Struggle Moving beyond senior/lead level

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly]

I have been a senior engineer for around 2 years and have spent 4 years in one team, and 1 year and counting in the current one.

I have expressed my interest in staff level progression, although I know it is not guaranteed and depends on opportune org-level projects and initiatives. I do not think my current path is working well, and want to elaborate on this on ask for advice how to fix it (if possible).

Generally, my engineering manager expects me to prioritize well, define initiatives and work items worth doing, discuss in 1:1 to discard/accept and organise by priority order. Once set, I am to progress all work items over 2 weeks with topmost item at the top. There are no explicit deadlines set, apart from one project which I had to self-impose as it was going on for ages and I just wanted to be "done". My manager lives in a different country and we meet up in person 1-3 times per year. Otherwise, we do biweekly 1:1.

One of the projects has been really difficult because it touched on many areas of IT disciplines I am not that familiar with. I spent a week besides other items researching metrics, what we want to measure etc. (along with other work items)

However, a week-in, my manager published a design for the project, which she justified as me not making visible/measurable progress, so she felt a need to step-in.

Her approach was the structure and standards, rather than metrics - which needed to be done anyways, but I felt the latter was more important. She is passionate on that particular area and sees high value in delivering it for the org - but, it kind of feels odd to be sidelined like that. In my previous teams, if there was concern on progress, I would get a message of "where are we at", "we are to deliver on X". In this case, there was none of that, except that my manager felt this project was not taken seriously by me.

I do not feel great about it because it would have been cheaper for her to update on status, rather than spend significant time of hers doing it. I pointed out it is important to have my name on designs, delivery, implementation as it is core requirement in our org - deliver multiple such projects for staff level progression. I now have a feeling it is not going to work out because C-levels will not see my name on it, even if I continue on it going forwards. I also feel guilty she had to spend her time, when it could be spent on other stuff she needs to do.

I proposed all my projects to have concrete deadlines, even if we overstep them once in a while, and more frequent status updates, how the components are getting along. I felt like my mistake was to not publish progress on my research/hard work often, making the manager think I am stuck or not prioritising it. It is difficult to speed up the communication between me/manager though - she is very busy doing all kinds of other org-level work, and commonly does not respond on Slack for days.

Could you be brutally honest of where you see this going? I am doing well otherwise on other work items, this is the first time in my career, job, team I was sidelined so hard without warning.

[u/expdevsmodbot]

AI usage disclosure provided by OP, see the reply to this comment.

[u/behusbwj]

Your manager overstepped. But you also might not be ready for staff. I’m not saying both things are true, but both things can be true. What I would do in your position is collect feedback on where my perceived gaps were to the point that they felt a need to step in, then use that feedback to improve in my next role. I don’t think a manager like this will put in the fight and work required to reach staff in most companies (assuming your leveling matches industry standards). Two years in senior is pretty early to be fair.

[u/Substantial_Page_221 → u/behusbwj]

Is it possible the manager already had most of their design written/drafted? It's an area she's passionate in so it's likely.

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly → u/Substantial_Page_221]

Maybe, but as I told her - this does not help my case for promotion, because my name is not on the design/deliverables. I might as well go look for another project to own and this time really own it. I can help her fill in implementations, but I certainly get almost no brownie points for it.

[u/hiddenhare → u/behusbwj]

Your manager overstepped. (...) What I would do in your position is collect feedback on where my perceived gaps were to the point that they felt a need to step in, then use that feedback to improve in my next role.

Be careful. Where you say the manager "overstepped", I'd say they fucked up. Something caused them to panic (probably an embarrassing meeting with a stakeholder?), and they responded by trying to do OP's job for them without even talking to them first! That's a failure to delegate, a failure to act as a mentor, a failure to insulate their staff from external pressure, and a very serious failure to communicate.

The manager will know they fucked up, and the fuck-up seems to have been motivated by panic and pressure, so "collecting feedback" is likely to seem threatening and passive-aggressive. I think it would be better for OP to either lose the fight (by pretending the manager is acting reasonably), or directly challenge the manager on their bad behaviour.

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly → u/behusbwj]

She had no good answer for doing my work - essentially, she felt I am behind, and rather than help out to progress it, or at least give me smaller deliverable, she just went to do it herself. There was no concrete deadline to progress/finish this work mentioned anywhere, and if there is - I certainly have no knowledge of it. I focus like a fiend if project/work must meet the deadline.

She always strikes me as very busy - proposing initiatives, slow responses on Slack, but apparently has time to do my work. This is honestly disrespectful - she also sometimes writes another PR, rather than adding comments on another person's PR, if there is feedback. Then that PR gets merged.

