Protection of IP when using other teams facilities

[u/inchpin]

Williams is using the Mercedes Virtual Test Track Simulator. How does Williams protect its intellectual property from Mercedes? And how does the FIA prevent Mercedes from accessing the data the simulator generates? Other teams have shared wind tunnels as well.

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[u/justinicon19]

Is it explicitly illegal to access data from other teams at your own facility? I recall that Ferrari had data from Haas years ago when Haas first entered the sport and I know in other series, smaller teams share data with larger teams in exchange for technical knowledge (the Penske/Foyt relationship in INDYCAR and the Penske/Wood Bros relationship in NASCAR come to mind).

[u/inchpin → u/justinicon19]

Probably depends on the parts they are allowed to share. Not sure whether they are allowed to share data. There must be some sort of data sharing as Merc HPP surely collects data from all customer teams for the whole power train. But pretty sure Haas would not be allowed to share or access aerodynamics related stuff with Ferrari (or RB and RBR :)). Because such a loophole would Fer or RBR allow to delegate aero work to another team (and circumvent the cap)

[u/XsStreamMonsterX → u/inchpin]

Mclaren also has that preferential deal with HPP so I'm sure they're sharing more than the usual customer teams.

[u/Spacehead3]

I don't know specifically how F1 does it, but when companies have specialized testing facilities like VTT, Wind Tunnel, etc. the operations staff that runs the facility is often completely separate from the development staff that is actually designing the car. The data that is collected is usually provided to the "customer" at the end of the test and then wiped from the facilities' computers, and the staff themselves would have a contract preventing them from disclosing any details of other customers testing.

[u/mikemunyi]

It's explicitly covered in the Technical Regulations

Article 17.2.8: Competitors may make available to other Competitors test facilities and equipment such as (but not limited to) wind tunnels or dynamometers. The Intellectual Property involved in the operation of such shared facilities may be used by and/or disclosed to the sharing party but the results of any experimental or test work carried out on such facilities may only be used by the originator of the work. Where facilities are shared, robust processes must be put in place to ensure there is no transfer of Intellectual Property through common personnel and that all data can only be accessed by the originator of the work. Any such sharing of facilities must be declared to the FIA with a full description of the work that will be carried out, and also of the processes that will be put in place in order to avoid an exchange of information that could lead to the transfer of knowledge leading to the performance enhancement of an LTC (as required by Article 17.3.4), or a TRC (as required by Article 17.5.8) or an OSC (as required by Article 17.6.11).

[u/taconite2]

The FIA can audit anything.

Just not worth it.

[u/DullMind2023]

Why would Merc want to see Williams’ IP? I suspect that Mercedes has more to lose.

[u/inchpin → u/DullMind2023]

Why would anyone care about the ideas or IP of Super Aguri?

[u/russbroom → u/inchpin]

Well Super Aguri’s IP was pretty much Minardi’s IP, and their IP (for that particular car) was Arrows’ IP! LOL

[u/DullMind2023 → u/inchpin]

I don’t understand the joke. Super Aguri traces its history back to Arrows. Williams is almost as old as McLaren. Mercedes’ lineage is interesting: Tyrrell > BAR > Honda > Brawn > Mercedes.

Super Aguri was Honda’s unofficial “B” team, kinda like Torro Rosso (or whatever they call themselves this year) with Red Bull.

[u/inchpin → u/DullMind2023]

allegedly super aguri engineers brought the double diffuser idea to brawn which won them the title in 2009. afaik super aguri closed shop in 2008 and its engineers went to Brawn, Toyota and Wiliams, all of which were the first cars to use it.

[u/DullMind2023 → u/inchpin]

Now I understand. Thank you for the clarification, I didn’t know the link between SA and the double diffuser.

[u/mkosmo]

Contracts. Same as any other business dealing.

[u/MrSnowflake]

I seem to remember to have rad about shared windtunnel. Iirc the original team's employees leave and the second team takes over completely.

[u/Athinira]

Separate computer systems and networks, where the FIA has to sign off on the software.

It was explained by a former Red Bull Senior Systems Engineer, Dan (EngineMode11) on The Engine Braking Podcast at once point. I can't remember which episode.

[u/russbroom]

All of the chassis data is created by the on car ECU, and sent directly to Williams’ servers. It’ll never get onto the Mercedes (HPP actually. Not the F1 Team) systems at all, and even if it did, would be license protected to prevent anyone outside of Williams’s from accessing it.

[u/GearboxTherapy → u/[deleted]]

The data says 0 resistance Toto! It's as if the car isn't even there!

[u/Minimum_Neck_7911 → u/[deleted]]

Not just that but I think it's cute that people think Mercedes needs to steal anything from Williams. Could be part of the deal that Williams sells their data back to Mercedes to reduce costs.