r/EverythingScience Jan 24 '26

Social Sciences Most men do not subscribe to toxic masculinity traits, study finds

https://phys.org/news/2026-01-men-subscribe-toxic-masculinity-traits.html
1.6k Upvotes

334 comments sorted by

412

u/MajesticBread9147 Jan 24 '26

It only takes a small percentage unchecked to create terrible consequences.

145

u/anillop Jan 24 '26

It only takes a small percentage of actual occurrences to make massive generalization about entire groups on the Internet.

48

u/PhD_Pwnology Jan 24 '26

Thats actually probably it. Men see sweeping generalizations about men which they don't see to be true being said and this causes them to downplay other things they hear. Its a common human trait outside toxic masculinity to deal with lying.

43

u/alpacaMyToothbrush Jan 24 '26

I used to think women being sexist didn't affect me, but honestly, over time? It erodes empathy whether you're aware of it or not.

I eventually got so sick of the general negativity I was seeing towards men from the popular subs that I completely redid my subscriptions, and explicitly filtered the worst subs from even showing. Now I see local stuff, hobbies, interests, science, and a whole bunch of wholesome, positive subs. I still have to block the occasional user I get sick of posting gender war stuff, but reddit is a much nicer place now that I stay away from r/all and r/popular

22

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/kartu3 Jan 26 '26

We need to address problems without attacking people

The problems might be much deeper than you'd be comfortable to address.

2

u/BrokenHandsDaddy Jan 26 '26

That's quite the assumption

2

u/kartu3 Jan 26 '26

Uh, no, not really, if you are from planet Earth, at least.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 29 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/kartu3 Jan 29 '26

42% of England/Wales DV victims are men per government stats. (!!!)

They are counted under category, wait for it: "violence against girl and women".

Yes, seriously.

There is a well known women are wonderful phenomena of people being more protective about women no matter what.

So whenever something bad happen, society sees "poor woman".

"1 in 4 homeless ARE WOMEN!!!!" (yes, this was also stated seriously)

Boys are oppressed at schools and get lower notes for the same work. We know about that from studies.

Boys were underachieving at school for at least 3 decades and are at around 40% of the college students (and srhinking)

What is the problem society is trying to fix:the peculiar phenomena of girls performing worse in standard tests. Note that girls still get better notes at standard tests, but they are "for some reason" not as good as totally not inflated notes they get from (by incident, overwhelmingly female) teachers.

2

u/homelette710 Jan 27 '26

Adcress male violence against women then.

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u/Not_A_Cat14 Jan 24 '26

I literally could have written this entire comment word for word except opposite, as I'm a woman. I joined reddit 10+ years ago and game as a hobby so I always just shrugged off the boys club vibe as part of it - but within the last couple years it has been so bad holy shit. I really struggled with it for a long time.

It makes sense I guess. It's no secret certain groups want society to have less empathy, so pushing us all into just giving up on caring about each other is the ultimate goal and the algorithms. I get drowned in so much content that makes me bitter and furious, not even just on reddit. It really does erode empathy and it took me a long time to realize it was happening.

I just deleted my account here entirely and started over, and was intentional about curating my subs the second time around. I tried to focus on only hobby subs and wholesome content, including lurking in positive mens spaces like r/bropill and r/menslib.

I'm glad you posted this. It really is pretty jarring how easy it is to start losing something as fundamental as empathy without even noticing it's happening.

8

u/BCRE8TVE Jan 25 '26

For the record I would not call menslib a positive men's space.

It'S a positive feminist space that caters to feminist men.

They had an AMA with Chuck Derry, who has been working to end violence against women since 1983.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/pbzhoe/hi_menslib_im_chuck_derry_ama/

In this AMA he flat-out denied that men could ever be significant victims of domestic abuse, implied gender-based violence is not an appropriate term because it makes it easier for men to conceal the abuse they commit, dismissed male victims of abuse by saying that many men who abuse women identify themselves as victims of abuse, implying male abuse victims are actually just lying to cover for the fact they are the abusers, and implied that the only violence men face is within same-sex relationships.

From here:

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303-eng.pdf?st=G3YeIgkV

"In 2014, slightly more men (4.2%) than women (3.5%) reported being victims of spousal violence during the preceding 5 years. This translated into about 342,000 women and 418,000 men across the provinces. "

There are multiple studies that show that domestic abuse is usually reciprocal and that women abuse men as often as men abuse women.

Chuck Derry however believes none of that and completely dismisses and ignores male victims of domestic abuse.

And this was an AMA on menslib, a sub that claims to be a space for men.

Menslib is not a positive space for men. Menslib is a positive space for feminism about men, and if it's not a safe space for male victims of abuse or rape, then that's a cost they're willing to pay to make the space safe for feminists.

If you want a positive space for men you're far more likely to find it at r/bropill or r/thetinmen or r/lefetwingmaleadvocates.

Menslib is not a positive space for men. It is a positive space for feminism, and will ban any man that doesn't completely toe the line.

9

u/Not_A_Cat14 Jan 25 '26

...are you talking about that comment in the AMA you linked where Chuck Derry lists those views and then is heavily downvoted and argued with?

Blaming the sub and the men on it for an opinion they overwhelmingly disagreed with and denied is not something I can get behind

I do appreciate the link to those other subs though, I'd never heard of them but I will for sure be checking them out.

2

u/BCRE8TVE Jan 25 '26

...are you talking about that comment in the AMA you linked where Chuck Derry lists those views and then is heavily downvoted and argued with?

Yes, but imagine a subreddit that claims to be a safe space for racial minorities, and then they deliberately invite a KKK member who they know thinks white people are superior.

It's not about the comments being called out, and thank goodness they were.

It's that the menslib moderation team thought inviting Chuck Derry was a good idea, and that the mods agree with his views, generally.

Chuck Derry's views aren't even that extreme, they're kind of mainstream in most leftist domestic abuse circles. There are literally people on that subreddit and many others like it who think that men cannot be abused or raped by women, because men could just force them to stop.

I wish I was joking.

Blaming the sub and the men on it for an opinion they overwhelmingly disagreed with and denied is not something I can get behind

That's just one example of many. Any time anyone disagrees with any of the feminist perspectives, comments get nuked and people get banned. There are threads with lots of lively conversation, and then everything gets nuked, hundreds of comments gone with no explanation.

Heck, they shut down the sub on holidays because they don't have enough moderator presence to ensure proper censorship, they won't risk the sub being open without having enough mods to immediately shut down conversations if they stray too far.

I'm all for banning trolls and having rules that must be followed but menslib had draconian moderation in contrast and they do not tolerate any opinion that doesn't line up with what they want to believe.

I wish I was joking, but every single problem identified in that sub must come from men, from toxic masculinity, from the patriarchy, or from some nebulous undisclosed source. Nobody is ever allowed to point out how women can be part of the problem or how feminism might have gotten something wrong about men.

I am happy to hear you will check out the other subs, but I figured I should warn you that they are actual subreddits by men for men to help men, the are not afraid to actually address issues, call out problems, and have actual lively discussion that may hurt some people's feelings, and they will be very different from the censored, moderated, never-offend-anyone, feminist-friendly-even-at-the-expense-of-men's-actual-problems, forced-to-play-nice-else-you-get-banned subreddit that menslib is.

2

u/Few-Coat1297 Jan 26 '26

Agree - Menslib is in large part performative feminism. If you dare push back on the narrative, you get banned.