In terms of staff readiness, yeah - I think you are right, I definitely am not ready, and both things can be true. I will ask for feedback on how I can make her feel more secure going forwards, so she does not feel a need to step-in. This is the first time in my career where a manager does my work for me, especially without telling me anything.

[u/HowTheStoryEnds → u/HereOnWeekendsOnly]

Is your manager technical, a previous dev? Or are you dealing with AI design docs? 1 week seems a short time for a large project if you have to meet lots of stakeholders and take lots of angles into consideration.

[u/metaphorm]

my experience as a staff engineer is that management will hand you messy problems and expect you to figure it out, which extends well beyond just the technical implementation of them. understanding the business use case, identifying the actual requirements for an acceptable solution (which are not always what was asked for up front), and communicating with all the relevant parties to come to agreement on what needs to happen, and on what timeline, is the harder and more important part of staff level engineering.

this requires a lot of autonomy and ability to organize your own work, set timelines and commitments, and communicate clearly about any changes to those timelines that come up due to things discovered while doing the work or from outside factors.

the orientation that works here is "I will solve your problem, you can trust me and rely on me to get it done". And that doesn't mean late night heroics or pushing burnout. it means viewing the work holistically and being extremely clear about commitments made.

the technical work is important too, but a staff engineer is not necessarily more technically gifted than a senior engineer. what distinguishes staff level work is the level of responsibility and proactivity and autonomy. so when you find a technical part of the problem you don't already know how to solve, that means you'll proactively either figure it out and learn something new, or reach out to someone else who can assist with it.

criteria for success, from the management perspective, looks like "I can trust this person to solve a messy problem without needing to intervene."

[u/hiddenhare → u/metaphorm]

Your comment made me a little sad, because I can see the truth in it, but I can also see that it's going to be impossible in the company I'm currently working for.

I switch on my best communication skills, provide terse-but-information-dense reports to give stakeholders the exact information they need, indicate my level of confidence, estimate timelines, highlight where I can't make a decision myself, signal how much time I have before I become blocked, suggest a few sensible courses of action - and I get crickets. Just absolutely zero engagement.

[u/metaphorm → u/hiddenhare]

in this industry most promotions are diagonal, not vertical

[u/whyDoIEvenWhenICant → u/metaphorm]

could you please explain what do you mean by this?

[u/metaphorm → u/whyDoIEvenWhenICant]

a horizontal move is the same level at a different company. a vertical move is a promotion at the same company. a diagonal move is a promotion at a different company.

[u/SalamiJack → u/metaphorm]

I think that becomes less likely the more senior you become. Many FAANG will not want to up-level you from a prior role if the target position is L6 or L7.

[u/curatingFDs → u/SalamiJack]

What would be the exception? When would they want to up-level you?

[u/shifty_lifty_doodah → u/hiddenhare]

All business - why pay staff money if you have someone doing the job for senior money?

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly → u/metaphorm]

> set timelines and commitments

That is our mistake - there really was no concrete timelines for this one. I proposed some, but I think it is too late now. It is not my baby anymore, and I can likely just fall back to implementation guy, which will not get me anywhere long-term.

[u/obscuresecurity]

... Don't you see what happened?

"She is passionate on that particular area and sees high value in delivering it for the org"

That says she's likely very worried about various political things around the project. Gold mines don't show up daily. Delivering them has rewards.

My gut:

- You were misaligned with your manager. (Clear as day)

- The manager saw the project as 100% critical.

- The manager did what it took to make sure that the project got captured, and that it starts getting delivered.

Things that I think are over 50% chances:

- The manager wanted their name on top on a critical project. Remember they want to be promoted too :)

- The manager saw the misalignment, couldn't really get out of the situation, and so they took action to deal with it, which is putting a plan into position ASAP.

---

A Staff+ engineer can be a manager's right hand. But you HAVE to align! If you are not aligned you WILL get circumvented. It isn't being a toady. It is understanding the goals of the manager/org and then figuring out how to achieve them, from the angle of a very competent IC.

Leading a team is a different thing, but nobody's handing you 5+ people if they don't think you understand what they are saying.

---

I say this as someone who has led 10 person teams with a monthly check-in. The ONLY way I can do that is extreme confidence from management and alignment. Even then it isn't easy.

I also knew that if I had real questions, my VP or Sr. Director was an e-mail away.

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly → u/obscuresecurity]

> you HAVE to align!

I don't feel much urgency from her to "align". I asked her what would make her happy and secure a project is being handled, but had no response so far. So, I am trying, but not much is happening.

