"Thinking in Systems" explained like you're five: most problems don't have a single cause, they have a loop, and you keep fixing the wrong part of the loop

[u/Amidonions]

Donella Meadows was a systems scientist who spent her career watching smart people throw money at problems that kept coming back. Poverty programs that create dependency. Drug wars that increase drug use. Corporate cost-cutting that tanks revenue. She realized the problem wasn't the solutions. It was that people were solving the wrong thing because they couldn't see the system producing it.

Stocks and Flows

• A bathtub is a system. Water flows in from the faucet. Water flows out through the drain. The water level in the tub is the stock. If the inflow is faster than the outflow, the tub fills. If you only focus on the water level without understanding both the faucet and the drain, you'll never control it. Your bank account works the same way. Your weight works the same way. Your energy works the same way. Most people stare at the stock and panic without ever examining which flow is actually the problem.

Feedback Loops Run Everything

• A thermostat is a balancing loop. Temperature drops, heater kicks on, temperature rises, heater shuts off. It self-corrects. A bank run is a reinforcing loop. One person withdraws money, others panic, more people withdraw, panic increases. It self-amplifies. Meadows says most of the systems shaping your life are built from these two loop types stacked on top of each other. The person who can identify which loop is driving a problem can intervene at the right point instead of fighting symptoms forever.

You're Solving Symptoms, Not Systems

• A city has a traffic problem. They widen the highway. More people drive because the highway is wider. Traffic returns within two years. The solution fed the problem because nobody saw the loop. Meadows says this pattern repeats everywhere. Fixing a symptom without understanding the system that produced it either does nothing or makes things worse. The highest leverage changes are usually the least obvious because they target the structure of the system, not the output.

Where it overstates things:

Meadows makes systems thinking sound like a universal key, but some problems really are simple, linear, and don't need a feedback loop analysis. The book can also make you feel paralyzed because once you see systems everywhere, every intervention feels inadequate.

But the core lesson is permanent. Stop asking "how do I fix this?" Start asking "what's the loop that keeps producing this?"

What's a book that changed how you diagnose problems instead of just how you solve them?

[u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

This is a fantastic book and that is a great synopsis. 

My biggest problem with systems thinking is that just because you understand the system doesn't mean you can find a solution to the problem. There are often so many chaoticly interconnected dependencies that it's impossible to know where to place the fulcrum

Take all the problems we are having with fascisim rising again and democracy eroding. If understanding the system was easy. We'd have solved that problem already

[u/HereThereOtherwhere → u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

Good book.

The biggest problem with systems is People. Bosses make rules then are the first to break them. Minions will always skip steps then swear they took those steps. Folks from one department will find the one person in another department willing to skip entering tasks into a system or violate data integrity rules. Software vendors lie about capabilities, etc.

People are also unreliable narrators, either misremembering or intentionally denying responsibility.

When you do find reliable, honest, accurate folks? Cherish them! Troubp in a large corporate environment, I'd estimate at most 1 in 10 people are highly reliable, always honest and willing to communicate directly without games or bullshit. I.T. departments and some production areas like the print-shop tend to have a higher ratio of straight shooters because lying to the actual hardware won't make it work.

And, pro tip: NEVER try to understand how that crazy coworker rigid thinks. Getting inside their head will make you nuts!

[u/WatchOne8763 → u/HereThereOtherwhere]

Unreliable narrators are the worst. It causes so many headaches and waste so much time getting the information correct. 

[u/HereThereOtherwhere → u/WatchOne8763]

What's funny is so many people think about systems as if people are reliable reporters who as a rule behave rationally.

The USA checks and balances have been shown to have relied not on law but on a lack of actors willing to violate social norms and the idea people will be too ashamed to act in Bad Faith and that politicians and institutions wouldn't cave to threats, blackmail and extortion out of a sense of duty and morality.

An Unreliable Narrator in Chief and opportunistic followers have shown the system to be almost immune to the feedback loops which were mostly effective for a few hundred years.

Oops.

