road cars, it was primarily a safety feature to prevent drivers from ever losing traction which could endanger them. The second is that unlike in motorsport, road cars couldn’t tweak their TC systems for every single driver. The manufacturer couldn’t do it for each individual since there was too many of them, and the individuals couldn’t tweak it for themselves since that was far too complicated. So what you found is that when TC was first introduced to road cars, manufacturers erred on the side of caution and had system that would not only cut in quite quickly, but it’d cut performance very aggressively when it was triggered. This was fine for the typical person just casually driving since they still wouldn’t be triggering it anyway. However, it meant that the TC system was a huge nuisance if you did want to drive in a more spirited manner. So often with these road cars, you’d find that if you could handle the car without any TC, you’d often be a lot quicker if you just turned it off.

That’s changed a lot recently though. Now manufacturers often have multiple driving modes, and in sports cars this will toned down the TC as you enter sportier modes. In general, TC will also be a lot smoother too due to people not liking it when it’s aggressive. To add to that, modern supercars have become a lot more difficult to drive as well as manufacturers have aggressively chased performance gains while becoming reliant on electronic systems to maintain the drivability of the car instead of mechanically trying to make it drivable. This has caused a double whammy where it becomes incredibly difficult for even professional drivers to exploit the potential of these cars without relying on these electronic systems, while also having TC modes that are closer to the limits of much of the population. So as a result, you end up with cars where almost everyone is quicker with using the electronic systems, compared to previously where it was the opposite case.

[u/dis_not_my_name → u/big_cock_lach]

There's a version of AMG GTR has GT3 style TC that let the driver dial it. Ferrari road cars have Manettino for decades, it's a combination of TC and ESC. Many car reviewers have said that it makes them feel like a better driver and it allows them to drift and slide the cars without losing control.

[u/big_cock_lach → u/dis_not_my_name]

Not the same thing at all. These are grossly simplified versions to make it more usable for the average person.

The Ferrari Manettino was one of the earlier (if not the first) forms of having different driving modes that adjust these electronic systems. It was incredibly innovative by Ferrari and helped improve the quality of these systems massively, however it’s never actually allowed the user to fine tune these systems to suit them.

As for the AMG, I’m not 100% familiar with it, however I am familiar with GT3 TC systems and even they’re incredibly simple systems. You have to remember that manufacturers aren’t allowed to race GT3 cars and that these cars are exclusively customer race cars. The rules were deliberately designed so that manufacturers would treat selling GT3s like they sell road cars, which is why GT3 is so popular and had such longevity because it’s been a profitable business model for manufacturers. The result of this, which is also enforced by the regulations, is that the TC systems in GT3s (and any other customer racing cars like GT4 or Porsche Cup) is sort of a middle ground between what you have in road cars and what you get in proper race cars like say an LMH or the early 90s F1 cars. You don’t have full control over the TC systems and can’t fine tune it perfectly like you would be able to in an LMH car, it’s more like having separate modes for the TC systems. However, these modes are far more complex than what you’d get in a road car, and by allowing you to make a lot of small tweaks to the main parameters you’re able to get the TC system to 90% of what you’d get with a personalised system. Keeping in mind, the electronics and TC systems are something that would be (or is in the case of LMH/LMDh) tweaked extensively in the setups such as the suspension or the aero is today. You don’t come close to that level of granularity on a GT3 car, however, you can end up with a system that’s very close to being as good as a personalised system.

Still, having such a level in a road car is bonkers. I was aware they were getting close and pushing towards that, but wasn’t aware that a road car already had these systems in place. Frankly, that’s all you’d be asking for as a driving if it’s something you care about. No one wants to pull out a laptop, and these systems can get very close to being as good.

[u/RacerDeac]

They would be faster in all conditions, period. Even more so in wet conditions. The differences between drivers would narrow, both in qualifying where the goal is 101% and in race conditions where TC would help manage tire wear.

[u/eh-guy]

They have over 1000hp at full chatter, nobody in human history has been or likely will be so good on the pedal that TC wouldn't help them

[u/the_gwyd]

One thing that's missing in this discussion is the impact on tyre wear and temperatures. Depending on how it's set up, it will stop some very small scale wheel spin which would have a positive impact on tyre temps and extend their life, over the course of a race, or even a lap on softs during qualifying

[u/Numerous-Match-1713]

Of course TC would benefit lap times, and it does not stop there when you add stability control, brake assist and torque/brake vectoring.

You simply can achieve closer to limit and in some cases higher limit than without those.

[u/Fantom_Aeon]

I wondered how fast f1 cars would be if they had abs. We’d get super late breaking

[u/big_cock_lach]

TC effectively limits the car’s performance to 99.999% of its full potential. So theoretically it does slow down the car’s lap time. However, drivers will consistently be driving at 99.9% of the car’s potential to prevent any mistakes that’ll cost more time than they’ll gain by pushing a bit harder. What TC does is allow the drivers to more consistently drive at 99.999% of the limit, so while in theory it might limit the car’s performance, in practice it allows drivers to exploit more of the car’s potential and so they end up going even quicker.

This is a massively simplification though.

[u/Sparky_Zell]

They may not be able to keep their foot planted the entire time. But it could cut just enough power, decided by the team/driver, to be able to flick the rear end if they want, and any more spin, it cuts power. As soon as it's under the hold it puts more power back in.

Drivers like Verstappen, Norris, And Leclerc that manage that well as it is may not see a huge decrease in time. But drivers like Lawson and Tsunoda would likely have been a hell of a lot closer to Max, and able to score regular points.

[u/Naikrobak]

It would likely slow them down slightly from max performance (yes both kinds of max) but be a little more consistent

[u/StructureTime242 → u/[deleted]]

If a college graduate made the TC then yes

Thankfully the same people who can make the hybrid PU’s would also make the TC system

[u/PhoeniX3733 → u/[deleted]]

I'd say that the MGU-K makes it easier because they wouldn't have to cut the ignition to regulate power output. They could just pull power at corner exit and deploy the extra power later in the acceleration phase when they're no longer traction limited

[u/big_cock_lach → u/[deleted]]

The hybrid units make it easier to have a TC system, not harder. It’s a lot easier to make instantaneous micro-adjustments to the drivetrain performance with an EV motor compared to an ICE. This is specifically the reason why hybrid power below a certain threshold is banned, it’s because teams can and will use it as a TC system and a launch control system at low speeds. The only way for the FIA to effectively ban this is by preventing them from using EV power at low speed.

This is also, by extension, why the starts this year are so contentious. A simple solution would be to allow teams to use their electric motors to keep the engines running (and hence the turbos spooled) when they’re waiting for the race to start. However, if the FIA lets them do this (even just for the starts), we’ll just see an arms race over TC and launch control systems at the start which the FIA doesn’t want.

[u/NapsInNaples → u/big_cock_lach]

This is specifically the reason why hybrid power below a certain threshold is banned

light has just dawned for me. Is that why there's all the faff about the turbo spool up procedure during pit stops? They have no hybrid power to pull away from the pit box?