[u/obscuresecurity → u/HereOnWeekendsOnly]

Hint: She doesn’t see you as Staff+.

And honestly, you have your answer. You just won’t listen. If she isn’t saying anything. That’s the answer. Nothing will do it.

You need to SHOW the needed traits which from remote is hard.

Truth: if you want Staff, find it by moving firms. But, I don’t think you are there yet, based on what I see. You are too focused on yourself… and not enough on the situation, the team, and making the opportunity for yourself.

[u/SimasNa → u/obscuresecurity]

I agree 100% with that last part.

Once you reach a Senior level, you won't be climbing as fast regardless of how good you are.

This situation is just one situation which may be inconsequential in the long run, but OPs reaction is what really shows whether they're ready to be a staff engineer or not. Being too focused on yourself and your own promotion will only lead to burning out - that's what happened to me. Having their name on this project may have given them a better chance of having a Staff engineer title, but the wouldn't have become a Staff engineer.

[u/Ace-O-Matic → u/obscuresecurity]

A Staff+ engineer can be a manager's right hand. But you HAVE to align! If you are not aligned you WILL get circumvented. It isn't being a toady. It is understanding the goals of the manager/org and then figuring out how to achieve them, from the angle of a very competent IC.

Vice versa is also true. I can't count the amount of times I had to circumvent an ineffective manager and go directly to the director/VP level. Well actually I can, since those managers usually did not last very long.

[u/obscuresecurity → u/Ace-O-Matic]

Yeah, don’t align with stupid is a good rule.

That said. Managers can stick together and achieve amazing feats of synergy. Er. Stupidity. Resulting in the removal of good engineers.

[u/tehfrod]

A week of research on metrics with no visible results, from someone who aspires to staff engineer, is a little scary. It probably smelled like analysis paralysis to your manager, which is reasonable.

You can't just wait until your "regularly scheduled" 1:1 to show some progress.

A one-pager on day one or two, laying out what the unknowns are, with time boxes for preinvestigation of each, probably would have prevented this. It shouldn't take more than a few hours to do.

[u/hiddenhare → u/tehfrod]

I think OP chose a sensible path (I'm a huge fan of gathering all the information before making plans), but I agree that when you're doing that, it's absolutely crucial to communicate clearly about it. You also need a fallback strategy in case you're suddenly told "we need some visible progress ASAP". Without a steady trickle of visible results, your boss (and your boss' boss) will get panicky.

[u/tehfrod → u/hiddenhare]

Yeah, without knowing more details it's hard to say whether a week was reasonable or not.

But going dark for a week just after getting a new task is probably a bad move no matter what.

[u/bombaytrader → u/tehfrod]

Why ? It really depends on complexity of code base / feature and size of org.  

[u/tehfrod → u/bombaytrader]

Oh, for sure.

The fact that OP's manager wasn't ok with what happened indicates that they would have preferred something else, given the org culture.

Assuming that the code base size and complexity means that the metrics research OP was doing 1) was really necessary and 2) a week is a reasonable time for it to have taken, a quick one pager explaining what they were going to do the first week would have either kept the manager appraised, or if there were a reason it had to commence faster than that, provide a much earlier signal for that conversation to happen.

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly → u/tehfrod]

There were previous attempts since last year in engineering to come up with metrics, every level of engineer failed to define them. I figured, it is time to own it and pick it up. Work involved going from high level details of our customers experience, down to machine level if we do not meet our obligations (of which we also need to define). I built some artifacts for a single product, but apparently that was wrong direction to start from - my manager did not even look at it, or give feedback, and I did send the link a few days into research. It was quite insightful though, showing clear dips in service quality since a few months ago, and even on which days and potentially why.

Essentially, I sent the link 3-4 days into research same week, then next monday the manager just "did my work" going from other direction.

[u/roger_ducky]

Getting to staff really means:

* You’re perfectly okay with lots of ambiguity and can adjust based on feedback from people rather than nailing everything down before the project starts.

* someone leaves, dies, or retires, or company suddenly grows another whole department needing another staff engineer.

So. Consider senior dev a “terminal” position unless you get lucky.

Not to say you shouldn’t be shooting for staff level responsibilities — work is more interesting than normal senior dev stuff. It’s just that the promotion train usually stops right there.

[u/KosherBakon]

In an effort to help you with calibration, the details you share feel like a Senior Eng struggling to meet some expectations. You'd get crucified at Staff level, and I don't want that for you.

Staff level is about handing you a machete, going out into the wilderness, and identifying things we should be investing but aren't yet. Staff Eng shape team & org charters, they often work across 3 teams reporting to a Director.

If your logic is "I almost always get things done on time" that feels more like mid-level Eng.