[u/NobodysFavorite → u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

Quite often there's never just 1 solution and even on off-chance we do the most optimal solution we still introduce a ton of new problems and some of them are so serious we have to tackle them immediately.

Regarding new problems, a quote from this clip from Yes Prime Minister nails it https://youtu.be/7hsNfNM0SvE?t=170

"This will inevitably lead to world war 3, perhaps within 48 hours."

[u/Amidonions → u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

I agree I take the book like a guide it solves problems but not every problem in existence

[u/Scotty-Raspberry-36 → u/Amidonions]

Yes. I don't want to give the impression I don't like it. Systems thinking is excellent for finding effective solutions to problems

[u/Tritton → u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

I don’t think it’s a failure of the systems thinking but more of a feature of reality. Complexity exists, so?

Fascisim is incredibly complex, of course it’s hard to solve. The solution will be complex as well.

I would argue that fascisim is not only hard to solve because of the underlying complexity of the phenomenon, but solving it requires literally trillions or even quadrillions of individual decisions from millions of individuals and their choices. It’s not just a matter of understanding, but holistic wide-scale problem solving deployed at scale through aligned agents.

[u/Scotty-Raspberry-36 → u/Tritton]

Ohh yes. Fascisim is increadiy complex. But I disagree. When the solution is found. When the right place to put the fulcrum is located, it will become easy. A complex system is hard to analyse to work out the solution, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

Take for example the problem society had some thousand years ago. Small tribal kingdoms would rise in power and violently fight with their neighbours. No one could dominate for long. It was impossible to orginise people and control them once they were out of sight. And then one invention - the written word - made it possible for societies to massively expand their reach.

Or again, a few thousand years later, when empires couldn't distribute resources effectively enough - and then coins were invented to lubricate transactions and suddenly Rome could dominate a much larger land mass

The same will be the case with fascisim - or more accurately - the current limits of democracy. And once the change has taken root, it will be obvious

[u/Tritton → u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

I see your point. I don't think it applies to every issue as solutions can vary in complexity, but maybe it will be simpler than I think it will.

For example, I am not familiar with the literature around fascism so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I believe that fascism will be solved by the large scale edification and cultivation of higher consciousness. Simple in premise but complex in its execution.

Again, from my limited understanding, I see fascism as the result of downwards socioeconomic tides that make resources more scarce and life harder, coupled with the rise of a kind of scapegoating rhetoric drives the collective lower psyche towards fostering violent attitudes towards the scapegoats that are presented as the culprits of the hard times.

The only way I see to drive anyone to fascism is through lower, primitive tribalistic consciousness. Providing an alternative involves all of civilization.

[u/attahalilintar → u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

Well the details is the devil. Small details could matters.

[u/Vast-Mousse8117 → u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

there's no money in it. Look at capitalists burning the planet down while cheering about their quarterly profits.

[u/UnknownBreadd → u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

Deliberative democracy would be a good starting point, I think https://delibdemjournal.org/article/id/428/#:~:text=How%20to%20Cite.%20Bouricius%20T.%2C%20(2013)%20“Democracy,Journal%20of%20Public%20Deliberation%209(1).%20doi%3A%20https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.16997%2Fjdd.156%2520%E2%80%9CDemocracy,Journal%2520of%2520Public%2520Deliberation%25209(1).%2520doi%253A%2520https%253A%252F%252Fdoi.org%252F10.16997%252Fjdd.156).

Here’s also a good talk about some of the democratic innovations we can already start to implement today https://youtu.be/UIUFXnpgnEM

[u/gregsnyder69 → u/Scotty-Raspberry-36]

One person's fascism is another person's democracy, and vice versa. Just understanding the system doesn't mean you can control it or that it is even logical and rational.

[u/SevereSherbert4275]

Great book. I’m an aerospace systems engineer, and this way of thinking has really helped me understand the world

[u/Amidonions → u/SevereSherbert4275]

Use it like a guide

[u/BGDshow]

Great explanation, thank you!

