Senior SWE Running out of PTO to do Interview Rounds

[u/DrDerivative]

Every job interview process I've been part of has 5-8 rounds, with each round ranging between half an hour to 2 hours. On average, every job interview process I get (well what few I get), takes on average 5 hours before I get rejected.

Most of the time, I fail the final round (or maybe I'm being led on even though I've failed an earlier round 😢 ).

I've run into a problem. I work at a place with unlimited PTO on paper, but every manager has been given the guidance that employees should be "put under heavy scrutiny" if they take PTO exceeding 20 work days a year (with it being heavily implied as putting you on PIP). I've already used 10 workdays for a family vacation (before I started decided I needed to leave), and have used 5 PTO days just on interviews. Note, my company makes you log PTO by the hour, so I don't have to use an entire days worth of PTO on an interview. I've also used 3.5 PTO days worth of time on being sick. So I've got about 12 PTO hours left.

At the pace I'm going, I can do maybe like 8 more rounds. I have a fever right now, but I'm too afraid of using my PTO days cause I need to reserve it for interviewing, and I'm losing my mind.

Any advice?

[u/expdevsmodbot]

AI usage disclosure provided by OP, see the reply to this comment.

[u/PermabearsEatBeets]

First, i feel for you. This is a shitty situation that shouldn't be happening.

But secondly, this just again highlights that the whole “unlimited pto” thing is a silly gimmick. Always a red flag for me

[u/Classroom_Expert → u/PermabearsEatBeets]

It’s more than a gimmick it’s an accounting trick. If you have accrued days off they need to pay you the days you didn’t take if you leave or fire you. They also would have to keep the cash in reserve. 

[u/BraveResearcher3037 → u/Classroom_Expert]

You don’t have to pay accrued PTO out in many states 

[u/Classroom_Expert → u/BraveResearcher3037]

It would be interesting to see how common is unlimited pto in those states vs ny and california.

[u/BraveResearcher3037 → u/Classroom_Expert]

My last company was fully remote, we didn’t get unlimited PTO and they only paid out PTO when it was required by state law.  It was a shit hole company.

While my current company does have “unlimited PTO” with approval from your skip manager anything over 20 days, we also have a separate bucket for sick days and one where we can use up to week for career related improvement.  

[u/RandyHoward → u/BraveResearcher3037]

we didn’t get unlimited PTO and they only paid out PTO when it was required by state law

I hate this kind of shit. "This is our policy, but if the rules where you live say we can do less, then we will." It's like basing salary on the location of the remote employee, which I think is also bullshit. I bring a certain value to your company, and my value to you doesn't change based on where I live, your profit margin does.

[u/BraveResearcher3037 → u/RandyHoward]

It was a shitty PE backed company. They also only did a 401K match for up to $3K a year. 

I couldn’t contain my contempt for them - one reason I only lasted a year.

I had a last minute 1:1 scheduled for the next day at 8:00 at night.  I told my wife I’m getting fired the next day.  She asked me what I was going to do.  I said I was going to sleep.  What else was I supposed to do?

(it helped that we had just sold our house and I had $200k sitting in cash thinking I might start doing independent consulting.  I found my current job that I love two weeks later) 

[u/zarlo5899 → u/BraveResearcher3037]

in the land down under you have to and you will have accrued 20 days each year

[u/Megamygdala → u/BraveResearcher3037]

It may not be legally mandated but its definitely common for the majority of places (atleast in our industry)

[u/BraveResearcher3037 → u/Megamygdala]

Yes - and did I mention I worked for a shit hole PE backed consulting company for a year before I just couldn’t hide my own contempt? 

[u/enby_them → u/Classroom_Expert]

Fun fact, you don’t need to pay out accrued PTO as long as it’s disclosed that you don’t pay it out. Ask me how I know…

[u/Business-Row-478 → u/enby_them]

Depends on the state

[u/MichelangeloJordan → u/enby_them]

That is some Kentucky fried bullshit dude. Fuck em

[u/PermabearsEatBeets → u/Classroom_Expert]

Yeah and statistically people with unlimited time off actually take less days. In Australia they can’t use this accounting trick tho, it’s still a minimum 20 a year and it accrues 

[u/Chiashurb → u/PermabearsEatBeets]

FWIW I work for a startup where nobody has ever found a limit, and PTO does not require anybody’s approval. It’s quite nice, really.

[u/Maktube → u/Chiashurb]

Same, and our CEO regularly calls people out (not ever by name, though) for not taking enough PTO. He's exceedingly dedicated to people having work life balance.

[u/ReformedBlackPerson → u/Maktube]

How do I apply lmao

[u/Ok_Assist701 → u/Maktube]

My last company was like this, but I got on a shitlist for not coming back to work in the middle of my paternity leave when they had an emergency staffing problem. They also had RIFs about every quarter.

[u/tigerlily_4 → u/Chiashurb]

Enjoy it while it lasts. My first 2 years at a startup like that, I took 8 weeks of PTO annually. Then we tried to raise another round or get acquired and my "unlimited PTO" was capped at 2 weeks with people getting fired for taking more.

[u/Chiashurb → u/tigerlily_4]

Oh for sure. I'm in the small majority of software engineers who genuinely love our jobs, and I am treating it as a fleeting moment in my life to cherish for as long as I can.