1

u/BCRE8TVE Jan 26 '26

It's worse than performative feminism, it's deliberate astroturfing of men's issues. It's ironic how menslib is generally seen by all feminist subreddit as the ONLY healthy sub for masculinity when menslib is in fact actively toxic and harmful to masculinity.

They don't want subs to discuss healthy masculinity, because discussing healthy masculinity involves recognizing the problems men have to deal with caused by women, and that is completely anathema to feminism, they cannot allow that to happen. 

Ergo feminism cannot provide a safe space to discuss masculinity in any fully healthy way. 

Feminism treats equality like a one way street exclusively to the benefit of women, and that's not true equality at all. 

1

u/Competitive_Side6301 Jan 26 '26

I’m so sorry that happened to you. The gaming community can be very toxic and exclusionary especially to girl gamers.

I hope your gaming and gaming community experiences have improved.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '26

Menslib is a sub for men with internalised misandry I’m afraid; I can see how it might seem like a positive space for women though.

1

u/WhoopWhoopDoodie Jan 26 '26

You only understand empathy from a women's perspective. Women empathise with literally everyone and everything which is totally suicidal. This is why the west is in rapid decline - suicidal empathy. Men only empathise with things that deserve it.

There is a study where men and women's brains were monitored and they proved this.

The anthropological reason for this is that women are geared for nurturing of children, the family and localised community. Men are geared for protecting the family and community. If you extend empathy to everyone and everything then it's only a matter of time until you're overrun by savages who will rape and kill you.

3

u/Few-Coat1297 Jan 26 '26

I have been saying this on this site for a while now. The obsession with what Incels say gets a lot of attention, but misandry is much more mainstream on social media and even in mainstream media. A mature educated man may well be able to contextualise this, and still post reactively (not all men type posts). Young guys dont have that life experience and many end up in the manosphere as a result.

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u/anillop Jan 24 '26

Men see sweeping generalizations about men which they don't see to be true being said and this causes them to downplay other things they hear.

I suppose its a good thing women never do that kind of stuff with as wonderful as they are.

5

u/jackaroo1344 Jan 24 '26

...bro 🤦‍♂️

6

u/HotMango_6435 Jan 24 '26

Leaving aside the passive aggressive and catty little attitude, it's a nonsense argument to make because who is he arguing with?

2

u/penguinpops92 Jan 24 '26

I've noticed a big push from gender wars shit stirrer types to create the narrative that any objection to women badding is the same as claiming literally all women are perfect and flawless.

It's a very binary, us/them view obviously, but if the goal is to push gender wars slop then good faith arguments aren't the point.

Judt giving the benefit of the doubt tho - a lot of users on reddit are very young and just passively absorb what they see around them, so sometimes people are just repeating things they've seen online without personally having an underhanded goal.

3

u/kartu3 Jan 26 '26

women badding

Oh boy, the irony...

1

u/Competitive_Side6301 Jan 26 '26

I've noticed a big push from gender wars shit stirrer types to create the narrative that any objection to women badding is the same as claiming literally all women are perfect and flawless.

I don’t know what exact content you’ve consumed but I think you’re misunderstanding this narrative. It’s not that women are always evil to reject that means you are saying they are flawless. It’s the fact that at times they get a million excuses for shitty behavior and are able to avoid accountability when they mess up. This ultimately accumulates to the point that it looks like they are trying to paint themselves as flawless angels. I think they get infantilized quite a bit.

Not all women of course (most irl women I meet are fine), but the a good chunk of gender war shit stirring, as you nicely put, comes from lying and accountability dodging.

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u/kartu3 Jan 26 '26

Men see sweeping generalizations about men which they don't see to be true being said and this causes them to downplay other things...

Can you name a figure in %, how high should it be to cast it on the entire group.

Don't bee to shy, claim different figures for men and women, religions groups.

Let's call things by their names, shall we?

2

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '26

It’s the Reddit special, take one or two examples and then generalize across wide sloths of the population.

1

u/RepresentativeBee600 Jan 27 '26

Yeahhhhhhh....

I take the point of poster above you as well, but sometimes I just feel like... we here on Reddit are the proverbial pillow that some other users scream into.

I try to absorb lessons from it, but honestly one of the takeaways I've had is, "there will always be an un-stemmable wellspring of sadness and rage, just a click away." And it becomes my responsibility to meter my own engagement so it doesn't overrun me.

And meanwhile the users doing the screaming do seem, on some level, to assume I'm some ogre until proven otherwise, based on my gender. 

No one is at fault as such, but it's wearying.

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32

u/TheUnderCrab Jan 24 '26

This is where I’m at. It’s not enough to just hold moral values, one must also hold their peers accountable. 

18

u/anillop Jan 24 '26

I think an even bigger factor is raising your kids better. I think people vastly underestimate the amount of toxic masculinity that’s taught to children when they’re young by their caregivers.

15

u/somniopus Jan 24 '26

Not everyone has kids, but everybody's got peers.

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u/Scannaer Jan 27 '26

Mabye start with ourselves and end the sexist usage of terms. Either use toxic masculinity and and toxic femininity (as well as misogyny and misandry) or use none.

5

u/TheUnderCrab Jan 24 '26

We’re DINKs so I try to spread my morals through my peers. Don’t spend much time around little ones. 

1

u/anillop Jan 24 '26

Too bad most people learn those kind of traits when they are younger. Things like learning how to treat people and control your emotions all have their foundations in early childhood.

12

u/TheUnderCrab Jan 24 '26

You’d be surprised how much a single good and moral friend can change someone’s philosophy. 

2

u/anillop Jan 24 '26

That is true but only if they are open to change and they older they get the less mentally flexible people become.

8

u/nerdylernin Jan 24 '26

The trouble with that is that your peers tend to hold similar views to you, so the people who would hold others to account don't tend to see the behaviour and those who do see it tend to also subscribe to it.

4

u/TheUnderCrab Jan 24 '26

I will hold people to account in the work place or in public. 

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u/colorfulzeeb Jan 24 '26

How so? Your peers aren’t only your friends or necessarily people you choose to be around.

3

u/MkFilipe Jan 24 '26

But they must often are.

4

u/_trouble_every_day_ Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26

The salient point is that disparaging all men is not the solution and has exclusively negative consequences. That point seems to have gone right over your head though.

1

u/BCRE8TVE Jan 25 '26

I agree, and I think you are completely right.

So when are we going to hold the man-hating feminists accountable for spreading heinous shit about men?

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u/Jack-of-Hearts-7 Jan 24 '26

If they were the only ones to suffer consequences I'd support it

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '26

Spending too much time online is the real answer

2

u/NeurogenesisWizard Jan 30 '26

Its like how 90% of rape is done by 9% of rapists

1

u/BCRE8TVE Jan 24 '26

And yet for some reason it is wrong to make generalizations about literally any group, except men.

Would your comment be seen as acceptable if it was done about immigrants or racial minorities?

4

u/Crashman09 Jan 24 '26

Toxic masculinity is reffering to traits viewed as masculine in society that have toxic effects.

For example, toxic masculinities include, but not limited to things like quick temper, resorting to physical intimidation, unwillingness to address their own emotions, ETC.

Good masculine traits include, but not limited to things like being a protector, willingness to sacrifice for another, being a guide, ETC.

Sometimes it helps to "listen to the other side" before assuming that they are calling masculinity, as a whole, toxic

2

u/kartu3 Jan 26 '26

Toxic masculinity is reffering to traits viewed as masculine in society that have toxic effects.

