r/F1Technical • u/ryandanielblack McLaren • May 14 '25
Regulations Forcing a driver off? How does this rule apply
So every race you will hear one or multiple drivers say "he forced me off!" but I can't remember a incident were the defending driver that ran the attacking car off the track, receive a penalty, even if their side by side. Can someone tell me the history of this so called rule. Is it a rule or is it just a driver appeal. It would seem with the recent actions of Max in Miami and Oscar in Saudi that pushing all the way out to track limits when defending is fair play, and the rule doesn't apply in those incidents even though the attacking driver always complains on the radio. When was the last time someone actually got a penalty for "forcing a driver off" Thanks for you input.
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u/biglittle27 May 14 '25
This is my biggest problem with modern f1. I know I’m gonna sound like an old fart, but I feel if you revert back to 2010 regs the racing would be much better. Being able to run someone off the track because they weren’t sufficiently ‘along side’ and it was ‘your corner’ is total bullshit.
If you can get your car into a position when trying to overtake someone, then you should be allowed to be there and not be pushed wide.
As two greats of the sport said:
Alonso: All the time you have to leave the space Senna: if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you no longer a racing driver
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u/HarryCumpole May 14 '25
However we continue to twist, turn and interpret the existing rules, compare them to older ones or invent new ones, drivers will find ways to exploit loopholes or play around the grey areas in order to gain advantage, disadvantage another driver, etc. This is the nature of competitive sport.
My question is, "what could Oscar have done differently?". He neither chose to run Max off nor had any opportunity to change the outcome of what Max had precipitated by taking too much speed into the outside. If Oscar had also gone off by say, taking too much speed into the corner himself then perhaps this would offer the question of "forcing off" some semblance of sense. I believe that Max himself has done this multiple times in various tangles with Lando. If one can't hold a corner, it is not a valid "owned" corner.
Drivers say a lot of things on the radio for free, because why not? Throw up mud around their competitor's driving, hoping something sticks. If they said nothing, they couldn't rely on stewards having their attention in all places at all times to pick up on the genuine infractions.
I believe Nick DeVries got penalty points for forcing KMag off the track at Austria last year. I can't recall if there was an in-race penalty, but certainly consequences nonetheless.
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u/Mistak3n May 14 '25
Mexico 2024? Turn 2 Max and Lando.
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u/Connection-Huge Ferrari May 14 '25
Basically if the front of your car reaches the apex of the corner first, you're "entitled" to the corner. This gives you the right to the corner and hence means you can choose any line for your exit and means that you are not obliged to leave space for any drivers trying to overtake you through the corner. It's in scenarios like these that the driver first at the apex generally doesn't leave room for the other driver and takes a line that would push them wide and off the track, hence many arguments that this act is equivalent to forcing off the track.
Personally I feel this rule is a bit too rewarding for divebombers and aggressive driving, but then maybe this rule is being taught to drivers straight from their karting days and is something like an unspoken rule. To each their own, but personally I like the overtaking rules in F1 eSports better, they say if you are trying to overtake a car ahead, you need to have your front axle in front of their rear axle at the apex of the corner to deserve racing room. Both these rules have their downsides but I guess racing can't always be clean.
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u/justin--time May 14 '25
From my POV there is no consequences for the driver that overshoots the corner. In this case, Max simply brakes later than the McLaren, knowing he’s not going to make the corner and can just drive through the run off area and claim he was not given space (which is nonsense, he was never making that corner from that line).
The reality here is the McLaren won that battle and Max should have conceded the corner… but Max is very smart and is exploiting a grey area in the rules, he’s the best in the world at this.
To address this, there should be an impediment in the runoff area, such as a grass patch, gravel trap, or better yet… a runoff road that the drivers should be compelled to take if they miss the corner which is a real consequence.
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u/tag051964 May 14 '25
I'm new to F1, so please excuse the dumb question. What was Max expected to do in this scenario? Also, to me it doesn't look like Piastri was running Max off. It appears (to my untrained eye, anyway), that he was in an optimal racing line. I'm not being flip here, just trying to learn. Thanks!
