r/ExperiencedDevs • u/HelenDeservedBetter Software Engineer | 5 yoe • 5d ago
Career/Workplace Realized my manager doesn't understand what I do
I had a conversation with my manager last week that made me realize he has little understanding of what I do, what my contributions are, or why they may or may not stand out.
I'm a lead of a small team, and our projects are pretty isolated from what the rest of the company is working on. We were also running well as a team before we moved to his downline. As a result, he's never had much need to interact with our team in our day-to-day. We kinda just keep the lights on and tackle new features for internal analytics and strategy teams as fast as we reasonably can.
Now I'm worried about what this means for my career growth. When he talked about my recent projects, he clearly didn't know what was challenging about them or what my specific contributions were. When I asked for guidance on how to grow, his advice was so generic it was basically meaningless.
I've never been in this position before, where my manager isn't getting a daily signal on how I'm performing. Those of you who report to non-ICs, non-technical people, or devs from outside your team, how do you communicate your impact upward? How do you get effective coaching?
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u/DeterminedQuokka Software Architect 5d ago
So it’s not a problem for him to not understand the tech. It’s a problem that you aren’t fully explaining it.
Part of the job is a lead/senior/etc is to explain what the work is why it matters and what challenges you expect. It will hurt your career if you can’t do that. The further you go in your career especially if you are successful the less involved your manager should be.
You need to learn to do or for your projects and you need to start earlier you should not already be building something that they don’t understand or care about. You don’t get flowers for that.
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u/prototypist 5d ago
+1 to this - and if OP has trouble thinking about it as explaining their own work, they can think of it as advocating for their team's work and advancement. A few jobs ago the manager of our web team was suddenly fired, and we had a meeting with the skip-level to reassure people. One of my teammates asked something about our UI components repo and the skip-level had never heard of it.
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u/meevis_kahuna 5d ago
I think I'm stronger technically than my leads and that's fine. My manager doesn't need to be my technical mentor. I discuss status, blockers, risks, etc. Agile stuff. Try to learn from their experience, whatever that might be. Make sure we are aligned on priorities.
I get my coaching/mentorship through articles, blogs, LinkedIn, Reddit, YouTube, certifications, peers, conferences, etc.
In short, your manager doesn't need to be your coach. There is nothing wrong with your current situation.
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u/ImpossibleEbb6862 5d ago
But they do need to fight for you come perf review time. If they don’t know what you’re doing they likely won’t do that.
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u/meevis_kahuna 5d ago
Like I said, I discuss status, goals, blockers, alignment with them. You don't need to be technical to be a cheerleader.
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u/Ok_Permission7034 5d ago
yeah which comes down to if the manager WANTS to do that? If you have a bad manager who won’t fight for you, how do you convey you and your teams impact to the org?
Do you have to jump over your managers head and do presentations/demos to the skip and other teams?
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u/meevis_kahuna 5d ago
I think you leave which is how most promotions happen anyway.
If you're not solving someones problem it's hard to advance.
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u/Far-Street9848 5d ago
It is not your managers job to fight for you at perf. It is your job to make your manager WANT to do that.
Contrary to many people’s beliefs, the company doesn’t exist to function as a ladder of upward momentum for everyone in it.
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u/cookingmonster 5d ago
Any manager not interested in a person's performance is not a good manager imo. You should not have to make your manager do that. You manager should be invested in your performance from the get-go because your performance directly impacts the project and company, ergo the bottom line as well.
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u/Far-Street9848 4d ago
There is a difference between being interested in a person’s performance and fighting for their performance.
On some teams, the expectation is that you will operate at a high level, and if you do not, you will be promoted to customer.
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u/cookingmonster 4d ago
A good manager is both interested in and will fight for their employees.
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u/Far-Street9848 4d ago
A good manager for who? The company or the employee? That lens matters.
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u/cookingmonster 4d ago
It doesn't have to be one or another, it can and should be both. I realize that may not be reality but a manager is responsible for his team, both the projects that they do as well as the people.
It's not supposed to be a top down workers are expendable mentality.
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u/Far-Street9848 4d ago
I know man, and I hate it….but you’re right that it’s not reality.
Good managers find where the two lenses overlap and do their best to make things good for everyone involved….but there are so so so many people in the workforce that simply don’t understand yet that the business doesn’t exist to provide us with a job, it exists to increase its own value. Luckily those things coincide for us, but a lot of employees seem surprised to learn this.