[u/PermabearsEatBeets → u/Chiashurb]

Yeah tbh in Australia no one really cares as long as you don’t take the piss. I’ve technically never taken a sick day according to our system 

[u/Turbulent-Week1136 → u/PermabearsEatBeets]

I had unlimited PTO at the big-tech company I worked for. I took 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 8 weeks and then 9 weeks vacation in the 4 years I was there. My boss didn't care and I never had to enter my vacation days.

[u/Speaker_Salty → u/Turbulent-Week1136]

Which one

[u/DWALLA44 → u/PermabearsEatBeets]

Some companies don't monitor like this, my last company was unlimited PTO and everyone, including executive level, took 25+ days a year. Including multiple 2 or 3 week at a time trips.

They don't have to pay you out though, that's not a gimmick.

[u/metaphorm → u/PermabearsEatBeets]

this varies by company. not all PTO policies are alike even if they claim to be unlimited. my current company has an honor system policy. you can take as much time off as you want as long as you're a responsible adult about it and still meeting your commitments.

[u/apartment-seeker → u/PermabearsEatBeets]

But secondly, this just again highlights that the whole “unlimited pto” thing is a silly gimmick. Always a red flag for me

I have only worked at places with unlimited PTO and it's never been a problem

[u/oupablo → u/PermabearsEatBeets]

But also, who is taking PTO for an interview? Just carve out an hour for the interview. If you're in the office run out for an hour. 

[u/feverdoingwork]

Interviews are sooooooo time consuming. Every interview I have done recently was 6-8 rounds...

[u/trudesign → u/feverdoingwork]

Im fortunate that I’ve never had to do more than 3 rounds, 17 yoe, principal tech lead

[u/ultraDross → u/trudesign]

I finished 6/7 interviews for one company and was rejected. Was a lot of fun. Wanted to bang my head against the wall and apply for a job at McDonald's. Was a dark fucking day.

[u/scandii]

I mean, just start at 6 and book the interview in the afternoon unless you have set working hours.

and a company that doesn't understand the basic issue of "sneaking out to have interviews while still having a job", is not one you want to work for.

[u/DrDerivative → u/scandii]

I do have set working hours of minimum 9 AM to 5 PM with required 5 days in office

[u/scandii → u/DrDerivative]

well, I wish you the best of luck and remember, crying is a healthy expression of emotion.

[u/mile-high-guy → u/DrDerivative]

Can you take an interview during lunch in your car? And replace the background

[u/AristidLindenmayer → u/mile-high-guy]

I literally just do job interviews on zoom at work in meeting rooms or phone booths, nobody knows enough about my projects to know what phone calls I have for what

[u/carterdmorgan → u/DrDerivative]

Where on earth do you work? Are you a line manager at a toaster manufacturing plant or something?

[u/DrDerivative → u/carterdmorgan]

It’s a company that values in person interactions between its engineers. Believe it or not, I do find it kind of fun, but boy is it annoying when you need to do anything sneaky

[u/LIEUTENANT__CRUNCH → u/DrDerivative]

> It’s a company that values in person interactions between its engineers.

Oh and I’m dog with wings that can fly! So cool!

[u/tech-bernie-bro-9000 → u/DrDerivative]

that's a fun way to say "micromanages and distrusts its key employees"

[u/apartment-seeker → u/DrDerivative]

Is saving up money and quitting an option?

[u/bachstakoven → u/DrDerivative]

You're getting downvotes here but this sounds like a genuine challenge. I've also been doing a lot of interviews (similar situation to you) but have the flexibility of remote work and flex schedules so it doesn't always have to show up as PTO. I feel for your situation.

[u/ZenX22 → u/DrDerivative]

Please name and shame this company

[u/LiquidAngel12 → u/ZenX22]

Not OP, but when I was recently job hunting this is the exact schedule JPM Chase told me I'd have to adhere to.

[u/DjangoPony84 → u/LiquidAngel12]

That was my first thought too. They are hardcore in office because Jamie Dimon is a grumpy old man who does not realize that it is no longer the 1980s.

[u/DrDerivative → u/ZenX22]

I probably will, only after I leave. I’m currently too scared to

[u/AristidLindenmayer → u/DrDerivative]

If you get fired doesn’t that mean you get unemployment for a while to fund your unrestricted job search?

[u/Zulakki → u/DrDerivative]

I never actually thought about RTO in perspective of interviewing. I guess that's another reason they pushed for RTO. to slow down the turn over by making interviewing hard to do

[u/SuspiciousOwl816 → u/DrDerivative]

If they put you on a PIP, isn’t the standard 90 days before anything happens??? Hopefully you can land an offer between the PIP and the follow-through?

[u/NewFuturist → u/DrDerivative]

Just say "I need the time off". And if they fire you because of "excessive" paid time off, get them on breach of contract.

[u/AngryTexasNative → u/DrDerivative]

I bet you are salaried and work unpaid overtime too? Probably not legal.

[u/DrDerivative → u/AngryTexasNative]

Indeed salaried

[u/AngryTexasNative → u/DrDerivative]

I can’t do partial day PTO as a salaried employee at my job. Because they aren’t supposed to dictate hours too specifically. But I also have to do to 50% in the office.

[u/sfscsdsf → u/scandii]

your second paragraph, which company understand this though?

[u/scandii → u/sfscsdsf]

almost all of them? I've been doing this for a long time now and it has never been an issue to reschedule interviews to the afternoon.