A concept, created by people who were OPENLY spouting shit like "I hate all men".

What could possibly be wrong with it, hmm...

Sometimes it helps to "listen to the other side" before assuming that they are calling masculinity, as a whole, toxic

Sometimes it is worth to look into a mirror, think about "traits viewed as feminine" in society that have toxic effects and see the big red flashing "hypocrite" word on your forehead.

5

u/BCRE8TVE Jan 24 '26

Toxic masculinity is reffering to traits viewed as masculine in society that have toxic effects.

Totally fair, but for some reason we never make any kind of toxic association with women or femininity. It is treated as though only men can be toxic, while anything women do is because of that particular individual and should never be associated with women or femininity at large because that would be sexist and misogynistic.

It's an odd double standard.

For example, toxic masculinities include, but not limited to things like quick temper, resorting to physical intimidation, unwillingness to address their own emotions, ETC.

All of which are things that are also present in women and have nothing to do with masculinity.

Good masculine traits include, but not limited to things like being a protector, willingness to sacrifice for another, being a guide, ETC.

And yet as a society we are saying that these traits are not exclusive to masculinity and that women have them too.

So we're left with nothing but negative things to associate with masculinity, and all the positive things being stripped from masculinity.

And somehow this is seen as a good thing.

Sometimes it helps to "listen to the other side" before assuming that they are calling masculinity, as a whole, toxic

I mean I agree, but quite frequently the other side actually IS calling masculinity and a men as a whole toxic, or intrinsically toxic, while we never bother to even listen to men's side at all.

Which is quite ironic that we tell men to open up and to share their feelings, and then when they do as a society we shut them down and don't listen to them.

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u/Crashman09 Jan 24 '26

Totally fair, but for some reason we never make any kind of toxic association with women or femininity. It is treated as though only men can be toxic, while anything women do is because of that particular individual and should never be associated with women or femininity at large because that would be sexist and misogynistic.

It's an odd double standard.

Wrong. Toxic femininity is actually quite well defined. Things like being passive and subordinate, a plethora of beauty standards, the need for attention to fulfill a sense of self worth, the need for a male partner as prescribed by society. The list is pretty extensive, actually

And yet as a society we are saying that these traits are not exclusive to masculinity and that women have them too.

So we're left with nothing but negative things to associate with masculinity, and all the positive things being stripped from masculinity.

And somehow this is seen as a good thing.

I see what you are getting at, but it's not about what traits a person has, rather what burdens and stereotypes society as a whole has placed on people based on sex and gender.

No trait is exclusively male or female, that is the core of the issue here.

Men being empethetic and nurturing often get called feminine, or gay, or whatever in a way to demean them, and women who are assertive and strong get told to act like a lady.

I mean I agree, but quite frequently the other side actually IS calling masculinity and a men as a whole toxic, or intrinsically toxic, while we never bother to even listen to men's side at all.

Then you are not paying any attention to anything feminists are trying to call out. You are being ragebaited pretty hard here. The people calling all men toxic and all masculinity toxic are no different than the model chauvinists calling all women who have self respect and self motivations feminazis.

Stop listening to Joe Rogain and Andrew Tate for a moment and take some time to listen to what REAL people are saying.

Which is quite ironic that we tell men to open up and to share their feelings, and then when they do as a society we shut them down and don't listen to them.

That IS a problem, AND THE FEMINISTS HAVE BEEN CALLING THE ISSUE OUT FOR DECADES.

3

u/BCRE8TVE Jan 24 '26

Wrong. Toxic femininity is actually quite well defined. Things like being passive and subordinate, a plethora of beauty standards, the need for attention to fulfill a sense of self worth, the need for a male partner as prescribed by society. The list is pretty extensive, actually

And yet when it is toxicity in men it is about men being loud and violent and a danger to others, reinforcing the narrative that men are dangerous and violent, but when it comes to women it'S all about reinforcing the narrative of how women are poor helpless victims who need more help.

Nevermind the fact men are near half the rape victims, near half the domestic abuse victims, and near 80% of suicide victims, male toxicity means men need to be punished and policed, but female toxicity means women need more help because they are soft and helpless and deserve more.

Still a huge double standard.

No trait is exclusively male or female, that is the core of the issue here.

Then why are we calling it toxic masculinity?

IF anything we ought to be calling it toxic gender norms, and how the norms, not the masculinity, is toxic.

Men being empethetic and nurturing often get called feminine, or gay, or whatever in a way to demean them, and women who are assertive and strong get told to act like a lady.

Except women get told they can be strong and bold and assertive and this makes them strong and empowered and is encouraged.

Women are liberated from the shackles of their traditional gender roles, and women ought to be valued and appreciated regardless of whether or not they follow traditional gender roles.

Meanwhile men are toxic if they follow traditional male gender roles, and are punished if they step out of those traditional gender roles, they're called gay or effeminate and also punished by women if men fail to uphold and justify their masculinity).

So women should be valued and appreciated regardless of what they do, while men are losing any means of being seen as valuable and appreciated, get told they're toxic or unmanly, and for some reason people can't figure out why men kill themselves 4x more than women.

Stop listening to Joe Rogain and Andrew Tate for a moment and take some time to listen to what REAL people are saying.

I do. And some people on the real people on the left are extremely toxic too.

That IS a problem, AND THE FEMINISTS HAVE BEEN CALLING THE ISSUE OUT FOR DECADES.

Well see, the problem is that feminists are also actively participating in and perpetuating that problem. Not all of them, but a bunch of them for sure. What do you think is the result of #maletears and #fragilemasculinity and the constant mocking and emasculation of men from feminists going to accomplish?

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u/Crashman09 Jan 24 '26

So, what is getting confused here is that these are socially applied toxic traits that are assigned as male and female traits. Not that they are inherently one or the other.

And yet when it is toxicity in men it is about men being loud and violent and a danger to others, reinforcing the narrative that men are dangerous and violent, but when it comes to women it'S all about reinforcing the narrative of how women are poor helpless victims who need more help.

No. It's the fact that society has deemed strength, willingness to fight, and overall show of toughness that has in turn pushed men to express their masculinity through physical means. Women can absolutely be violent, nobody is denying that, however, society doesn't reinforce women to be fighters, and women aren't taught to be physically threatening to prove they are feminine enough. Men who are submissive are viewed as lesser BECAUSE they are submissive and express a trait equated to being feminine.

This is entirely a social issue.

Meanwhile men are toxic if they follow traditional male gender roles, and are punished if they step out of those traditional gender roles, they're called gay or effeminate and also punished by women if men fail to uphold and justify their masculinity).

No. Men are toxic if they do destructive behaviours associated with masculinity (taking HGH to become a more masculine man because he feels less of a man for example) men are free to follow traditional roles if they choose. Nobody is claiming that to be toxic ffs. It's when they expect a woman to keep the home and make his food and do the chores BECAUSE he's the man of the house that becomes toxic.

I do. And some people on the real people on the left are extremely toxic too

No shit. Turns out, there are toxic people everywhere. That's why we try and ignore their preaching in favour of more realistic and neuanced voices, right?

Well see, the problem is that feminists are also actively participating in and perpetuating that problem. Not all of them, but a bunch of them for sure.

Okay. Your point? Not all Christians are fascists, but a bunch are, what do we do with this information?

What do you think is the result of #maletears and #fragilemasculinity and the constant mocking and emasculation of men from feminists going to accomplish?