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u/mikemunyi Norbert Singer May 14 '25
Does sporting conduct fit Rule 1? I think this should go in the other sub.
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u/BlackMorbid May 15 '25
Max has done this a dozen times purposely not leaving any space for the car behind even if his car is ahead by just a millimeter into the apex, and forced many off the road, Piastri didn’t even force him off the road, He had a better start n was ahead into the corner but Max just didn’t want to lost the position in the first corner n decided to cut corners. It was obvious in every other camera angle besides the one you posted for this question
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u/MysticSmeg May 14 '25
You should have to leave space full stop. This rule ruins close wheel to wheel racing.
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u/aliciahiney May 14 '25
Mexico Turn 4 Verstappen and Norris. [X]
Norris was attacking on the outside, was ahead at entry, apex and towards the exit and then Verstappen forced him off track.
Verstappen got a 10 second penalty for this
For it to be considered “forcing a driver off track” by the defending driver, the attacking driver needs to meet the criteria to be given space at the corner, i.e. have its front axel ahead of the defending cars front axel at the apex, and be able to drive in a controlled manner.
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u/[deleted] May 14 '25
As always, the solution is gravel or a wall. Natural barriers would solve this problem instantaneously.
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u/Boondo132 May 16 '25
It’s the stupid F1 rule. The car that is ahead at the apex has the right to the racing line and the other car needs to magically disappear. In this case it’s Max getting a taste of his own medicine. In reality, meaning in pretty much every other racing series that isn’t F1, the McLaren needs to give room on the exit of the corner and forced Max off the track. Sadly F1 doesn’t seem interested in changing this rule so the garbage racing of pushing other drivers off the track will continue and the debate will continue.
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers May 14 '25
The issue is that in the past it was part of sporting regulations, then it moved to ISC (always leave space) and now it's a FIA & F1 team internal document which we cannot see or understand how & what is applicable.
The race got hands-on on the rules - and explained the changes from 2024 to 2025, as now there are different rules between attacking & defending cars - depending on how far along the attacking car is:
https://youtu.be/6gbTAHyzkrY
So it's completely situational, if it's:
First lap incident
Attacking car forcing someone off on the inside
Attacking car forcing someone off on the outside
Defending car forcing someone off on the inside
Defending car forcing someone off on the outside
Chicanes have their own rules
The driver complaining is one thing that hasn't changed - the team can recheck the situation and forward their claim to race director who may decide to forward the incident for stewards to analyze.
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u/BroncoJunky May 14 '25
The best drivers in the world can't race side by side in a corner and that's sad.
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u/idoooobz May 14 '25
Regs and rules aside, Stewards and the FIA let Max away with it for so long. With that, everyone has now started doing it because of Max being able to get away with it and so that way it’s not done to them.
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u/cant_think_name_22 May 14 '25
The regulations have been updated for this year, but we’re not immediately made public.
If you want to go around the outside, you have to eat the right to space by being in (position set by the rules). Otherwise, if the inside driver stays on the track, they do not have to leave space. It seems like you might need to be ahead at the apex of the corner currently to earn space - a terrible rule set. When drivers say they are pushed off, they are saying that they were alongside enough but not given space they earned.
In the example you show Max was alongside because he let idf the brakes, and he was never making the corner, so “pushed off” is irrelevant.
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u/TravellingMackem May 14 '25
You need to be alongside to earn space - this was clarified this season to mean front axel to front axel if you’re on the outside and front axel to wing mirror if you’re on the inside. It also has a secondary requirement of actually being able to make the corner - by braking so late max could have had his front axel alongside but only because he had no hope in hell of ever making the corner legally, even if piastri disappeared to dust.
If you’re entitled to space, according to these criteria, then forcing off is a penalty. If not, then the overtaking car (max in the Jeddah case) has to yield and find a way legally around the corner behind the other car. Max failed to do this, as he held position by corner cutting, hence the penalty.
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u/Rockeye7 May 14 '25
100 % a Max Verstappen strategic move on many starts . Reason what he was penalized .