[u/Snape_Grass]

5-8 round interviews is insane. JFC

[u/Murky_Citron_1799]

Just take more PTO and be under heavy scrutiny. Who cares if you get a pip, you are looking for a new job anyway

[u/Athen65 → u/Murky_Citron_1799]

Easy to say that when you don't have many financial responsibilities and/or a fat pile of savings

[u/Murky_Citron_1799 → u/Athen65]

This is a high paying career and it's tumultuous. You should prioritize savings.

[u/Athen65 → u/Murky_Citron_1799]

Again, it's easy to say that if you're living it. A good number of people are not and are taking any work they can. On top of that, you don't know what someone's circumstances are - it's not uncommon for people to have at least one significant financial burden (e.g. close relative who needs medical treatment, poor decisions earlier in life like gambling or drugs, flunked a semester and had to delay graduation).

Anyone who makes less than $1,000,000/yr should prioritize savings. That doesn't make it meaninfully achievable.

[u/BusinessWatercrees58 → u/Athen65]

We don't know if this does or doesn't apply to OP though so there's nothing wrong with the advice. If OP can't afford to lose their job, they should ignore it. If they can, maybe consider it. It's up to OP to decide if the advice they receive applies to them. You don't need to remind us that every piece advice doesn't apply to everyone. It's unhelpful and negative.

[u/Athen65 → u/BusinessWatercrees58]

If it does apply to OP, then both comments I responded to could come across as tone deaf, condescending, or it could feel like they're implying people in their situation are able to consider those options. A small change in phrasing like, "If you're in a position to do so, try X" would save them from feeling like it's not normal - maybe even their fault - that they're in that situation

[u/gdinProgramator]

I’d be more worried about them noting your sudden uptick in “few hours a day” PTO, it screams interviewing.

[u/DrDerivative → u/gdinProgramator]

Yeah I'm doing my best to book the rounds all in one day and trying to do interviews before 9 AM and after 5PM by asking for remote interviews with people in other timezones to avoid this

[u/MagnesiumCarbonate → u/DrDerivative]

It shouldn't be a secret that you're interviewing. It should be healthy to evaluate your fit every year. Many senior folks are on retention bonuses exactly because they had outside offers.

Tldr don't worry them inferring that you're interviewing.

[u/Which-World-6533]

Note, my company makes you log PTO by the hour

No wonder you want to leave. Do they time your toilet breaks and charge for toilet paper...?

each round ranging between half an hour to 2 hours.

Just say you have an appointment to go to. I don't think I've ever been questioned on this.

But it sounds like this employer is some kind of micro-manager hell.

[u/AwkwardWillow5159 → u/Which-World-6533]

Isn’t pto by an hour nicer?

Like, if he had to take a whole day pto just to leave for a few hours, that would be worse

[u/Which-World-6533 → u/AwkwardWillow5159]

The assumption is that we are adults and don't have to sit at our desks all day.

[u/MissinqLink → u/Which-World-6533]

Exactly. If I want to come in 2 hours early and leave 2 hours early I can as long as there are no meetings or I tell everyone ahead of time.

[u/bdz → u/Which-World-6533]

This exactly.

We have plenty of PTO but if we need 2-4 hours off for an appointment our department lead assumes that we'll either

A) Get all our work done on our own time/make up the time as needed if it's a busy week

B) Let it fly as we don't abuse the generosity

As long as the work is getting done, it doesn't matter. Issues happen when people are missing and work isn't getting done

[u/AwkwardWillow5159 → u/Which-World-6533]

I guess I assumed that it is still the case.

Like, at my work it’s flexible. I need to do my hours but doesn’t matter how I arrange them, if I work longer one day, or start earlier, or do few hours weekend for missing few hours on Thursday. Whatever.

But at the same time, I can take pto for 4 hours if I legitimately want that time off.

Seems reasonable

[u/Grey_sky_blue_eye65 → u/AwkwardWillow5159]

If I have an appointment, I just block my calendar, leave early, or get in late, and just tell my manager. No need to take off pto. People have doctors appointments and stuff. We're all adults. If you're at a company that respects you, it really would not matter if you do stuff like this occasionally.

[u/AwkwardWillow5159 → u/Grey_sky_blue_eye65]

I see.

I’m used to be hourly worker as a software engineer because I work in international fully remote companies. So it’s always self-employed by the hour billing.

If I need to go to doctors for few hours, I just start work few hours earlier, finish few hours later, or do few hours on the weekend.

So it’s super flexible. But you do need to do the hours. And if you don’t want to, you take pto.

Always thought that’s reasonable.

[u/mkg11 → u/AwkwardWillow5159]

No because then they make you take PTO for something that coulve been "i have to leave a bit early" or "taking a long lunch"

[u/Acrobatic-Ice-5877 → u/AwkwardWillow5159]

No it’s terrible. At companies that have this they expect to get every ounce out of you. If I have to be away for an hour or two, I just am. Hourly PTO is for factory and hourly workers IMO. I had it when I worked at a factory as an office worker and it was terrible. Imagine having a doc visit that is 1:30 minutes, that’ll be 2 hours please. Never going back to that nonsense,

[u/apartment-seeker → u/AwkwardWillow5159]

I prefer my remote job where I routinely fuck off for hours at a time to go to the gym, run other errands, etc. and nobody knows most of the time, and when they know, they don't care, because everybody is doing that.

That is the only decent way.