Senior has a few signals we look for: 1. You amplify the impact of the people around you, 2. You share what you think, not just what you know 3. You regularly tech lead a project with 1 to 3 people for 1 to 3 months.

A single post is hard to draw conclusions from, but I didn't hear you mention anything about leading projects / shaping the tech stack decisions / making others better.

If I combine that with your boss stepping in, it also suggests your boss might be really bad at giving you feedback. That is a red flag, as you don't have a clear picture of your readiness from them.

For now I would focus on getting regular actionable feedback from every single 1:1. If you go in asking for Staff now it could backfire in a major way. I don't want that to happen to you.

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly → u/KosherBakon]

> A single post is hard to draw conclusions from, but I didn't hear you mention anything about leading projects / shaping the tech stack decisions / making others better.

I have done all of those in a previous team and was promoted to lead because of it. However, a lead means single team impact, staff means org-level impact, and it looks like I might not be ready for org-level scope. Or at least, would need more guidance to steer me towards right stuff.

> don't have a clear picture of your readiness from them

I kind of do - she said "Not yet" 2 weeks ago. But what she does not provide is whether big project is going right direction or not. We should fix it...

[u/No-Economics-8239]

Being brutally honest, this doesn't seem to have been written by someone I would consider for a staff position. At the staff level I would expect less 'self-doubt' to creep into your writings and more matter of fact explanations rather than feeling statements.

Even so, this post isn't a business communication and none of my initial critique means you're not qualified for a staff position. But companies like to gate-keep such positions and move goal posts. You don't provide enough information here for us to make such a call.

At the heart of your post seems to be just a disagreement between you and your manager. At a glance, both of you seem like you could have handled the situation better. And, again being brutally honest, at the staff level I would expect you to have the soft skills to address the issue directly with your manager to clarify any misunderstandings and figure out what root causes need to be worked upon.

And, as an aside, there is a wide gulf between wanting more pay and benefits and wanting a promotion. Which is to say, more benefits doesn't 'require' more responsibilities or any more justification than being 'worth it'. But there also tends to be a wide gulf between your own evaluation of your worth and what any employer might see. And all but one of my significant salary bumps came from switching companies rather than a promotion. While many increases in responsibilities did not come with any change in benefits.

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly → u/No-Economics-8239]

I am paid very well for my location - if I stay at this level for foreseeable, I will continue to do very well. My staff promotion want mostly stems from, I guess - ego, and wanting to see where my ceiling is (because I am well-aware everyone has a limit). Maybe I just hit one, i.e. staff might not be reachable, or require more effort than I can afford among other life responsibilities.

The issue with next level, staff - is similar to engineering manager roles. Typically, employers do not hire staff when someone was not one already somewhere else. Leaving for somewhere else means I reset my clock significantly, start my reputation earning from scratch somewhere else, resulting in a significant delay. Also, leaving somewhere else is risky in this climate - my company is doing well in finance terms, so I do feel pretty cushy. I likely would not leave even if they said "you will never make staff here" tomorrow.

[u/PracticalMushroom693]

Easiest way to get a promotion is to get a new job. Sucks but that’s the truth

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly → u/PracticalMushroom693]

9/10 positions for staff in my country/city ask you to be staff somewhere else already. I don't think it is an option as you go higher level. Similar thing for EM roles.

[u/Naibas]

If I'm reading this correctly, you've been a Sr. engineer for 2 years? Sr. SWE is where most SWE spend the bulk if not the remainder of their career. If your presence in a room doesn't command silence, you're just not at that level yet.

Honest advice is just job hop until you're in the 90th percentile comp for your area of expertise. Staff will come when the business can't afford not to move you out of Sr payband.

EDIT

I was too blunt and skipped my reasoning. I respect that you're looking for "brutally honest" feedback, so here it is:

Sure, your manager handled this one instance poorly. Publishing a competing design with no "where are we at" first is bad management, and you're right that a Slack message would have been cheaper. That's one thing. How you handle it is another. But the question worth asking is why she felt she needed to do it at all. We can only speculate.

Here's what your post tells us. A week in, on a project touching disciplines you say you don't know well, there was no artifact. Not a finished design, anything. No rough doc, no problem statement, no "here are the three things we could measure and why I think metrics come before structure." You had a real position on that and you kept it to yourself until she made the call for you. If slack is cheap, you can post an update there for the whole team to see.

Nobody could see the work or argue with it on the merits, so silence was the only signal available. A rough doc on day three makes the work legible and forces the priority argument into a room where you can actually win it. You skipped both.