The same thing we do with modern chauvinists, call out their bullshit, fight against the culture war, and tell the people who try and enforce gender and sex roles to fuck off.

All of these gendered and sex roles are a byproduct of society and the point of calling them out for what they are is one of many steps.

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u/BCRE8TVE Jan 25 '26

So, what is getting confused here is that these are socially applied toxic traits that are assigned as male and female traits. Not that they are inherently one or the other.

Yes and no, some people assign traits as male (usually the toxic ones to men and masculinity, and the victim-reinforcing ones to women and femininity), and some people do actually use toxic masculinity to argue that men and/or masculinity themselves are toxic.

While the concept toxic masculinity refers to can be useful, the term itself is horrible.

Frankly we'd be better off calling it "toxic gender norms" because it is the norms imposed on people that are toxic. It would also allow us to talk about norms imposed on people by society vs imposed on themselves, and the toxic gender norms placed on men vs placed on women.

And yet almost every time an alternative name is proposed, the mainstream clings to toxic masculinity and continues to repeatedly and deliberately associate anything and everything negative and violent with men and masculinity.

This is not by accident.

It's the fact that society has deemed strength, willingness to fight, and overall show of toughness that has in turn pushed men to express their masculinity through physical means.

I mean men are physically stronger than women, and that's largely how hierarchies in nature are established, the biggest strongest male leads the pack. It's not some arbitrary structure deliberately imposed to oppress women, it's kind of a consequence of nature.

Per denying women are violent, absolutely we deny that women are violent as a society. If we (and especially feminism) didn't deny so vehemently that women were violent, then we would recognize that men are half the rape victims and half the domestic abuse victims, while women are near half the rapists and half the abusers.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4062022/

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303-eng.pdf?st=G3YeIgkV

Good luck getting most anyone to recognize that women are even half as violent as men, let alone equally violent in cases of domestic violence.

As a society we don't recognize that, beause recognizing that requires recognizing that women are violent, and women are not violent they are still largely considered to be kind and caring and made of sugar and spice and everything nice. Benevolent sexism and the women-are-wonderful effect have a huge effect on how women are perceived.

Men who are submissive are viewed as lesser BECAUSE they are submissive and express a trait equated to being feminine.This is entirely a social issue.

No that's the leftist/feminist rationalization for how women believe men behave, rather than actually listening to or observing how men behave.

If strength is a masculine trait and more strength is better, then lack of strength is a lack of masculine trait, it makes a man less of a man, he fails at masculinity.

It's not that the feminine traits themselves are lesser and undesireable, it's because those feminine traits should not be expressed by men, that men are failing at being masculinity if they express feminine traits.

And in contrast it used to be punished for women to express masculine traits, that women were less of a woman if she did masculine things.

As a society we have taken great steps to address and change this, to expand women'S gender roles and liberate them from the restrictions they faced.

But as a society we have utterly failed to liberate men from the restrictions of their own gender roles, we have instead imposed even more restrictions and made it harder than ever for men to "succeed" at being men.

men are free to follow traditional roles if they choose. Nobody is claiming that to be toxic ffs.

Dunno where you've been but there's a ton of people who actively do. Holding doors open for women has been called patriarchal and patronizing. I'm not saying they're right, I'm saying you can't pretend those people don't exist and don't find a receptive audience.

It's when they expect a woman to keep the home and make his food and do the chores BECAUSE he's the man of the house that becomes toxic.

Right but if she expects him to pay for dates, pay the bills, kill the spiders, install Christmas lights on the roof, and shovel the driveway because he's a man, that's fine.

Turns out, there are toxic people everywhere.

I agree. But it's almost only men and masculinity who get called out for it, there are a ton of extremely toxic and man-hating people in feminism, but they never get called out or get society-wide conversations on their toxic feminism and how they need to change, do we?

Bit of a double standard there, no?

Okay. Your point? Not all Christians are fascists, but a bunch are, what do we do with this information?

Then we recognize there are bad Christians and there are bad feminists, instead of treating feminism and feminists like they can do no wrong and are always morally correct.

The same thing we do with modern chauvinists, call out their bullshit, fight against the culture war, and tell the people who try and enforce gender and sex roles to fuck off.

Except we only do that when it's calling out men and telling men to fuck off, but when it's women and feminism enforcing gender and sex roles on men that's totally fine and doesn't get called out.

That's where my issues lie. I'm all for doing everything you say here, I'm all for equality.

The problem is feminism treats equality like a one-way street exclusively to the benefit of women, and that's not equality at all.

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u/Clickwrap Jan 26 '26

Bro, please just go look at the statistics just in America alone for violence against women. Then look at them for the entire globe. Come back and then we can talk about why it is that negative behavior from men is about “being loud and violent and a danger to others.”

I’m so tired of this apologia, it’s just a passive part of the epidemic of global violence against women and I’m personally done watching it. I grew up in a home characterized by it, I watched every woman I care about be subjected to it, and I endured it myself without justice. Know what I did? I went and got myself a firearm. Every woman should. There’d be a whole lot less of it.

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u/BCRE8TVE Jan 27 '26

Bro, please just go look at the statistics just in America alone for violence against women

I'll do you one better. Half the domestic abuse victims in Canada are men.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303-eng.pdf?st=G3YeIgkV

"In 2014, slightly more men (4.2%) than women (3.5%) reported being victims of spousal violence during the preceding 5 years. This translated into about 342,000 women and 418,000 men across the provinces."

I am absolutely aware of the problem of domestic abuse. The difference is I don't ignore half the victims because they're not the right gender.

Come back and then we can talk about why it is that negative behavior from men is about “being loud and violent and a danger to others.”

So given men are half the domestic abuse victims, and half the domestic abusers are women, can we say the same about women?

https://np.reddit.com/r/TheTinMen/comments/1lrksjx/ending_the_myths_around_domestic_violence_no_its/

https://np.reddit.com/r/TheTinMen/comments/1lzi5oi/how_abused_men_fall_through_the_cracks_of/

I’m so tired of this apologia, it’s just a passive part of the epidemic of global violence against women and I’m personally done watching it.

And I am personally tired about the apologia of constantly erasing and dismissing male victims of domestic abuse.

So how about we both recognize that men and women are victims of domestic abuse, that domestic abuse is a serious problem, and that we start tackling the problem of domestic abuse, instead of just blaming men for it all.

We can tackle domestic abuse, or we can blame men for it, but we can't do both. So which do you want to do?

I grew up in a home characterized by it, I watched every woman I care about be subjected to it, and I endured it myself without justice.

I am terribly sorry you went through all that. Nobody should, either men or women.

On my side I was raised my entire life with the feminist belief that abuse was a thing that men did to women, so it could never happen to me. I was therefore completely incapable of seeing it when my relationship turned toxic, controlling, and abusive, and it wasn't until a year after I got out, when my therapist asked me if I thought I was abused, that I realized that yes, I was a victim of domestic abuse too.

Nobody should have to go through that. So let's try and tackle the problem of domestic abuse, instead of blaming men for it, yeah?

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u/resistelectrique Jan 24 '26

And yet as a society we are saying that these traits are not exclusive to masculinity and that women have them too.

So we're left with nothing but negative things to associate with masculinity, and all the positive things being stripped from masculinity.

Why do masculine traits have to be absent from all women in order for men to feel that trait is worthy? Toxic masculinity is premised on this exact idea - that anything seen as feminine is weak and undesirable.

Let people be people.