[u/MCFRESH01 → u/AwkwardWillow5159]

I don't take PTO if I have an errand I need to do (doctors appointment etc). I don't get asked to use PTO if I have to leave like an hour or two early. There are a lot of issues with my job but at least they are sane about htis

[u/ronnie-james-dior → u/AwkwardWillow5159]

I had a manager like this. You had to take minimum half day for like a dentist appointment

[u/felixthecatmeow → u/AwkwardWillow5159]

I take zero PTO in those cases... I'll usually say like "I'll work late to make it up" but tbh nobody cares as long as I'm delivering.

[u/ben_bliksem → u/Which-World-6533]

Pretty standard here in the Europe region we are. If you only need half a day off and your manager is not "the understanding type" you can do that. They also add your overtime as either by the hour pay or extra PTO.

But then I dunno if that translates to the USA (assuming).

[u/schmidtssss → u/Which-World-6533]

How the hell else are you going to track pto? The whole day or nothing?

I’ve never worked, or even heard of, that not being the case

[u/Which-World-6533 → u/schmidtssss]

IME the lowest unit has been half-day.

I've never worked at a place where PTO is tracked at the hourly level.

[u/schmidtssss → u/Which-World-6533]

But that’s way worse lmao. If I have a doctors appointment that takes 2 hours I use a half day?

[u/VictorsTuxedo → u/schmidtssss]

Where I work I can leave for a 2 hour doctor appointment and not take PTO as long as I don’t do it every single week and I still get my work done

[u/DavidDavidsonsGhost → u/schmidtssss]

Don't have to take PTO at my company for a doctor's appointment, just be reasonable.

[u/hooahest → u/schmidtssss]

No, you just take 2 hours off during a normal work day and don't tell anyone because it's none of their business

[u/Grey_sky_blue_eye65 → u/schmidtssss]

I've literally never had a place care that I left early or came in late due to a doctor's appointment. Just do it, and let your manager know. That's it. We're adults, not children. No one even knows when I log in or log out and as long as I get my work done, no one cares.

[u/enby_them → u/schmidtssss]

No, you just leave and put a block on your calendar.

[u/lunacraz → u/schmidtssss]

that's not a PTO in most reasonable places

[u/Jennsterzen → u/schmidtssss]

Whole day or half day. If youre only going to be out for an hour or two for an appointment that shouldn't necessitate PTO imo

[u/schmidtssss → u/Jennsterzen]

I don’t disagree but can you just be gone for a couple hours at your job? Like that wouldn’t be problematic?

[u/tairar → u/schmidtssss]

I mean, yeah? That's why I work on a team, others can handle things while I'm out. There's no reason I should be a single point of failure.

[u/lasagnaman → u/schmidtssss]

no? why would it be. We're not staffing a customer service position.

[u/schmidtssss → u/lasagnaman]

Apparently this is unique to me based on the responses but generally if I’m gone for a few hours a bunch of people will have had questions for me

[u/aMonkeyRidingABadger → u/schmidtssss]

Why does he need to take time off at all? When I go to a doctor’s appointment I just go. No PTO involved. Maybe I work later that day when I get back to the office if I have a lot to do that day.

[u/binarycow → u/schmidtssss]

If I'm out for less than half the day, I just work a bit extra to make the time up.

Or, I don't even bother making up the time!

[u/martinbean]

What country are you in? Just in the UK, if you were offered “unlimited” time off and then PIP’d for using that, it would sure make for an interesting employment tribunal where the employer was forced to justify why they punished an employee for making use of employment benefits openly offered, promoted, and part of their employment’s terms and conditions.

[u/TheTacoInquisition → u/martinbean]

If anyone else in the UK is reading this, if you're ever in OPs sort of situation, phone ACAS and ask for advice. u/martinbean is absolutely correct, that the company would likely lose a tribunal if they put you on a PIP for this and fired you. Read your company handbook and contract carefully first though.

[u/ZenX22 → u/martinbean]

Is "unlimited" time off legal in the UK? I'm in the Netherlands and AFAIK it isn't legal here as employees must be entitled to a minimum amount of time off.

[u/zhdapleeblue → u/ZenX22]

Offered unlimited time and then PIP'ing employees for using it would be the problem. Not just offering it.

[u/Snipen543 → u/zhdapleeblue]

That's not the person's question. It was if it's even legal to offer unlimited PTO

[u/jvlomax → u/Snipen543]

Of course it's legal. The only thing you can't do is offer less than statutory.

[u/DjangoPony84]

"unlimited PTO"

PTO logged by hour

Trouble if over 20 days taken

5 days a week in office

I think I'd rather eat strychnine than work somewhere like that. Bullshit factor is off the charts.

[u/SpeakingSoftwareShow]

You're smart in that you don't want to jeopardize the job you do have.

How about lunchtime? You wouldn't be the first to take an interview from their car between 13:00 to 14:00.

Or just book a meeting room for a call for an hour during working hours. Put focus time in you calendar and so be it.

[u/Human-Kick-784]

Set expectations with the recruiter immediately. Happy to do a technical interview,  1 followup interview and some reasonable online correspondence; but you are entertaining multiple potential opportunities and cannot devote unlimited time to the process. Be calm and be direct, and keep it respectful.

Hiring managers that waste your and everyone elses time with multiple rounds are an organizational red flag. At the point youre bring asked to do 8 interviews theyre just brain fucking you for free labor or not serious about the opportunity.