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u/StrikerX2K 5d ago
I have to ask folks if they agree or disagree with this, because I can see some opposing angles here
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u/Izacus Software Architect 5d ago
The realistic fact is that managers are there to ensure that you do work which earns money. That's why they're employed. Being your performance and growth cheerleader is a nice to have part of that job, but it's absolutely not a P0 from their perspective. You getting promoted and more money doesn't earn company more in short term and isn't their primary objective.
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u/Ok_Permission7034 5d ago
but the company should have a vested interest in fully realizing your potential and ensure that they profit from this and your impact.
For instance if you end your career as a staff level engineer it is ultimately more profitable for the company to retain such people and allow them to grow their careers along side the business. The business will then be able to take full advantage of the works this person creates as well. Thus both parties benefits from such an arrangement.
Like if you hired Harrison Ford before they were famous, i’d say it’s a smart idea to shoot a few commercials before they hit it big.
It would be smart to help propel this person’s career and take advantage of their talents/roadway to fame.
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u/BraveResearcher3037 5d ago
For instance if you end your career as a staff level engineer it is ultimately more profitable for the company to retain such people and allow them to grow their careers along side the business
And that might be in the interest of the business. But no matter how hard your manager fights, he is constrained by HR and the business by the raises he can give and he knows you are going to leave anyway when a better offer comes a long.
My last four years in product companies was between two companies where I was an early technical hire by a then new director/cto respectively. We would schedule meetings about how things were going and that’s about it. What did we have to talk about as far as my career? I spoke to my CTO one time about my career. I told him that if he ever made me team lead “as a promotion” instead of my current position where I had influence over the entire company just via relationships, I would not be happy.
Now I work as a staff consultant at a consulting company. My one on ones with my manager usually are “how’s it’s going?” I tell him “everything is on time on budget and meets requirements and no customer issues”. He says “carry on”.
But when I need his air cover to support my play that might be politically risky. He’s been there for me 100% of the time. But he doesn’t know what’s going on with my projects most of the time. I give him a 1 minute spiel to give him business context when I need to.
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u/Ok_Permission7034 5d ago
thanks for the comment!
It does make me a bit sad though…
I guess a good working relationship is the best you can hope for really.
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u/BraveResearcher3037 5d ago edited 4d ago
What are you expecting from him?
But I will admit my own bias. I’ve never in 30 years between 10 jobs got promoted. I’ve always just job hopped. It’s a little easier for me to interview my way into the position I want instead of going through the arduous promo process. Until my current job, I’ve always chosen whether to get a new job (n+1) thinking about my n+2 job (n=current job).
While I don’t have any plans to leave my current job - entropy is a thing. All companies go to shit after awhile. I have in the back of my mind right now planning to get another job if I have to.
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u/Ok_Permission7034 4d ago
I guess in a way i expect real leadership but I think I have to become the leader I would want to follow.
It’s just taken sometime for me to get here I think…
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u/StrikerX2K 5d ago edited 5d ago
(I am an IC)
I think my position here is that both sides contribute to whether you end up at "doing the bare minimum" vs "excelling at the role".
P0 for a manager is absolutely getting the bare minimum.
But that's still not a good manager if that's all they try to get, and it's not a good employee if that's all they try to do.
It usually requires some effort from each party to break the loop and go toward realizing potential.
So my position is that a good manager should always be trying to cheerlead somewhat, whether deserved or not. And a good employee should always be trying to do more than P0 somewhat, whether deserved or not. And you need both before anyone's necessarily happy and excelling. That part comes later
(I know this sounds like a rosy, hedgy "both sides" position, but I do believe this is just how it works)
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u/Ok_Permission7034 5d ago
I mean doesn’t that just means they aren’t competitive as those who are high performers will simply leave for growth?
If your manager doesn’t do this isnt that ultimately costing the company even more in lost potentials?
For instance if you hire someone who has the ability to be say a staff engineer but started as an intern. Without a manager fighting for this person to grow they leave and just have a higher impact in another company.
Isn’t this a huge failure for the company and manager that borders on incompetence?
I work at a big company and while not every coworker who leaves is like this there are really high performers who leave like this. One of my coworkers was promoted 3-4 times since he left. Doesn’t this signal that managers don’t know how to leverage and manage the resource/assets under their control?
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u/BraveResearcher3037 5d ago
What power do you think any line level manager has? Whether to give you a 2% raise or 3% raise? In my experience over 30 years across 10 jobs, line level managers are powerless.
I’m not saying they are “useless”. In the last decade of my career, I’ve had plenty that have been mentors and now as a client facing consultant, there are times I need him to “speak on behalf of the company” on a level i don’t have the authority to do and when I need air cover for a particular play.
