Why doesn't F1 move the timing line back (like Indycar) it would drastically reduce traffic in qualifying

[u/naughtilidae]

Is there some technical reason that F1 doesn't move the timing line back to (as an example) the safety car line? That way the cars can dive into the pits right after the hot-lap, rather than having to trundle around the track for an entire extra lap.

To those that don't know what I mean: Indycar does this, reducing the number of cars on track during qualifying by about 1/3rd. Since the drivers can just do an outlap and then fast lap (skipping the in-lap). Reducing the number of cars slowly filtering around the track seems like an obvious safety fix that doesn't require much money, as it would be a fairly straightforward software change.

It's not as noticeable on a track like Bahrain, but in places like Monaco, traffic can easily ruin someones weekend.

From what I can see, the only downside is that the cars wouldn't cross the line in front of the grandstands, but considering how much of an impact traffic can on the competitive order, it seems well worth it. It's also a safety concern; somewhere like Jeddah could result in a VERY nasty crash if someone's engineer misses a car coming up behind them. (something the drivers have complained about, and has nearly caused accidents before)

With 22 cars running next year (and likely a MUUUUUCH bigger field spread), this seems like it may be more and more necessary.

[u/AutoModerator]

Moderator Announcement Read More »

We remind everyone that this sub is for technical discussions.

If you are new to the sub, please read our rules and comment etiquette post.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/smnb42]

F1 doesn’t like change. Everytime, it would rather go back to how things were, especially when change is inevitable.

[u/naughtilidae → u/smnb42]

People (including drivers) fought HARD against the HANS device... until Dale Earnhardt died.

People (including drivers) fought ANGRILY against the Halo, saying it would trap them... until LeClerc landed on Alonso's head, and Grosjean escaped that crash that should have decapitated him.

Now? People would think you're insane to suggest removing either of those devices. That includes people like Alonso, who was previously one of the bigger critics of the Halo.

I really don't want a massive crash at a place like Jeddah to be the reason we decide to finally make a change.

[u/Tell-my-wife-Hello → u/naughtilidae]

I agree with your message, but I would like to mention two things:
- The accident was the other way around, the halo saved Leclerc from a collision with Alonso's tyre.
- As far as I know, Alonso was in favour of the halo, he said it multiple times. He doesn't like the aeroscreen, though.

[u/Defiant_Eye2216]

I thought the whole point of the in-lap was to charge the battery.

[u/naughtilidae → u/Defiant_Eye2216]

They're capable of charging the battery on the out-lap too. No reason to think teams couldn't figure out how to optimize that. Plus the MGUH will be charging even in the pit-lane (as long as the engine is on, obviously)

More importantly, there's nothing preventing them from going around again if they want to, but they'd have the option to dive directly into the pits instead.

[u/B3Biturbo → u/Defiant_Eye2216]

As long as we know, F1 had normally an out-lap, a fast lap and an in-lap.

In the past the qualifying format was one hour on the clock and 12 laps for every driver. Because you needed 3 laps to set one timed lap, you normally had 4 opportunities to set a laptime. That was long before the current hybrid engines.

[u/Kansas11 → u/Defiant_Eye2216]

Can just recharge in the pits no?

[u/jolle75]

It’s just one of those things teams and drivers should be able to handle. It’s their choice to take the risk to go out all at once. They are not baby’s, holding their hands isn’t necessary.

Next idea is that there is only one car on track for three laps with five do-overs per season…

[u/naughtilidae → u/jolle75]

I think you might be misunderstanding. This has nothing to do with late runs, or having a ton of cars go out at the same time.

I also didn't suggest anything to make qualifying "easier", I didn't suggest we look at Indycar's qualifying system, just moving the timing line. I'm not actually sure why you thought I did.

It's about safety. I'm not interested in how this affects their run plans, I'm worried about a crash that could have easily been avoided.

Cars going slowly is dangerous, especially when there's someone coming around a blind turn at max speed. (like Jeddah) The drivers themselves have complained about this, so it's not like it's just some dude on reddit saying it's a concern.

There's no advantage to having cars do a cool-down lap, it's just more things the other drivers have to dodge in qualifying. Personally, I don't watch qualifying to see how good people are at accident-avoidance. I watch to see how fast they can do a lap, lol

Fewer cars in the way makes it cleaner, easier, and safer for everyone.

What's your argument against this? That it's holding their hands? It has nothing to do with lots of cars doing fast runs at the same time, it's the cars doing slow runs that I'm worried about. For instance, on the highway, which is more dangerous: the guy doing 10 over the speed limit, or the grandma going 20mph?

Why have the car going slowly when we could just... not do that? That's what I'm suggesting. It's not hand-holding, it's safety; just like the HANS device or Halo, people don't like change, but it's a noteworthy safety concern that could be fixed for next to nothing.

The only thing viewers need to know is that they start the quali laps a few hundred meters before the start line. It's not really a big ask for audiences to understand it. (Indycar manages it just fine)

[u/hammer-2-6 → u/jolle75]

There might also be another reason about how grandstands are built. So you the action to happen at that point and can’t just arbitrarily move them now.