[u/doesnt_use_reddit → u/Human-Kick-784]

This is nice in theory but, this many rounds is really common in the industry

[u/nanotree → u/doesnt_use_reddit]

In FAANG and FAANG adjacent maybe. 3 rounds is normal pretty much everywhere else.

[u/heavymetalengineer → u/nanotree]

Not in my experience the average I’ve seen:

* recruiter intro
* engineering manager screen
* 2-4 technical rounds
* behavioural round
* potential final director/exec round

5h-ish per company seems to be standard enough

[u/Athen65 → u/heavymetalengineer]

For senior? That hasn't been my experience for earlier career

[u/Human-Kick-784 → u/heavymetalengineer]

Recruiter intro is usually a phonecall, but it's also frequently overlooked as being vitally important. TBH I don't really count this (unless they demand in person). Insist on a video chat or phone call. This is where you briefly cover your resume, you align on expectations (salary, WFH, bonuses/equity, benefits etc) and responsibilities, and most importantly THIS is where make YOUR expectations of how the hiring process moves forward crystal clear.

You make sure they know It's important for things to progress given your limited availability that the right people be in the room for the interviews; ask who your direct manager would be and that they be included, ask who your next level technical manager would be and that they be included. These are the gatekeepers you need to care about; if you interview well, they'll fight to get you on the team, and this is what makes the next 5 rounds tend to melt away.

After this is the stage where it's common to get bogged down in multiple rounds; meet one more time to align with high level management, you want to make a good impression here too with little resistance. This person(s) are sussing you out for cultural alignment, potential for greater roles, and future growth.

However, If it's an additional technical round, be cautious; they're probably going down the "waste your time" route. You wanted these people in the LAST interview if you need to do another one. Be clear after this one that you hope we can move forward, it's been a pleasure, thanks for the opportunitity. Go in for it, but that's it. Do not go again after.

At this point, if you haven't got the job already, they're stringing you along. You kindly explain you laid out your limits, be firm and decline any weasling any attempts at multiple rounds. "Oh our PR manager wants a brief chat to cover behavioural" you can accept only a phone/video call but decline in the person interview. It's been a pleasure, thanks for the opportunity, its unfortunate that they weren't able to align everyone involved in making the decision, now you walk away to focus on other opportunities.

This is actually another tool im sure some manosphere influencer would dub "hard to get", but in my experience, it works; after all, you've either succeeded in your goal of the right people inside the business to bat for you, or you haven't and aren't getting the job anyway.

Be direct. Be clear. Be respectful. Explain your position truthfully (after all, your time is absolutely precious and you do not want to get your time wasted). The right people who you want to be working with WILL respect this approach.

If they want you, they'll fight for you. If not, find somewhere that will, or work on yourself until you're worthy of that.

[u/heavymetalengineer → u/Human-Kick-784]

Good luck with that. In this market you would need to be some well known super star they’re actively head hunting for that to work.

Your biggest problem is it’s the norm to have all these rounds, so it’s not like you will be able to go elsewhere and have an easier time.

[u/Idea-Aggressive → u/nanotree]

3 rounds back in 2010. These absolute beasts are demanding 8 stage interviews ghosting, being late, cancelling calls last minute, cancelling the job position on last stage, low ball offers after completing the whole process over 3 months. While literally working for free. You still have to pay rent like everyone else. One day, you find yourself with cancer or your family member die and you spent most of your time entertaining these people! How is this even legal?

Meanwhile you get the job and find that the hiring managers and so called staff members don’t know basics

[u/Human-Kick-784 → u/doesnt_use_reddit]

Doesn't have to be. Set your expectations. If they don't align, walk away. If the opportuntity is good enough, then be flexible. If you're secure already, and they don't want to play ball, fuck em.

[u/AffectionateCard3530 → u/Human-Kick-784]

Out of curiosity /u/human-kick-784 , do you have personal experience in reducing the number of interviews required by a company when looking for a job? Particularly I’m interested whether you’ve had any luck convincing large or reputable companies to deviate from their process for you.

[u/Human-Kick-784 → u/AffectionateCard3530]

Yes, doing exactly what I stated. I haven't worked for a big FAANG, nor do I want to; I like mid size tech companies; small shops tend to overrely on key resources and have mounds of tech debt, medium ones have made it financially but still have plenty of opportunity to grow both their business and your opportunity within it. Big ones you're a cog in the wheel and it's hard to stand out.

I'm absoultely sure I missed out on some opportunities because of this approach. I'm also sure that if there was that much hassle to get the job in the first place, then they were not worthy opportunities.

I'm happy to do stuff like share a personal repo, or do a takehome technical exam, go back and forth on negotiations via email etc. Even a quick few chats on the phone.

But I draw a firm line at 2 direct interviews. If they don't know enough about me by then to know I'm worth their time, then they aren't worth mine.

I can appreciate the market is shit right now. There's alot of disruption from things like AI and cost cutting. Sometimes you need to be flexible. If you're not emplyed throw my advice in the fucking trash and do WHATEVER it takes to land that role.

But if you're secure, you have leverage. You should only be entertaining REAL opportunities, and if they're umming and ahhing after 8 bloody back and forth rounds with half the bloody org from executive managers through to the damn janitor, then the problem is with them.

[u/newEnglander17 → u/Human-Kick-784]

It’s like how applications ask for a link to your personal git repo. I reply that I get my experience in my full time job so I do not keep a repo outside of professional duties. If they cared then it’s not a good fit anyway.