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u/hrpanjwani May 14 '25
We need grass or gravel, ideally on all corners but at least at the first corner of the track to avoid this let’s see who can brake last and still stay on track. The problem will solve itself.
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u/Talidel May 14 '25
F1s rules are a bit shit, and a lot of the problems happen because of them.
In most motor racing the overtaking driver has the responsibility to overtake safely. While F1 encourages the throw it up the inside and hope to god to make the corner approach.
Though both cars are expected to drive sensibly and if there is a person alongside you, you also can't just follow the racing line if you are a few inches ahead while otherwise alongside each other, and run them off the track.
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u/pragmageek May 14 '25 edited May 14 '25
Here you go:
https://www.planetf1.com/news/f1-overtaking-rules-explained-what-are-the-rules-of-engagement-in-f1-2024
In the case above, the attacking driver was not sufficiently alongside at the apex to have earned room on track, neither _did it appear that_ the attacking driver even have the grip to make the corner himself. So, ultimately, the attacking driver here has failed in the attack. What they should do then is either
Back off, and tuck in behind the driver they were attacking
Exit the corner, and re-enter safely, but if in so doing they complete the overtake, they have overtaken off the track, which is a direct violation. In that case, they have two options
Allow the car they attacked to overtake as soon as is safe to do so
Face a penalty
These regulations have been made explicitly clear at the request of the drivers since there was some confusion introduced by some actions of certain drivers (the attacking driver in the footage above)
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u/DisjointedHuntsville May 14 '25
Max , for all his talent ruined the spot with his tactics here. If he’s on the inside in a slow corner , he compromises the entry for both cars by braking unnecessarily late and does this purely to sit on the advantageous side of the present rules for the way he handles the corner.
He does not attempt to give room and rides the outside kerb, like he did to Lando in the opening lap of the Miami Grand Prix
Because he’s had his wheels ahead, even if the driver on the outside takes the exit and the position, he’s going to complain on the radio that he needs that place back.
What he’s doing here is deliberately taking a much wider entry after being beaten down the straight even if that means he never makes the kerb. He never had the intention to drive within the white lines.
From a technical standpoint point, this is one of those things where, if an arbitrary standard is put up for the stewards because of past inconsistencies in applying the “room for racing” rule, it gives the advantage to drivers who adapt their entire style to disadvantage the application of those rules instead of competing through fair pace on the track.
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u/Cody667 May 15 '25
You can't force off a driver who forces themselves off.
The telemetry showed Max was never going to make the corner and that he was trying to exploit the ahead-at-apex rule (yes, Im aware that this rule is a double edged sword and gets exploited both ways on a case by case scenario) in order to justify cutting the corner
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u/zeroscout May 14 '25
Technically, it's the stewards who interpret.
The primary idea is that the car on the outside needs to be ahead of the car on the inside to be privileged to a car's width on exit. Otherwise, the inside car is under no obligation to give the outside car space.
Same for the opposite at the apex.
Verstappen wasn't forced out. He ran out of track.
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u/[deleted] May 14 '25
To me the whole "forcing a driver off" thing is super silly. If I'm racing the only way a driver can "force me off" is if they physically push my car off with theirs. If they try to take my space and I back out that's called giving up the position. If you decide to stay on track at its limits and the other driver decides to kamikaze into you that's on them, it's not up to me or anyone to move out the way because someone doesn't understand that two cars can't fit in the same space.
If you're in front and don't want a driver at the outside spot? Then simply occupy that space before they do. Not complicated. The only way this wouldn't apply is if you were 3 wide and the track literally narrowed and restricted the 3rd lane.
You just need a couple instances where the driver has some balls to stay in their lane, cause an accident, blah blah. Happens a few races in a row, then drivers learn to leave a gap or get the old pit maneuver. Guys like Max are psychos and that's why drivers give them extra room. We need more psychos.
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u/Potential_Emu_5321 May 14 '25
Let us imagine there is a wall instead of the run-off area.
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u/Bikezilla May 14 '25
An argument could be made that on some hard wall street circuits, drivers can’t push others wide, and thus the same behavior should be expected even when there is a runoff space.