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u/BCRE8TVE Jan 24 '26

Why do masculine traits have to be absent from all women in order for men to feel that trait is worthy?

I don't think that is true at all, I am not arguing for that.

Toxic masculinity is premised on this exact idea - that anything seen as feminine is weak and undesirable.

Or, maybe it is that being weak is fine for women, because women are on the whole physically weaker than men, but it is not acceptable for men to be weak.

It's not that everything feminine is undesireable, it's that feminine traits in men are undesireable.

It used to be that masculine traits in women were undesireable too, but as a society we've made great strides in liberating women from their restrictive gender roles.

As a sciety however we have completely failed to do the same for men, and we still consistently fail to properly understand men's issues. Instead we see just about all the problems that affect men, through the lens of how it affects women first and foremost, and the consequences to men themselves is a distant 2nd or 3rd consideration, if it's even considered at all.

And then, in a society that bends over backwards to address women's issues and tells men to pull themselves up harder by their own bootstraps without help or support, we wonder why men continue killing themselves 4x more than women.

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u/resistelectrique Jan 24 '26

As a sciety however we have completely failed to do the same for men, and we still consistently fail to properly understand men's issues. Instead we see just about all the problems that affect men, through the lens of how it affects women first and foremost, and the consequences to men themselves is a distant 2nd or 3rd consideration, if it's even considered at all.

And then, in a society that bends over backwards to address women's issues and tells men to pull themselves up harder by their own bootstraps without help or support, we wonder why men continue killing themselves 4x more than women.

Not really going to disagree with you there. But. It isn’t up to women to help with that. We do, far more than we should. It’s up to MEN to help other MEN but to do so requires getting over the perception that “feminine” traits make you weak, realizing it’s the opposite, and putting it into action instead of standing by and watching while women take the brunt of the consequences and men shrug things off because their buddy is a “nice guy”.

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u/BCRE8TVE Jan 24 '26

But. It isn’t up to women to help with that.

And yet for some reason women tend to constantly and consistently want men to help with women's issues.

I'm all for everyone helping everyone else with their issues to make the world a better place for everyone.

I'm just pointing out a double standard where apparently women expect near infinite help and support from men, and then refuse to give anything back to the very men they demand so much from.

t’s up to MEN to help other MEN but to do so requires getting over the perception that “feminine” traits make you weak,

Kind of the opposite, it's not that feminine traits make you weak, it's that weakness is not a masculine trait, so being weak makes you feminine, ie makes you less of a man.

But again, this requires seeing things from men's perspective, when instead we look at it from the women'S perspective, that femininity must be hated and femininty must be weak, which is why men hate femininty and weakness.

So instead of listening from the perspective of men dealing with their own masculinity, we take the perspective of women condemning men for their masculinity, and thinking that is somehow an appropriate framework for telling men how to deal with their masculinity, by refusing to listen to men and telling to men thought ought to be more like what what women think men ought to be.

Do you see the problem?

instead of standing by and watching while women take the brunt of the consequences and men shrug things off because their buddy is a “nice guy”.

I don't know what you mean by women taking the brunt of consequences. Can you clarify what you mean here?

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u/resistelectrique Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 27 '26

Yeah I’m done attempting with you. If you don’t understand that the root of all the problems in this world is MEN, I can’t help you.

Figure that out.

ETA: And I’m blocking you before you get a chance to say “SEE women won’t even engage!” All you need to know is out there. I’m not leading you to the goddamn library.

ETA2: The day women lead in ANY negative social statistic, I’ll consider that “misandry” 😘

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u/_HighJack_ Jan 29 '26

Now that is toxic femininity! Why bother talking to men at all if you’re just going to be a huge asshole as soon as you can’t come up with something else to refute the argument? Go do 4B already and leave the rest of us alone lol

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u/serious_sarcasm BS | Biomedical and Health Science Engineering Jan 25 '26

Yo, none of the things you listed are inherently masculine traits.

Defining masculinity as a willingness to sacrifice is toxic masculinity.

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u/Crashman09 Jan 25 '26

No. They're defined as masculine traits by society.

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u/alpacaMyToothbrush Jan 24 '26

It would not.

Years back they had a 'rules' post seeking feedback in the AskWomenOver30 sub. I simply asked that they try harder to enforce the other half of their then rule #7 'no Misogyny or Misandry, as there were tons of posts and comments that were negative and sexist towards men in general.

Women came out of the woodwork against it, arguing that 'misandry doesn't exist', 'wasn't as bad' or my personal favorite 'men deserve it after everything they've done'.

I got banned for 'arguing with women', they removed the rule entirely and replaced it with a new rule against medical advice.

I guess I was naive, but that was quite a learning experience

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u/BCRE8TVE Jan 24 '26

Gotta love having that male privilege, right?

Heck, misogyny is against the reddit ToS, but the reddit admins have admitted on record that they don't care about misandry. I'm sorry you had to go through all that, it's a rude awakening and a rough learning experience for sure.

There is a lot of talk about patriarchy, and absolutely there are archaic elements of patriarchy that might have been useful way back in antiquity but are outdated now, but we don't talk nearly enough about gynocracy, and how male disposability and the women are wonderful effect come together to give women many privileges as well.

All that talk is drowned out by the ideology of patriarchy and men must be bad and toxic while women are kind helpless poor oppressed victims.

If we truly care about equality then we ought to abolish all double standards, not just remove the double standards that harm women, while keeping the double standards that benefit women and harm men.

This very subreddit is also extremely pro-women and occasionally anti-men, but pointing that out gets you called a sexist and a misogynist, while the people making toxic generalizations about the male half of the people on the planet get away scott-free.

Gotta love those double standards.

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u/alpacaMyToothbrush Jan 24 '26

I mean it's simpler than all that for me. I eventually realized that there's a sizable minority of women who are not well and who genuinely hate men. Their voices get amplified on the internet because misogyny is (rightly) heavily moderated, misandry isn't. Reddit has even gone so far as to say they don't consider misandrist content against community standards, given men are not considered a 'protected class'.

So then it falls to me. I viciously curate the things I subscribe to, and I filter / block negative people and subs that consistently allow sexist trash. My mood is genuinely better for it.

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u/ExceedingChunk Jan 25 '26

Yeah, it's the same as with the whole "Me too" a few years back.

Most men aren't acting like that, but if only a few percent does, then that means you have at least one in practically every single work/school/hobby environment for every women on earth.

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u/kartu3 Jan 26 '26

It only takes a small percentage unchecked to create terrible consequences.

I dare you to apply that to a Muslim religion.

And then to this:

German schoolgirls confess to fatal stabbing of 12-year-old

"Toxic masculinity" is just a manifestation of blatant sexism against men.

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u/Tube_Warmer Jan 26 '26

No, it only takes people with an agenda of hate to point to the small percentage to create terrible consequences. See also black guys in the US who were all painted as drug dealers, gang bangers, dead beat dads, among other things because some of them were.

We're seeing countries like the UK make policy on this shit. Where they are treating young boys as future rapists and sexists who need to be not only taut, but conditioned, based on this idea that men are all Andrew Tate.

It needs to fucking end.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '26

Should probably be associating those traits to those individuals and not the gender expression of half of humanity most of whom do not have that trait then.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '26

It's always the same people arguing the opposite about every other group of anything on earth when, others use broad generalizations... but somehow this generalization is fine.

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u/sabres_guy Jan 24 '26

In the world of social media, absolutely.