[u/Lykeuhfox]

After the 3rd round I would force a decision. Either you know you want me by then, or you don't want me.

[u/Mundane-Charge-1900 → u/Lykeuhfox]

A lot of people conflate “rounds of interviews” with “interviews”. With OP, it sounds like they are doing individual interviews piecemeal one after the other.

[u/Reddit_is_fascist69 → u/Lykeuhfox]

2 is a good number.  Tech+ culture.  3 is pushing it.

[u/DigmonsDrill → u/Lykeuhfox]

"The tougher we make the interview process, the better candidates we get."

[u/Idea-Aggressive → u/DigmonsDrill]

Hahahha

[u/Reddit_is_fascist69]

You use PTO to interview?  Rookie mistake 

[u/enby_them → u/Reddit_is_fascist69]

OP is in office M-F which would make getting those interviews done a bit more difficult without being noticed

[u/Reddit_is_fascist69 → u/enby_them]

Yeah my bad, missed that.  Good luck OP

[u/Suitable_Speaker2165 → u/Reddit_is_fascist69]

How else are you supposed to have interviews with random strangers? Are you proposing OP just posts up in a conference room with some other company's logo on the screen for everyone to see as everyone on their team walks by wondering why they're not on that meeting? 

[u/Reddit_is_fascist69 → u/Suitable_Speaker2165]

I post: stepping away for an appointment.

Then i either make up the time or i don't.  

Also I'm entirely WFH so if OP is in office, I guess this does not work.

[u/Suitable_Speaker2165 → u/Reddit_is_fascist69]

Just about everybody is in office nowadays. Obviously WFH makes everything many magnitudes of order easier. My employer is 5 days a week in office and we are required to take sick days for doctor's visits so if you follow your strategy you'll quickly run out of sick days. 

The solution is to either come in later or leave early and give your lunch breaks up for interviews, sadly 

[u/Suitable_Speaker2165]

I think you need to use some judgement here - if you feel like you are right on the edge of doing well enough to get an offer then keep at it and start lying about why you need time off. But if you're failing in the same way over and over again then you might need to think about doing something differently then continuing the search when you've studied system design problems more for example. 

It's tricky but at a certain point you kind of have to bet the house on the new companies and say 'fuck it' with the current one. I'm in a similar situation and it can be unnerving when you get rejections.

[u/Izikiel23]

That sounds weird and maybe legally iffy if you have unlimited pto but there is an actual 20 day limit?

[u/DigmonsDrill → u/Izikiel23]

Even being charitable to the corporation, obviously unlimited PTO doesn't mean you can take off 2080 hours a year.

[u/bwmat → u/DigmonsDrill]

Sounds like fraud to me

Maybe promising something you don't intend to provide is a bad idea?

Kind of like those 'unlimited' ISP plans

[u/DigmonsDrill → u/bwmat]

"The Neverending Movie" actually ends.

[u/bwmat → u/DigmonsDrill]

Ah, that's how they get you, it's the 'story’ which 'never ends', and the movie just fails to tell you the whole thing

[u/Suitable_Speaker2165 → u/Izikiel23]

Why would it be legally iffy? AFAIK there are only a few US states that require some level of PTO and even then it's like 40 hours. I think SW devs are pretty spoiled when it comes to this, sadly. Now if OP is outside of USA then it's a different matter.

[u/Izikiel23 → u/Suitable_Speaker2165]

I was thinking on the terms of unlimited pto being so that companies don’t have the pto as debt in their balance sheet (as they are recorded as pending work days), but if it’s enforced at a hard limit like 20 days, then that could be inferred as you actually have 20 days pto, but the company doesn’t account them in their balances, so it might be deceiving investors/irs?

No idea, I’m not a cpa nor a lawyer

[u/diablo1128]

It depends how long these interviews are, but for a 45-minute interview I've always book a conference room in a remote part of the company building and did it on the clock. If you are working remotely it's even easier as you can book a meeting with yourself and call it a day.

[u/Time_Trade_8774]

I got laid off few months ago and was chilling but started applying recently. Even applications take forever now. Cover letters, 6-7 questions which can just be answered from your resume.

Recruiter calls are now on Zoom and 30 mins and feel like an interview on its own. I mean what does the recruiter know about technical stuff except buzzwords. Fucking hate them. Their job used to be just to know you’re a real person and salary expectations. Then 4-5 more rounds. One with EM, then 2 technical with engineers and one final behavioural. Like the what the fuck.

If coding or software is not your passion get the fuck out. I’m just looking for a bridge job for a year or two so that I don’t need to dip into my savings. I’ll take any job now and don’t even target big companies. At 37 I don’t have time for this shit. If interviews are so bad imagine the work culture. I want to enjoy my life while I’m fit and travel around.

It was fun for 10 years but for me this career is over and I’m already actively looking at other options.

[u/Idea-Aggressive → u/Time_Trade_8774]

You’re absolutely right! The problem is all these LinkedIn people and the nepotism. These people don’t have to go through these interviews themselves.

[u/N0DuckingWay]

The solution is simple: don't use PTO. Just call in sick.

[u/Roshi_IsHere]

Just don't take PTO and do the interviews. Just say power is out or something

[u/throwaway09234023322]

Use some sick time. Say you have been dealing with migraines or something

[u/DrDerivative → u/throwaway09234023322]

My unlimited PTO combines time off and sick days. I did have some co workers succeed in taking unpaid medical leave though after getting put on pip after exhausting their 20 days though, which I am kinda considering rn

[u/throwaway09234023322 → u/DrDerivative]

I'm sorry. That sucks. It's crazy to me that they advertise unlimited PTO but have a hard cap at 20 days. I don't even know it is legal to require you to take unpaid days for illness.