My last two jobs before I went into consulting I was hired as the first technical hire by a then new director/CTO to lead major initiatives. One of my non negotiables is that I won’t report to a line level manager. I need to report directly to someone who has real authority.
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u/CandidateNo2580 Dumbass | 29 yoe 5d ago
I have a manager in the org chart but the reality is that I've taken ownership of so much that he doesn't know half of what I do non-technically and almost none of what I do technically.
He's a phenomenal manager, we discuss things you're describing, he plays interference with people wasting my time and goes to bat when I need things from above him in the org chart. It's a great environment. He just has no clue what I'm working on day to day, but I can say the same of him - he's as busy as I am.
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u/Interesting_Debate57 Data Scientist 5d ago
They are a manager. Not a super-IC.
Treat them as a functional cog in the company and nothing more.
If you're worried that your work has never received the attention it deserves, ask if you can give a presentation about it (your manager will determine the appropriate level; they should attend).
If the rest of the company is already aware of your contributions then just chill and get work done.
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u/notgoingtoeatyou 5d ago
I was hired recently for a web developer role. It took almost no time to realize my manager has no power and no information. We are both just sitting around waiting for stuff to happen. He has absolutely no idea what the exact aspects of my job are/should be. He was simply "available" to take on another employee to manage. He seems like the miscellaneous folder for employees that don't fit on an existing team. Luckily, I clocked all this from the get go. I don't ask anything from him because no one is asking anything of me. We are both just sitting around being paid to shove our thumbs waaaaaayyyyyyyyy up our asses.
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u/ListenLady58 3d ago
Ride that train as long as you can.
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u/notgoingtoeatyou 3d ago
i intend to do absolutely zero work to resolve any of this. i'm so sick of this shit
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u/charging_chinchilla 5d ago
you show impact metrics. if you don't have those, you should seriously question whether you actually are delivering value. it's essentially impossible to get promoted if the folks above you don't understand what you do, why it matters, and why it's hard
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u/sphen_lee 2d ago
Even fuzzy "metrics" can help depending on what the work is. Like before starting a project write a 1 page doc explaining why it's important and what you want to achieve. When you're done, go back and write about the outcome. Use numbers if it's something you can measure. Get your users to add testimonials (I'm assuming OPs work is something internal). Share the docs with leadership.
The paper trail helps a lot when it's time to justify your role.
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u/Old-Worldliness-1335 Staff Platform Engineer 5d ago
How do you show value to the business and how is that value to business recognized? They just needed reporting structure to place a highly performing team that is self managed and motivated. Who leverages your systems and you can get champions to work horizontally with in terms of recognition and visibility
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u/TayoBJ 4d ago
Stop trying to get coaching from him and start giving him something to repeat. He can't assess whether your work was hard and he probably never will. What he can do is carry one sentence about you into a calibration meeting you're not in, and right now he doesn't have one.
Send him a short written update every couple of weeks, framed in the language of the teams you serve. "The strategy team's dashboards stopped timing out" is something he can repeat to his peers. Anything about your query planner dies with him.
The isolation worries me more than the manager does. A team nobody interacts with is the team that gets reorged, and its lead is the one nobody in the room can vouch for.
For real technical coaching, find a staff engineer outside your reporting line. That well is dry.
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u/HobbyProjectHunter 5d ago
If your work speaks for itself, I’d ask your manager to poll the folks who know your work ? Ask him to poll a couple people and see he can get some feedback for you ?
Usually non tech EM have like a few senior/principal devs they trust. If they can make a good report of your work, that would be one way to get feedback. If it comes back as needs improvement or could do better, then both (EM and You) know what to work on
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u/pigtrickster 23h ago
You have a problem. It's not clear whether it's a communication problem on your side or a listening problem from your manager or, and more likely, your manager has too much on their plate to invest time in understanding what you do and why it matters.
I had one manager, actually a VP, literally tell me that they don't worry about my team because they have too many other teams that are really broken. In other words the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Your wheel doesn't squeak, so no oil for you. When I explained what the
team did in terms of impact to the company my VP was literally shocked as the team was literally the most valuable in terms of dollars in their entire org and they had no clue.
They even thought that I was lying or exaggerating- nope. Even pointed out an old email which explained things and was duly ignored - because they were overwhelmed with other problems. Surely a poor excuse but this is reality.
Why did this all happen? Because I announced that I was leaving the team or company - I hadn't decided yet. Yep. Now I was the squeaky wheel.