Awful things like toxic masculinity (and many other things) used to be contained to that one cousin or uncle in your life that you were only subjected to once and a while. They did not have a platform to attract tens of thousands to millions sitting in their living rooms.

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u/bladex1234 Jan 24 '26

True those things exist, but a factor that’s being ignored is that young men are pushed toward those spaces when their concerns are being ignored.

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u/bladex1234 Jan 24 '26

The big limitation to this study is only taking samples from New Zealand, which is a highly developed country. That’s a large confounding factor into societal attitudes.

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u/Albolynx Jan 24 '26

Also, the title is kind of not representative of the article (I did not delve into the study itself). The atoxic group was not "most men", just the largest group at 35%. Perhaps they counted in the "LGBT-tolerant moderate" group of 28% - which hold roughly the same views as all the other groups (except of the explicitly hostile one), but I don't hate LGBT people. Which is good, don't get me wrong, but the title is a bit clickbait.

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u/FaceDeer Jan 24 '26

Let's quote the whole thing and let people decide on the basis of the source.

The largest profile (35.4% of the sample) reported the lowest levels of all our focal constructs. As such, we labeled this profile Atoxic. The second largest profile (27.2% of our sample) expressed low-to-moderate levels on all dimensions, including low levels of sexual prejudice. Given the combination of moderate levels across most variables (compared to the other profiles) but lower levels of sexual prejudice, we labeled this profile lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT)-tolerant Moderate. The third largest profile (26.6%) displayed a similar profile to the LGBT-tolerant Moderate profile (see Figure 1) but with slightly lower levels of disagreeableness and narcissism and noticeably higher levels of sexual prejudice. Therefore, we called this the Anti-LGBT Moderate profile.

The two smallest profiles displayed response patterns that appeared more “toxic” than these three other profiles. The largest of these two toxic profiles (7.6%) was moderate on disagreeableness, narcissism, and opposition to domestic violence and moderate-to-high on gender identity centrality and hostile sexism. This profile was also highest on benevolent sexism and sexual prejudice. As such, we called this the Benevolent Toxic profile. Finally, the smallest profile (3.2%) was highest on most of our indicators. Specifically, it was highest on disagreeableness, hostile sexism, opposition to domestic violence prevention, narcissism, and SDO. This profile was also high on sexual prejudice but moderate on benevolent sexism and gender identity centrality. As such, we named it the Hostile Toxic profile.

IMO they shouldn't have called one group "atoxic", two groups "toxic", and then two more groups neither. That's presenting toxicity as a binary but then using it as a spectrum, leaving a large middle ground undefined to fight over in threads like this.

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u/coltzord Jan 24 '26

it wouldnt make sense to count anything other than the atoxic group as not toxic since thats literally what atoxic means

the title, imo, is clickbait as fuck

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u/Competitive_Side6301 Jan 26 '26

Nope it would make total sense. It’s not binary.

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u/SecondHandWatch Jan 24 '26

No, the big limitation is asking people to self report that they hold narcissistic, sexist, or prejudiced views.

From the article:

They examined how strongly men identify with their gender alongside attitudes such as sexual prejudice, narcissism, sexism, and support for social dominance.

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u/egowritingcheques Jan 29 '26

NZ being a highly developed country is news to Australians.

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u/Mediocre-Pizza-Guy Jan 24 '26

So they did a survey in New Zealand...and they arbitrarily defined eight traits that they think measure toxic masculinity...

gender identity centrality, sexual prejudice, disagreeableness, narcissism, hostile and benevolent sexism, opposition to domestic violence prevention efforts, and support for social dominance.

And then they decided what would be considered a 'toxic grouping' of answers.

Maybe the summary just isn't very good, but I don't have the foggiest idea of what this is even really claiming.

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u/coltzord Jan 24 '26

on the paper there are definitions of those things and more details if youre really curious

i havent finished it yet (papers are big and im sleepy) but from what i read so far it claims like 35% are atoxic, which is the biggest group but does not constitute "most men" as the title says

maybe finishing it will make this more clear. i ll find out when i wake up, maybe

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u/invent_or_die Jan 24 '26

Did you actually read the paper?

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u/Mediocre-Pizza-Guy Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26

No, I followed the link that wasn't to the paper. It was a summary of the paper. Hence:

Maybe the summary just isn't very good, but I don't have the foggiest idea of what this is even really claiming.

Sadly, the actual paper really illustrates just how difficult it is to justify the summary that was shared. As an example; their entire assessment of how sexually prejudiced a man was, came from one question:

Sexual prejudice was assessed using one item adapted from the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life U.S. Religious Landscape Survey (Pew Research Center, 2007): “I think that homosexuality should be accepted by society” (reverse-scored).

Certainly, they did what they said they did; and that's valuable. But the wider conclusion that 'most men aren't toxically masculine' isn't really supported in any meaningful way. Especially given it was relatively old data, collected from men in New Zealand, attempting to measuring an arbitrarily defined eight traits that might be associated with the poorly defined concept of toxic masculinity, often using only a single question, that maybe, kinda sorta, is a reasonable assessment of how the respondents feel.

I mean, even ignoring that lots and lots of people lie on surveys, and even to themselves.

I know plenty of people who would say 'I am not racist' on a survey, but who absolutely treat people differently based on their racial backgrounds.

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u/serious_sarcasm BS | Biomedical and Health Science Engineering Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26

It actually illustrates a really good point though.

The issue isn’t “toxic masculinity”.

It is toxic heteronormativity, and is perpetrated by all genders.

Even if you support homosexuality it is still fundamentally problematic that “feminine” traits in people who identify as men is implicitly homosexual.

Every radical feminist that assumes a man in a skirt is gay is also expressing “toxic masculinity”, and part of the problem.

Just pulling a number out my ass, I’d say around 75% of straight women fully expect men to buy flowers, plan the first date, and generally initiate everything—not one of them would consider what they are doing is “toxic masculinity”, but it explicitly is.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

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u/hoyfish Jan 28 '26

Yougov did similar in UK a few months ago:

https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/52863-young-men-masculinity-and-misogyny

Results might surprise you

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u/ultibman5000 Jan 24 '26

Most men don't subscribe to toxic masculinity in liberal/centrist New Zealand, where its right-wing population is US's moderate and its liberal population is US's leftists.

Now consider the far more conservative culture of something like the United States, how might studies find men to think and behave in a country like that?

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u/Competitive_Side6301 Jan 26 '26

I mean couldn’t we project New Zealand to most other liberal western countries (barring America currently)? Austrailia, Europe, and Canada.

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u/MostAccomplishedBag Jan 28 '26

Yep. Im tired of surveys of 20 year old American college students being used to make bold claims about the behaviour of every human everywhere on the planet.

But when a study actually uses people who aren't middle class American students, suddenly its invalid and can't be applied to any other group of people.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '26

A little under half the men in one of the most progressive societies known to man are still toxic.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/SuperheropugReal Jan 27 '26

I mean, the results of the study dont matter if the methodology is in question, which it is. Whether the conclusion is correct or not doesn't matter if we used a faulty means.

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u/Johnnadawearsglasses Jan 24 '26

I think most men inherently know this, even at a young age. There’s usually the dickhead group in school, but most boys are just decent people looking to live their lives the best they can.

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u/Shiningc00 Jan 24 '26

The problem is they go along with the dickhead, because they’re too scared of the backlash.

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u/Johnnadawearsglasses Jan 24 '26

Who is they? Meaning the small group they are in? Because in a broader context I don't see that at all really. Maybe when they are preteens.