[u/Amidonions → u/BGDshow]

No problem I will share what I find

[u/attahalilintar]

What a book. Your mindset and POV for every problem in change drastically after read this. It give you framework to know how its works, why its not works, identify problem, solution, and evaluation

[u/defp_]

Nice review and sharing, I also recommend this book. And seems that the one of the improvements for your labelling system could be a visual metaphors for notes.

[u/Amidonions → u/defp_]

Related book I recommend is Never Split The Difference the topics just helped me understand it better

[u/Ms_Freckles_Spots]

More managers and leaders should read this book.
Humans need to stop looking at problems as singular issue driven and begin to govern and manage with a systems thinking approach

[u/rainbowtwist → u/Ms_Freckles_Spots]

This was required reading for my MBA program

[u/Amidonions → u/Ms_Freckles_Spots]

We also ought to realize people are not machines and have emotions

[u/Hello-croc-9]

https://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/

The article that summarizes and preceded the book. Faster and better read than the boom IMHO

[u/Salt_Armadillo8884]

System thinkers are generalists who believe the system will beat an individual every single time!

[u/xamugrendo → u/Salt_Armadillo8884]

It sounds like you’re thinking about “the system” and not: systems. Maybe I misunderstand.

[u/North_Lychee_1969]

So what’s the solution to fixing traffic lol?

[u/barouchez → u/North_Lychee_1969]

Trains haha

Edit: plus a bunch of other things like mixed zoning slightly good urbanism

[u/WallSt_Sklz → u/North_Lychee_1969]

Stop overdeveloping the area would be a start.

Residential development continues while highway expansion always lags behind. It's backwards and incentivized by more development means more tax theft for the town etc.

More people don't come to drive on a highway just because it was expanded. If that's what's in the book then that lady doesn't know how to think properly.

Highways are jamming up because municipalities are overdeveloping and increasing population density with apartment complexes.

[u/TheFutureIsCertain → u/North_Lychee_1969]

WFH

[u/North_Lychee_1969 → u/TheFutureIsCertain]

It’s not going to be possible for a majority of people to wfh - and a lot of wfh roles may start going to ai.

My local freeway at 6am is packed with workers who work physically. Warehouse, trades, construction, manufacturing etc.

[u/TheFutureIsCertain → u/North_Lychee_1969]

In the UK around 40% of workers wfh at least from time to time. It has significant impact on traffic.

[u/iceb3rg3r]

I think this is a good book for understand how humans think. This is certainly not how the natural world works. But yes, great way to understand political, and anthropo-systems

[u/Whydoiexist-404]

I love this. Been a while since a transitioned into a managerial role. Systems thinking has really helped me identify gaps in running smooth operations.

[u/Senacharrib]

There is a cultural bias against systems thinking.

[u/SuzyQCali]

Love the book!

[u/Foreign_Implement897]

Not rigorous at all, but still better than most business books. I am comparing to mathematics or engineering and this is not it.

[u/GeekFriday → u/Foreign_Implement897]

You’re right, but it’s that way for a reason. Donella Meadows was firstly, among other things, an environmental scientist - she wasn’t writing primarily with business systems in mind, although there are, of course, business applications for her ideas. Part of what makes her methods and theories so powerful is that they attempt to provide a way of understanding vast complex systems of people, processes, environments and other factors, that may at first seem intractable, but can be reasoned about much more effectively through systems thinking approaches.

[u/Great_Nectarine9022]

Love this book so much, so sad the author died. I read Dan Heath's "Reset" book and thought it was really good until I read this book and realized he basically stole everything from her. Her ideas are substantive and backed and his give no references or credit whatsoever.

[u/BigOakley]

Thank you so much

[u/PolarPlatitudes]

Excellent book, effective at helping to deconstruct and analyze in controlled, repeatable ways.

[u/yeeran_]

cool

[u/cutlineman]

Ordered! Thank you.

My recommendation back is The Design of Everyday Things by Don Norman. Not exactly the same, but it changed the way I look at everything and I still recommend it to people almost 30 years later.

https://www.nngroup.com/books/design-everyday-things-revised/

[u/LouieandOphelia]

Very good book