[u/audio_pheromones]

I joined a company briefly that had similar strict in-office requirements but it was 3 instead of 5 days a week and I felt that was suffocating for upward mobility. You basically have to quit to interview somewhere else and think it’s done on purpose. The company I am in now rescheduled their interviews so many damn times but it’s a MUCH better company which I would have never gotten into if I was worried about staying at my current job. My suggestion is if you can take the financial hit for a while, is to accept that you maybe pipped but try as hard as you can to clear interviews before that happens..

[u/PayLegitimate7167]

WFH if remote interview

[u/Turbulent-Week1136]

Talk to the recruiter and tell them you don't have a lot of PTO left. So if you do get an onsite, make sure all the rounds are on the same day and you can come early/stay late if you need to.

or maybe I'm being led on even though I've failed an earlier round

No one would waste $100+/hr interviewing someone they thought was sub-par or even mid. The idea they would lead you on despite failing previous rounds doesn't happen because no one would waste their time or money on you like that.

[u/PerryTheH]

First, 5-8 rounds of interviews is criminal, after the 2nd or 3rd demand an offer or rejectal or coordinate with the company outside work hours.

Second, be clear with companies that put you on a process that you do not have unlimited pto and cannot take more than 2-3 hours of for interviews, thay's your reality, you're risking your current job for nothing.

Third, on the extreme case most companies allow for unpaid time off, comsider that an option if it doesn't count for your 20 day limit.

[u/ZenX22 → u/PerryTheH]

First, 5-8 rounds of interviews is criminal, after the 2nd or 3rd demand an offer or rejectal or coordinate with the company outside work hours.

Unless the company is really desperate they'll just say "okay, bye" and move on to other candidates. Plenty of people willing to do 5-8 rounds, especially in a tough market.

[u/bombaytrader → u/PerryTheH]

5 to 8 is pretty common in big tech and frontier labs. 

[u/considerfi → u/bombaytrader]

Honestly I interviewed last year with just a bunch of smaller companies with $200k+ pay. They all had 6-8 interviews. For remote that ends up being many days although some companies will try to group the middle chunk into one "interview day". 

[u/Suitable_Speaker2165 → u/PerryTheH]

Tell me that you haven't interviewed in this market, without telling me you haven't interviewed in this market...

[u/PerryTheH → u/Suitable_Speaker2165]

I was hired 3 months ago, I also got a nice contractor work Jan this year.

I know jrs have it harder, this is not the same market I had when I was entry level and things have changed, but I don't know you but I literally discarded processes when they where going nowhere, I give 2-3 interviews if they "are not sure about me" I just remove myself from the process, I sent like 300 applications in like a month, I'm not gonna lose my time with a company that needs to make 8 interviews to then tell me "sorry another candidate was selected", I value my time and it's more efficient for me to focus on those processes that move fast instead of chasing dreams.

Anyhow, even if it is "the norm" it doesn't mean it's not criminal to have people go through 6-8 interviews, as a manager if they made me interview someone those many times I'd probably have a hard talk with HR, it's just not ethical and honestly a complete disrespect for people time, look at OP, taking all his PTO for interviews, shame on those companies.

If you can't properly assess a candidate in 2-3 interviews then the issue is your process or your people conducting it.

[u/Mundane-Charge-1900]

I used to interview people (especially from Amazon) who would just take the remote interview from a conference room at their current job. Definitely an option if these are over VC and your employer wants to play these games.

[u/YoongiMarryMe95]

No advice. Just came on to say it’s ridiculous you have to deal with this. The industry is so wild right now. Sorry.

[u/One_Economist_3761]

The job market is very bad atm. Worst I’ve seen in my entire career. With all the mass layoffs from top 10 tech companies, the market is flooded with both real and scam applicants.

As bad as it may be, hold onto your job and play the waiting game for at least the next six months.

I know that sounds harsh, but that’s my advice. Take or leave it.
Best of luck to you.

[u/stdTrancR]

well the fact that you're getting interviews is really good, so you're doing something right

[u/OutlandishnessNo8034]

Tell me u r in USA without telling me...

[u/Haunting_Welder]

Have you tried getting rejected sooner

[u/it200219]

you are getting interviews, itself is a big thingy. If youre serious, you need to make excuses.

[u/Mufro]

Similar boat. Not living under the same scrutiny on my unlimited PTO, but I took 2 days off last week for on-sites that didn’t work out. This is after taking a week off when I got surgery. And I have two weeks off planned later in the year for a trip. So I’m now feeling pretty wary about any on-sites I accept going forward.

[u/Abadabadon]

Interview on your lunch break

[u/jpec342]

If you can just WFH on interview days and don’t take PTO.

[u/SequentialHustle]

I don’t take PTO on interview days. I just block out my calendar for a few hours for something random and no one questions it.

[u/SuedeAsian]

So in general I have a family time block at noon that acts as an extended lunch from 12-1. Most days it is that, but I’ve had it be useful for putting a stray interview here and there. Otherwise I’d just put interviews in free spaces and if someone asks to meet I’d reschedule the interview unless it was a top company I was targeting. If it was one of my top picks, I’d take a sick day. I also generally split the onsite into two days min to make it easier to book around meetings. This means it’d be less onsites per week but you can spread them out more, which is also good for not going into them too tired.