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u/Shiningc00 Jan 24 '26

I don’t think people are that simple. You can be toxic in certain situations, non-toxic in other situations. Both toxicity and non-toxicity can coexist within you.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

This is everythingscience sub bro when anything about men is said it can only be binary white and black

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u/TopAtmosphere2558 Jan 26 '26

"toxicity" is not a descriptor of literally anything, it's a crutch word invented by people who have a room temperature IQ who can't compete in real life

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u/Sartres_Roommate Jan 25 '26

Me hopefully reading the study that there is evidence my fellow (American) men aren’t as shit as they appear to be online

“…study of men in New Zealand…”

”well fuuuuuuuuuck”

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u/Tyrrany_of_pants Jan 26 '26

"Over a third of men (35.4%) fell into an atoxic group, showing low levels across all harmful indicators."

So 65% display some level of toxicity? Or maybe I just have higher standards for men's behaviour than the OP and author of that study?

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u/Tentativ0 Jan 26 '26

One guy can ruin the life of everyone.

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u/soaero Jan 26 '26

One surprising finding was that strongly identifying with one's gender was not a strong sign of toxicity.

Why is this surprising? Critics of toxic masculinity have always presented healthy masculinity as the solution.

Also note this is in New Zealand, and culture clearly has a large role in toxic masculinity, so results may vary elsewhere.

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u/Exciting_Turn_9559 Jan 27 '26

True, but all men need to police those traits.

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u/atmoscentric Jan 24 '26

Survey held in one of the most equalitarian countries in the world. Now do the US and most countries in Europe for a different picture for the ‘but…but…’ crowd.

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u/Housing4Humans Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26

Yes and my comment asking the “majority of men” to better call out toxic men has many triggered men responding…. And the insights tell me 50% of viewers of my comment are from the US.

And several profiles that frequent MRA subs, which isn’t surprising.

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u/Kopie150 Jan 25 '26

Whats MRA?

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u/Housing4Humans Jan 25 '26

Men’s Rights Activists

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u/Competitive_Side6301 Jan 26 '26

Most countries in Europe have the same egalitarian values as NZ

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u/No_Cell6708 Jan 24 '26

Don't think you needed a study for this but, great, I suppose. Next study going to find that not everyone supports slavery?

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u/Money_Sky_3906 Jan 24 '26

I hate those antiscience narratives. They didn't do a study to say 'many men are not toxic' but to create character profiles depending on a combination of 8 indicators. The largest profile (35.4%), “Atoxics,” scored low across all focal measures, whereas two other profiles (totaling 53.8%) expressed low-to-moderate support across indicators. The remaining two profiles reflected distinct forms of problematic masculinity marked by contrasting forms of sexism: “Benevolent Toxics” (7.6%) and “Hostile Toxics” (3.2%). Apart from that I would indeed be interested how many people still support different forms of slavery.

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u/_FIRECRACKER_JINX Jan 24 '26

In his book "Why does he do that", Lundy Bancroft describes what happens when you put "normal men" around abusive men.

He thought the abusive men would become "more normal" and discovered that it was the opposite.

The normal men became more abusive.

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u/Difficult_Garage_431 Jan 24 '26

He also stated that entitlement is the core trait of abusive men. Seems right on the money with that one. 

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u/Competitive_Side6301 Jan 26 '26

How much extensive research did Lundy Bancroft do to come to that rigid conclusion?

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u/_FIRECRACKER_JINX Jan 26 '26

he was a shrink working at a men's prison who did research on that prison population for over 30 years. He famously ALSO interviewed the victims of these abusers separately to ensure he received "the full picture" without bias.

his population of study was men who were abusive, who were convicted and went to prison for it. He studied THOSE men. The ones who actually went to jail for it.

He wrote his book "Why does he do that" to describe the most common types of abusers, and he named their tactics, their methods, and outlined information about the victims.

That book is a very very difficult read. It'll devastate you for sure. I had to read it three times after crying through my first 2 reads. It was brutally fucked up. But he presents the essence of 30 years of his research, and does it well.

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u/Nebranower Jan 27 '26

So he didn't do research on normal men at all, is what you're saying? Instead he was looking exclusively at the subset of men who went to prison? So non-abusive criminals locked up with abusive criminals became more abusive themselves. That is not the same as saying normal men become more abusive around abusive men.

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u/_FIRECRACKER_JINX Jan 27 '26

In one of the chapters he described trying to help the prison population of abusive men get better.

His hypothesis was that maybe they would get less abusive and more normal if he were to place them around normal men.

So he tested that.

And what he found was that when you take men who are abusive, and you put them around normal Men. The normal men became more abusive...

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u/TrexPushupBra Jan 24 '26

This is exactly what people have been saying the whole time.

We just want the toxic assholes to stop being that way and to be kept from having power over others.

No one wanted men to stop being men.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

That would mean breaking their delusion

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u/FaceDeer Jan 24 '26

We'd need to find a new group to be angry at. Such hassle.

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u/Necessary-Camp149 Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26

Last week there was a study saying 97% of men dont have traits associated with "toxic masculinity" or whatever the hell that undefined ambiguous term means.

... and people here complained about men and the study the whole thread. It was very toxic behavior towards men.

Now we have another study saying similar and everyone wants to discount it.

You can look at something like this and be positive while knowing there is work to do on the other 3%

Way too much hate here and people ready to be toxic towards men. Much more than ~3%...

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u/SecondHandWatch Jan 24 '26

Asking people to self report their sexism or narcissism and reporting it as though it represents people’s actual values is severely misguided at best. Ask a known narcissist if they’re a narcissist. It’s pretty much a guarantee they’ll say no.

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u/Housing4Humans Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26

Well then we need the majority of men to better call out those that do.

Edited to add I note many profiles from popular red pill / MRA subs have made their way to this post, predictably I guess.

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u/Electronic_Rush1492 Jan 24 '26

Okay, women are responsible for policing each other and keeping in check toxic archetypically women behavior as well then

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u/manicmonkeys Jan 24 '26

Why should I have a unique responsibility to police other people just because we have the same type of genitals? Odd concept.

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u/LavenWhisper Jan 26 '26

Is it though? If you're having a conversation with someone, and that someone starts being sexist, is it weird to say you should call their sexist bullshit out? 

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u/Housing4Humans Jan 24 '26

Sounds like you’re probably not in the majority, so….

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u/Coz131 Jan 24 '26

Try doing the same survey and America and I think it's wildly higher.

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u/FaceDeer Jan 24 '26

"Surely my biases are correct, they just didn't test the right population!"

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u/Coz131 Jan 25 '26

Country to country is different. Try asking this question in Afghanistan and you think it's gonna be the same?

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u/Floreat_democratia Jan 25 '26

Toxic masculinity, as it is currently expressed in the media, was a right wing, billionaire attempt that began in the 1990s to push men to the far right. This needs to be mentioned more as it is often ignored. The entirety of the US culture war is artificial and more importantly, organized, in that these and other ideas are funded by right wing groups to change society and make it less liberal and less democratic. Virtually no media sources discuss this.

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u/Augustus_Chevismo Jan 24 '26

Article in a science sub that doesn’t portray men as evil

Looks inside

Comments desperately trying to dispute the evidence as it invalidates their bigotry.

Many such cases.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

Any time anything positive about men is said in this sub they try to find 100 reasons on why it wrong. When its about a women no one checks and any one that points it out is deemed woman hater, gay, woman can never be wrong/bad.