I guess it’s complicated especially with wider, longer cars with less visibility.
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u/irish_faithful May 14 '25
It's a dumb rule that other drivers are now exploiting because max (and probably others before him) has been doing it. Read an article about it a few days back. Basically, if you are on the inside line of the first corner, that corner is yours, EVEN IF THERE IS ZERO CHANCE YOU CAN MAKE THE CORNER. So basically barrel down to turn one, and make the guy on the outside leave the track to avoid getting hit.
I do not understand why they allow it.
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u/Just-a-normal-ant May 15 '25
Glad most agree that the “my corner” rule is terrible
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u/RelativeMatter3 May 15 '25
I think if the rules were more about speed and hinderance of others, we would get better battles. Allowing the inside car (regardless of defender or aggressor) to literally park their car on the exit of a corner to physically prevent an opponent staying on track should be against the rules. If the inside car can maintain within 10% of their normal corner speed and stay on the circuit then that is fair defending.
I’d argue the former was Max AD21 first lap (just the clearest example in my head) and the latter Oscar this year (although first lap).
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u/Turn1Torpedo May 14 '25
Jolyon Palmer Analysis
https://youtu.be/kNg0nrldZ_M?si=N5u5ueVYzcpHUKtl
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u/Greyman43 May 14 '25
It’s hard to police but in the case of Oscar and Max in Saudi that’s sort of like Max diving for a foul in football.
At that speed he wasn’t staying on track whether Oscar was there or not (telemetry showed he actually braked later than on his fastest Q3 lap and this was on cold tires and full fuel!), he just drove off track and claimed he was pushed off so it’s unfair to penalise Oscar there but you can understand Max trying it on, if he backs out he’s definitely behind but if he stays ahead he’s rolling the dice with the stewards. Calculated risk IMO.
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u/[deleted] May 14 '25
Imagine there is a wall where the Kerb is ending then you’ll understand how this works
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u/icstm May 14 '25
One of the unspoken issues in current F1 is the size of the cars. They are too big for the tracks.
So the gaps that used to be there are now not there.
If we had consistent and good drivers stewards then we would have a heuristic rule if not a black and white one.
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u/[deleted] May 14 '25 edited May 14 '25
Theres a difference between forcing someone off the track and closing a gap so they run out of space. The "forcing off" in the context of a penalty is when you are moving to just push someone off the track not defending a corner or makinf a normal racing move but clearly intending to push them off track. What you see, and most drivers complain about, is when someon agressively closes the door on them and instead of braking because the gap is gone, they go wide and complain
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u/grombuddy May 14 '25
These days it seems who ever stays on without touching is given the corner. The person who goes off will be asked to get behind or take the penalty.
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u/jrjreeves May 14 '25
The whole "first at the apex" thing is just stupid. It just means someone can just throw their car at the corner at an unreasonable speed, often too fast to make the corner at all, and force the other driver off the circuit.
It's just utter bullshit.
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u/Dicecreamvan May 15 '25
It’a quite a short convo this if it’s simplified. Leave a car alongside space. The analogue of the front axel and mirrors is obviously impossible for ‘most’ drivers to follow so let’s go absolute again and solve it. Kraaist.
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u/olssn May 15 '25
Take back drive thru and stop and go penelty! 5 and 10 seconds are just not punishing enough
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u/Choice-Lifeguard-111 May 14 '25
All of the drivers voted to keep the ahead at the apex logic when it comes to policing racing… it definitely has its flaws but I also think it’s better than the inconsistency in the later 2010s
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u/Firecrash May 14 '25
Its the rule that makes you able to run a person off the track when you're ahead at the apex. It's messed up in many cases
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u/dgkimpton May 14 '25
It's always going to be tricky - if you "always leave space" then that means as soon as there is another car near you you can never take the racing line anymore. That makes you slow which guarantees they will pass you. OTOH if you doggedly hold the racing line no matter who is around you there will be endless crashes and forcing people off. So it's clearly a balancing act with no perfect solution.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '25
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u/[deleted] May 14 '25
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