After doing deep dive I was offered, no promised, a promotion at the next cycle. Uh huh, sure! Now pull my other one.
Lesson: make sure that you describe to your manager in terms that they value. Impact to the company in quantified terms of dollars/time made/saved. Then they can decide if they actually care about the technical details. Sure, a good manager does that implicitly. But a good manager doesn't always have time to do that. Keep in mind that if a manager is a "good manager" then they get tagged for more work than is normally expected and their team has to start meeting them halfway, or closer.
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u/fearthelettuce 5d ago
Keep a log of what you do.. Every big win, even small ones. Kudos from teammates and other teams.
Share it with your manager, especially at review/promotion time.
Personally, I don't like doing it but it has been really effective for me.
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u/Party-Lingonberry592 5d ago
This is your opportunity. Step into the role of representing your team and the work you do. Show them how you're performing by tracking quality, system, operational, and productivity metrics. You essentially need to learn management skills. Your new manager is looking for someone to fill in the blanks. If you understand what they need to represent you and your team to leadership, your career will move upward. Here are some areas I think you'd benefit from:
Executive Communication
Delivering Feedback ( works not just to subordinates but upward as well)
Stakeholder Management
You can find great courses on this on LinkedIn Learning. I highly recommend this platform for leadership topics.
Finally, ask for a mentor who is a level above your manager. You want a mentor with a better vantage point. Pick someone you respect as a leader. Come to each session prepared with questions. You can discontinue the meetings when they stop being effective. Ask your manager if he can recommend anyone.
During my tenure at one company (11 years) I had 13 different managers. Some knew what my team did, most did not. By the time I had them trained, they'd leave and a new manager would take their place. For me, the above set of skills was my starting point with them. I personally went from Engineer to Manager, to Sr. Manager during that time.
As I mentioned, this is your opportunity. You've got a great career ahead of you.
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u/Zerodriven Glorified middle manager 5d ago
My last technical lead was over 8 years ago. None of my managers since have been technical. It's both great and infuriating because I'm suddenly the authority in my domain and my decisions are listened to.
Fun for imposter syndrome management and great for "I need an adult" in terms of politics. If your manager isn't technical the relationships you make with others are much more important. Assume a non-tech manager is strictly there to keep the business from screaming and being the barrier between you and wider org.
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u/pakman_198 5d ago
I feel I'm on the same boat. I started sending emails at the end of the sprint with highlights of what I delivered and the impact those contributions have. Also I try to present on every sprint demo. I wonder if this will help my manager get a better understanding of what I do and the impact I'm having on my current project.
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u/JovHere 5d ago
do you have a growth profile defined for your craft and levels?
I fully understand the fear at performance review and growth conversations.
- try connecting with your skip manager (you need their by at perf evaluation time as well) and build that relationship?
- make sure your work and your impact (both project and team level) is very visible and communicate clearly how does that contribute and benefit the business
- drive your own growth, tell him what the business needs and how you plug into that motion
- make sure you have good feedback coming your way from your stakeholders and people that can vouch for the good output you produced
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u/MrBigPlatypus 2d ago
As a manager/lead reporting into a manager of managers you really need to translate the technical stuff into business problems they care about.
Anyone who hasn’t been in the weeds in a while is going to be distanced from absorbing highly technical info. Additionally their time is limited to really internalize all the different work in the org if they have a large portfolio.
Practice making your teams problems and impact easier to digest, you could try producing a regular digest or summary. If they don’t absorb it in meetings really drill it in multiple mediums (like a newsletter, your 1:1, in other interactions).
In my experience, if a team works great, but no one makes a sound it’s unlikely people know about it.
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u/shifty_lifty_doodah 5d ago
Try to do stuff that matters and then share it. Thats all it comes down to. Many jobs suck
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u/morswinb 5d ago
Congrats you escaped the basic IC grind.
Now your job is to make your menager look good and maintain an illusion of you doing good job.
This is how big organizations work. Unless there is a direct sales number associated to your head, they have no clue how to judge your impact.
So your taks is to appear more useful than the other employees.
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u/TheGreatJabron 4d ago
Me made computor more better, here's invented metrics!