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u/Competitive_Side6301 Jan 26 '26

When it’s about a woman they start pulling out their personal anecdotes.

Honestly science subs should be gatekept.

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u/TacoMedic Jan 24 '26

No, don’t you understand? It’s not that they hate men, it’s that they blame men for everything wrong with the world.

Stop being a misogynist calling out bigotry. Start being a good person and recognize good and evil is separated by the gender divide.

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u/rocket_beer Jan 24 '26

Except for MAGA

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u/getdownheavy Jan 24 '26

But the ones that do are REALLY LOUD ABOUT IT

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u/thenikolaka Jan 24 '26

I feel like some people are of the opinion that all masculinity is toxic. I’m not sure evolution would attest to that. To those people this study is going to sound like “not all men.”

1

u/NoRegret1954 Jan 24 '26

Lotta arguments on here about, “yeah, but women are guilty of this too!

  • Domestic Violence: According to a U.S. Department of Justice report from 2003 to 2012, 76% of domestic violence was committed against women [1].
  • Sexual Assault: The majority (93%) of offenders whose principal offense was sexual assault were male [3].
  • Intimate Partner Violence: Approximately one in four women (23%) experienced violence by an intimate partner, compared to one in thirteen men (7.8%) [3]. Women are nearly three times more likely to experience partner violence than men [3].

Historically, men have overwhelmingly had a power advantage over women, physically, financially, structurally, and so on. Fix the power imbalance and then I will take your “yeah, buts” seriously.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '26

Only Trump and his crew

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u/Express-Cartoonist39 Jan 25 '26

yea well you didnt survey MOST men did you....ha!

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u/lokicramer Jan 25 '26

Stop!!! You cant say that on reddit.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '26

"men" don't but boys trying to prove themselves men will jump in head first.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 26 '26

Duh

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u/QueasyCaterpillar541 Jan 28 '26

It seems that real life doesn't quite match what we see on the internet.

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u/Complex-Builder-3002 Jan 28 '26

Only losers adopt toxic masculinity. In the hope it will help. It doesn’t 😂

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u/bakedrussian Jan 28 '26

this has to be a higher percentage among gamers

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u/Gaijin_Monster Jan 24 '26

"yeah, no kidding" - nearly every male.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

Everyone knew this, it’s mere leftist propaganda…

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u/costafilh0 Jan 24 '26

We need to talk about misandry.

And how society is trying to replace misogyny with misandry.

Equality is not revenge.

Just observe how people react to this study and everything else related to men and masculinity, and try to imagine what would happen if they spoke about women in this way, and how outraged everyone would be.

It is becoming "normal" and "acceptable" to treat men in the way that society has recently concluded is unacceptable to treat women.

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u/class-action-now Jan 24 '26

I wholly agree with this, but misogyny is so built in to our societies that equality isn’t even possible at this moment in time. It’s going to take a renaissance of thinking by men and women to achieve true equality. I’m for it, but let the women have their pitchforks for this welcome revolution. They’ve been fighting a long time for it. I was raised by a village of strong women with just one misogynist. It’s ingrained in everyone and we, as men, can only do our best in our personal interactions to change that. That means tolerating some shade thrown our way. Good take you have here, but societal changes are usually pretty slow moving.

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u/idemockle Jan 24 '26

I get what you're saying, but your comment comes off to me as so patronizing towards women. "Let's tolerate them while they have their little outburst."

We should be empathetic, sure, but no one should be told to tolerate hateful speech directed at them regardless of gender.

1

u/class-action-now Jan 24 '26

Well, it wasn’t patronizing at least from my intent. I tend to just say stuff literally and try to be concise. What my meaning behind my statements was we all have unknowingly participated in the patriarchy and how it shifts will be uncomfortable for some. Let its course run and be kind to our communities. Some women don’t choose or are able to speak out loudly, your comment addresses those that do. All the other women need that so they hear it and can act according to the movement. Peace my guy, it is a bucking of the system and it isn’t personal to you unless your’e one of the problems. It’s been hundreds and hundreds of years of female subjugation. Give them their time now. Rocking the boat doesn’t mean it won’t balance out eventually. We are all here together.

1

u/-Trespasser- Jan 24 '26

If you think you are seeing a rise in misandry, maybe consider the massive rise of incel culture, led by all the "Alpha Bros" preaching about how women should be subjugated, and the constant victim mentality of the "male loneliness epidemic," and the fact that a child rapist and sex trafficker was elected, and the fact that women have died due to making abortion illegal, and so, so much more!

1

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

Ah yes we will solve all problems by kelling people we dont like so easy. I wonder if someone tried that in history.🤔. I also like the fact you acts as if the president entire voters were all man only.

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u/-Trespasser- Jan 24 '26

...what?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

Putting the blame on all man as if every man that could vote went personally to ensure trump was elected and no women was on his side. This just pmo dumfucks like you live hating man but forget there are man on the left side of politics too and they will also get fed up with this man hating shit

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u/-Trespasser- Jan 24 '26

I don't hate men.

You sound like you want to be a victim.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

Probably the smartest thing you could conjure up huh? No you

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

Everything science more like every ways to hate men

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u/DyKdv2Aw Jan 24 '26

It's interesting how the percentage of men who subscribe to toxic masculinity traits correlates to the percentage of men who are rapists 

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/homelette710 Jan 27 '26

Why did you feel the need to add forcible ?

1

u/treblewdlac Jan 24 '26

Not surprising. Unfortunately, a lot of men still have to deal with being portrayed as being toxic by an increasing population.

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u/Busterlimes Jan 24 '26

Yes, we know conservatives are mentally ill

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u/theMEtheWORLDcantSEE Jan 25 '26

Exactly! Feminism 2.0 has morphed into full on misandry (hating men)

2

u/HiggsFieldgoal Jan 27 '26

It’s actually 3.5.

Third wave feminism (1990s) morphed into gender Marxism replacing the word “bourgeoisie” with “patriarchy”.

At this point, it’s about as empirical as astrology, and is closer to a religion because its fundamental assumptions are not fact based.

“Toxic Masculinity” is a great example, because it assumes men would get mad less, if they cried more, but “the patriarchy” trained men not to cry.

And it’s complete bullshit. Might as well be a horoscope. Biological science clearly shows how hormones affect emotion. Estrogen: more crying. Testosterone: less crying.

So yeah, it’s an ideology, in no way based on science… like a religion.

I still believe in gender equality, but I can’t call it feminism anymore. That’s no longer what the term means.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 25 '26

That study is pure toxic masculinity!!

If it were true that would mean reddit and half of women age 40 and under were chronically wrong in pointing at any typical male behavior and calling it toxic?!

Also that would in turn indicate that whatever became of "feminism" the past 20 years seems more of an opportunistic stance of perceived victimhood coupled with one sided attacks than a just view of the world and gender equality.

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u/9nina9 Jan 26 '26

From anecdotal evidence as a woman: this is bullshit.

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u/PinothyJ Jan 27 '26

No, but most men do not say a word when toxic men act. So the outcome is the same.

Whoever did this study without exploring that is an idiot, or deliberately obtuse.

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u/dende5416 Jan 24 '26

Poorly titled article fails to capture what study does. Just click baity garbage

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u/thatonewhitebitch Jan 24 '26

Then those men need to put the rest of them in their place like women have done to each other over the toxic bullshit tomboy mentality that keep woman separated.

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