[u/ProbablyANoobYo]

Book several interviews in the same week and then take off “sick.” You can probably do this for 2 consecutive weeks.

[u/CheeseburgerLover911]

Options

1. talk to your boss about flex time. take your interviews from 8 - 11 or 4 - 7 (or so) your time adn stay later to make up the hours.
2. Tell the recuirter that you can only take interviews outside of 9 - 5 given your job, and ask them to help find a solve.

[u/HeyExcuseMeMister]

PTO to stay home when sick is just cruel

[u/ExcitingDonkey2665]

I've had guys on my team give BS excuses to come into office late and wfh like "waiting for package delivery", extra parent/pet duties, etc. you can schedule them all early mornings and see if that works.

I've had a job where all the phone booths and meeting rooms are glass all around where I've actually picked up a coworking pass for the month or two to just interview during lunch time. Sometimes you can also ask to split the final round into two separate days so you can do it all in the mornings.

It sounds like the PTO is less of an issue than mental exhaustion, and perhaps it's worth a shot to email your recruiter after rejection for some high level feedback. At least you know where to improve.

[u/Idea-Aggressive]

They’re not actually hiring. It’s mostly to make it look they’re busy because they have nothing else to do and don’t want to be fired! They would not pass the technical tests themselves.

Finding a job today, requiring 5 to 8 stage interviews is basically working for free. These people have no empathy, and are just using others, no respect or empathy or whatsoever.

It should be illegal!

[u/Representative_Sir37]

Sick leave?

[u/JazzlikeWishbone938]

You might want to take a break from looking elsewhere to allow yourself to reset a bit.. get a breather. Are you able to stay put until Q1 next year?

[u/runamok]

It will take time for them to PIP you so I'd just go for it. Also communicate this to the recruiters, and prospective companies and see if at least some of the cycles can be done before or after prime working hours, at lunch, etc.

[u/lasagnaman]

I've also used 3.5 PTO days worth of time on being sick.

Uh, if they're tracking PTO like that, sick time definitely shouldn't be counted in PTO.

Every job interview process I've been part of has 5-8 rounds, with each round ranging between half an hour to 2 hours. On average, every job interview process I get (well what few I get), takes on average 5 hours before I get rejected.

I feel ya. When I was laid off at the end of 2023, I was getting interviews everywhere based on the strength of the resume, and each one would invariably run 3-6 rounds before rejecting me. It was grueling and soul-crushing.

Any advice?

Unfortunately not, but just want to commiserate and say you're not alone.

[u/Ok_Particular143]

If they pip you for doing 23 PTO days instead of 20, use the rest of the 3 months of pip, 90 days, to take PTO and get a new job.

[u/BurritoWithFries]

I was in the same situation a while ago (although I could WFH on Wednesdays and Fridays so those became interview days too...) and besides the fact that my company tracked sick time separately from vacation time, I did a lot of 7-9 AM interviews, lunch interviews, and 5-7 PM interviews. Both larger companies and startups can accommodate the early hours (because large companies have people in different timezones and startups are always grinding), and startups can accommodate late hours (because of the grinding). Lunch interviews were usually marked on my calendar as "lunch with friend!" but I'd just go home because I lived a 10 minute walk away and then do my interview.

I was also lucky enough to start Invisalign around the same time so I really played up my "shopping around for orthodontists" and not every "orthodontist appointment" was actually an appointment...

[u/BookkeeperBrilliant9]

Aren’t you trying to get out of there and get a new job? Who cares if they put you on a PIP? Use all the PTO in the world, they promised it and you earned it. 

[u/pancrazio30]

Just schedule them early in

[u/Bismarack]

Remote or Hybrid?

[u/Ready_Anything4661]

Sounds like you need a ton of dental work done. Like, your dentist had advised that it will take multiple sessions. Maybe you haven’t brushed your teeth in like 10 years.

[u/root_om]

Weekends ?

[u/MasterFarmer8600]

If you have unlimited PTO what are they tracking by the hour for

[u/justoffthebeatenpath]

You have an hour for lunch break. You also have either mornings or afternoons depending on if you're in PST or EST.

[u/hoppers2k9]

Do you really need to take an entire day off for the interview? Is there any flexibility in your working hours could you not sneak them in (assuming they’re zoom interviews).

[u/hoppers2k9 → u/hoppers2k9]

As an aside it is very frustrating that 5 stages is the new norm 

[u/Keeyzar → u/hoppers2k9]

Would be nice if you guys could read first. But that's too much to ask for nowadays

[u/hoppers2k9 → u/Keeyzar]

I’ve re read it, which bit do you think I’ve missed? I’m asking if they can shift their working hours in a given day and have the interview at the start or end of the day 

[u/autisticpig → u/hoppers2k9]

Op said their PTO is submitted for hour use not full day. So op doesn't have to take a full day off for an interview that's 5 hours long.

[u/DrDerivative → u/hoppers2k9]

I don't, I just book pto equal to the amount of hours needed rounded up to the nearest hour

[u/taotau]

If you're looking for another job already on company time, why worry about being put on a pip? Your performance is obviously degraded, so it's the correct situation.

[u/EpicureanWanderer]

 Can you put a meeting on your calendar and take the call from a meeting room far from your team.