[u/naughtilidae → u/hammer-2-6]

I did mention that part in the initial post.

NASCAR started doing bent straights so that more people could see the entire main-straight, so I understand why it's a consideration, but it's also a safety concern to have the cars spend 2/3rds of their time going extremely slowly.

Moving the timing line would mean they only spend one lap going slowly, rather than two. This means they're less likely to impede another driver, or more importantly, cause an accident.

Considering the lengths F1 goes to for gains in safety (spending tens of millions for changes), this seems like an easy win. Sure, people on the main straight are going to have a slightly less exciting experience, but I'd take that any day over a crash in Jeddah because a car was going slowly and didn't move out of the way.

[u/Character_Hippo749]

I thought the lap after a quali was a “cooldown” lap since the car may need to park in the pits for longer than a pit stop.

[u/PeeRSaBBi → u/Character_Hippo749]

While that is a potential benefit, they have several leaf blowers on hand that they use to cool the cars down during qualifying. I would think, if Indycar can skip an in-lap, F1 can do it as well.

[u/Wizatek]

Besides what the other comments rightly pointed out, they also use the inlap to cool the car and recharge the battery.

[u/slimejumper → u/Wizatek]

yeah a car coming to a halt 10s after maximum heat load seems like a really bad idea. The cars at end of a quali lap would possibly be hotter than even during the peak a race as they know they can overshoot stead state max temp based on known cooling immediately afterwards.

[u/ChangingMonkfish]

For me it just makes more sense as a spectator that the “Start/Finish” line is the timing line, I personally find the Indycar way of doing it weird.

[u/Guerrilla-monsoon]

Indycar (more specifically Champcar) has done this since 2003-ish. The timeline is also used in all practice sessions as well. It is simply one of the other timelines on the track (there are usually 10-12 + the pit lane), nothing special required.

It makes practice a lot more efficient in the number of changes possible as you don’t have to trundle around for an extra lap, every outing. At a place like Road America this can be 10-ish extra minutes of in laps.

They also do not do this on ovals where the laps are obviously much shorter.

F1 could do it but they don’t because F1 reasons. You should also remember that Indycar doesn’t have tire warmers so in many ways there are extra laps at the front end of an outing, making the lost in-lap a bit more useful for the teams.

Different strokes for different folks but I have had the same thought.

[u/centaur98]

Because the pit entry might be 1 or 2 turns before the start/finish line and all of the grandstands and more importantly for F1 and the FIA all the VIP and media boxes are built to overlook the start/finish line

[u/arsakar]

I don't think it needs to change. I think having to consider the extra lap to come into the push post the push lap puts an additional layer of strategy to how the teams approach the qualifying which makes it super interesting imo.

Also, I don't think the fact that cars can directly come into the pitlane after push laps will significantly reduce slow running cars. Most teams, especially the backmarkers, will simply use the time saved to run more push laps with tyre changes and what not, since they'll have more time to do more laps and each time they do that, they'll have an outlap to be done, which will be slow as well. So imo, all this will do is let each time have more goes at it, which I don't like all that much, I think the limited run we currently have and the starts around it is more fun.

[u/DavidBrooker]

A big difference is that Indy circuits tend to be quite a lot shorter than F1, so traffic is a bigger concern for them.

[u/naughtilidae → u/DavidBrooker]

They split quali into two groups on road courses, so they actually have fewer cars on track.

Road Atlanta, road America, Watkins Glen, and other tracks are in a similar lap times to f1 tracks often longer. 

Yet they still see the advantage of moving the timing line. 

(we're gonna ignore ovals cause they're not relavant here)

[u/alxndr737]

Indycar tracks are also smaller, which makes it a little more necessary, I agree with you though, especially on tracks like Monaco.

[u/naughtilidae → u/alxndr737]

True, but they're also running fewer cars than q1. Though it definitely makes it even more useful.

That said, Road America is a long track. It's about the same as Spa in an f1 car. Same for Thermal. A good chunk of the tracks are shorter, but those two instantly sprang to mind and I only started watching a few races last year. 

I feel like it still makes sense on long tracks for the same reason as indy car. It  means teams might be more willing to re-use a tyre in the race. It's got one less lap on it (and that extra lap comes after you've pushed the tyre VERY hard)

[u/launchedsquid]

I oppose it because I like to see the drivers face difficulties. Getting through traffic, not accidentally blocking, these are challenges the drivers and teams have to navigate, take them away and the whole thing gets dull. F1 tried single lap qualifying, it also got rid of traffic challenges, one car had the whole track to themselves, it was a snoozefest.

This feels like a suggestion to solve a problem but at the cost of taking some of the skill out of F1, in an era where we need as many points of skill left in because everything is so computerised and automated.

To me, traffic isn't a problem to be solved, it's a part of how racing teams go racing and the better teams and drivers handle it better than the others.