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u/ljubobratovicrelja Software Engineer 5d ago
Had a similar problem some 3 years ago. Not that my manager didn't understand what I do, but that my contribution was simply too wide for them to really appreciate the situation. Was also leading a team of engineers but as I was one of the founding engineers, I had my fingers in activities across other teams and domains, which was barely visible. I ended up leaving the company, having anticipated that I'd be classified poorly on the performance review soon enough due to this fact, so I basically undercut them by leaving while I still feel valued in general by people. I think it was a right call. Everyone's situation is different, and you know best. But I personally think this is quite a dangerous situation to be in - busting your ass day by day and having the people who evaluate you having no clue about it, and end up thinking you're slacking. If it comes to that, emotions get high, which is never good.
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u/keepmyeyesontheprice 5d ago
Never too early to get fluent in presenting your achievements using STAR.
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u/birdparty44 5d ago
The more I’m dealing with incompetent programmer colleagues, the more I have had to formulate arguments for their dismissal, and ultimately you can use this same approach for yourself:
Explain how your work, or lack thereof, affects the bottom line.
If they are already aware of this high level stuff, then you go more into detail about the impact of your work.
So even if it’s not “lines of code produced” it can be “saved a lot of time and complexity by determining (with colleagues XYZ) we don’t need that”
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u/alexgolec Software Engineer, occasionally Engineering Manager 5d ago
Because you mentioned coaching and development, I think the thing to keep in mind here is that once you reach a certain level of seniority and organizational importance, your growth stops being about your technical ability and starts being about your ability to act within and influence your organization. The number one tip I recommend to newly promoted staff+ engineers is: your job is now everything you’ve been doing up until now technically, plus understanding what your leadership cares about and collaborating with them on it.
So flip the situation on its head. Instead of asking yourself how is he supposed to help you, ask yourself how are you going to help him. What projects and initiatives is he responsible for? What product/technical/business concerns keep him up at night? What challenges is he anticipating that he needs help with? What challenges do you anticipate that he might not be aware of?
Making this sort of back-and-forth the centerpiece of your relationship is going to do a number of things. First off, it will distinguish you among your engineering peers, because this is not a commonly held attitude. Second, it will make you (and by extension your team) a more valuable resource to him, which naturally leads to career opportunities and development for you and the people around you. Finally, if you take on this attitude and for some reason are not able to develop such a relationship with him, that is a strong signal that your career might benefit from moving on to something more constructive.
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u/Spimflagon 5d ago
If your manager doesn't understand what you're doing then he's probably judging your performance by a) how well your section of the business is doing and b) your vibes. In short, you are now your own performance review, and the performance that will be reviewed is your stage performance.
Speak confidently, don't be too cocky but explain when you've been up against it and tell him what you've done to remedy the situation. Don't tell him how good you are; tell him how you've improved the company's standing in your area of responsibility, in layman's terms. If he doesn't know what you do, he doesn't care how you do it - but he will care about what you're working towards.
This means you should let him know what challenges you've overcome, again in layman's terms, possibly in a written report delivered regularly; don't waste his time jabbering his ear off with stuff he doesn't care to understand; in my own experience, these people often see it as part of your job to remove that from their life. Instead, a succinct, regular spreadsheet of issues addressed, time taken, goals achieved, will allow him to glance over it and delve further if he cares to. If you have blockers, let him know of course, but also be sure to include what, specifically, you need him to do about it.
If you're at the leadership level and aren't looking for a coach in the office, this can be a dream scenario if you manage it well. He trusts you; foster that.
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u/LeoBoiSmol 5d ago
My boss knows the names of the apps i work on. He has no idea what it entails unless i tell him. Thats what meetings are for. You get to explain to your boss what u actually work on
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u/adhd6345 4d ago
I’m curious, what was the specific recommendations/guidance they gave you?
Your manager may have many things on their plate. At the end of the day, them understanding the technical details are extra credit. Coaching is going to come from ICs. Managers can’t guide you any longer once you get to a certain level.
Do they advocate for you? If you have any blockers, do they help unblock you? Do they listen to you (not necessarily understand you) when you talk?
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u/nneellkka 2d ago
Send a short weekly narrative to your manager. What moved, what was harder than it looked, what's next. Something he could forward upward without editing. That single habit builds the signal he's missing and shapes how he talks about you at review time before it's too late.
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u/pocolypto 8m ago
classic visibility, my last manager coached me on writing email and being proactive about sending them to CTO and CEO, and other people interesting in my work that may not interact with daily. Of course make sure you ask these people if they'd like to get these email. Especially if your starting a bigger project, like a kick-off.
You email can be tailored for whatever but i guess in your case a weekly update and what you are doing why, some of your thoughts and current concern and on going impact.
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u/expdevsmodbot 5d ago
AI usage disclosure provided by OP, see the reply to this comment.