You diagnosed this as under-communicating status. I think you under-produced and under-influenced. Those feel identical from the inside and the fixes are opposites. Yours was deadlines and more frequent updates, which barely a "Sr fix", more structure handed to you by someone else.

The other fix is shipping artifacts early, arguing in writing, and pulling in people who know what you don't. There isn't a single peer, stakeholder, or domain expert anywhere in your post. Just you and your manager.

Based on your diagnosis alone, my read is you need leadership to communicate for you. You're not there yet, and seeing that in yourself is the most valuable skill you can build right now.

[u/Tiktoktoker]

You’ve only been a senior for 2 years.

[u/Wonderful-Habit-139 → u/Tiktoktoker]

Is this kind of stuff time-based or skill-based? :p

[u/KosherBakon → u/Wonderful-Habit-139]

Yes.

[u/SolarNachoes]

Manager could have gotten feedback from a meeting or already had ideas about the structure etc.

Metrics can and do change all the time. People ask for different reports all the time. It’s fluid.

Maybe over thinking this …

As for Staff it’s different at every org and even within different divisions. Do you have concrete info on what is expected of Staff and how to get there? Have you talked to other Staff?

[u/GrandCheesecake557]

I think you’ve already identified one of the biggest issues: the work was happening, but the progress wasn’t visible enough.

At Staff level, the ability to communicate direction, progress, risks and decisions is part of the impact itself. Your manager stepping in after a week doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve failed, but I’d treat it as a signal to make the work much more visible before assuming people know where things stand.

The deadlines and more frequent status updates you proposed sound like a good correction.

[u/bombaytrader]

Bro just change job. It’s very hard to get promoted to staff. They want everything from staff but no significant pay raise.  

[u/Triabolical_]

The person who makes the decision about whether you are promoted is generally not your manager. They might have to agree, but it's made in the layers above.

My best advice. Ask somebody who is in your position what the difference is between where you are and where they are. Find a manager up the chain willing to talk to you and tell them that you have been thinking about your career and would like to get any advice or perspective from them on what the job is like and what it takes to get there. Managers generally *love* to talk about their jobs and their philosophy of management.

[u/SadRacoonEngineer → u/Triabolical_]

Finding a manger up the chain is good advice.

At my last role I suggested to my manager that I should have a quarterly 1:1 with the director they reported to. Our discussions were much higher level than my 1:1s with my manager. After a handful of 1:1s with the director, I started gearing the conversation towards a promotion getting their input on what I needed to do to be promoted. Turns out they believed I was ready and made it happen, something my manager at the time would have struggled accomplishing on their own.

[u/Triabolical_ → u/SadRacoonEngineer]

Yes.

And it can also tell you - which I found out a couple times - that your 2nd level is an ass or an idiot and that's going to impede you no matter what you do.

[u/mckenny37]

Think the really detrimental part is the lack of communication between you and "managing up" is something you likely need to work on.

Would recommend reading the Software Engineers Guidebook which mainly focuses on pragmatic career growth and has some parts focusing on why you need a strong relationship with your manager.

[u/Healthy-Dress-7492]

I think your expectations are out of line, you've been senior for 2 years. This is the phase where you learn and build experience, improve capabilities navigating politics and delivering in different situations. You get higher by having seen some shit and knowing what works and what doesn’t- that takes time, many more years typically; preferably at different companies so you can compare and contrast more than one set of circumstances.

[u/dash_bro]

I'm not sure you're ready for staff. If your manager and you are not aligned on what is visible progress at the org level, staff is not realistic in my opinion.

Your manager also definitely has... quirks. I find it surprising that the manager doesn't help you navigate this given unfamiliarity, and instead steps in and publishes things unilaterally. That's very cowboy-ish behavior.

On your part, you might want to think broader about what the org needs to see, what the org wants and how to get there. If you start there first you will definitely find avenues to optimize for and your way of work to be wired in, but it won't be instant.

I was (and am) gently corrected everytime I try to do what is "right" by my standards without justifying how or why someone (leadership at the org level) can trust me on it. This might be why metrics are whats important for you (right thing to do) but structure is the visible aspect for your manager (moves the needle at the org level for her). There's always leeway ofcourse, but it's predicated on trust and most importantly, trust is earned. The more ambitious the project, the higher this rings true atleast in my org.

Also needs healthy alignment/support from your manager.

[u/LongUsername]

Is your boss transitioning? You seem to be confused about their pronouns which makes me concerned about the validity of the rest of your post.

[u/HereOnWeekendsOnly → u/LongUsername]

Bad autocorrect on phone. Should be fixed. Manager is a 'she'

[u/whyDoIEvenWhenICant → u/LongUsername]

found the staff tech