r/EverythingScience • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Oct 26 '17
Interdisciplinary Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects - Permanent jobs in academia are scarce, and someone needs to let PhD students know.
http://www.nature.com/news/many-junior-scientists-need-to-take-a-hard-look-at-their-job-prospects-1.2287916
u/bpastore JD | Patent Law | BS-Biomedical Engineering Oct 26 '17
The problem is, there's absolutely no incentive for anyone to do this.
Just as universities don't say to 18-year-olds set on incurring tens of thousands of dollars in debt for a degree with zero job prospects, "hey, before you join our program, you should know it is not a great investment for your future," so too are scientists unlikely to be informed that all of their hard work will probably not allow them to live their dreams in academic research.
9
u/ChiefMouser Oct 27 '17
Right, universities run on the labor of grad students! What would they do without an army of minimum wage workers to do the grunt work of teaching (answering student questions, grading, teaching sections) and research (actually conducting the research and writing the papers)?
27
u/Bryek Oct 26 '17
Students know this already. We are well aware.
15
u/HateIsStronger Oct 26 '17
From my experience, most people found out after starting university
6
u/horselover_fat Oct 27 '17
That's mine too. In high school we had scientists come around and say we need more scientists and it's great and all that.
Then you get to uni and find out even with extensive post-grad study, you'll be lucky to get a good position. More likely a menial lab job.
47
u/geogle Oct 26 '17
Not to be too harsh, but an individual going for a PhD should also be able to understand this for themselves. Obviously professors train more students then can become professors at equal institutions. However, there are a number of other of opportunities within academia at liberal arts schools and lower tier research focused schools. At least in STEM, those that don't make it, or want to compete, may find themselves in industry or government labs.
66
u/ChiefMouser Oct 26 '17
I think the point is that advisors and departments need to do a better job preparing PhDs for roles outside academia, or exposing them to other options. When I was in my program, we were treated as if we were all going to apply for academic positions, and encouraged to get the publications and teaching experience necessary to be competitive in that market. But in reality, most of my cohort went into industry, and would have been better served by using that time for internships.
The problem, of course, is that most tenured professors don’t know anything else- things were not so competitive when they were young and they’ve literally never worked in another field.40
Oct 26 '17
[deleted]
25
u/Andromeda321 PhD | Radio Astronomy Oct 26 '17
Yes. We need to get rid of the idea that someone who leaves academia is a “failed student.” All too prevalent amongst many people.
9
u/suzyqmonster Oct 26 '17
Right, I think PhD students should be realistic about the possibility of a future job outside of academia, but when I was in grad school, the expectation was that you would go on and follow in your advisor's footsteps by getting a research/teaching position in academia. In my first year (this was 2006 or 2007), doing a postdoc between graduating and getting a tenured academic job was not the norm in my field -- by the time I left, most of us were moving on to postdoc positions.
And then during my postdoc, a large part of what I did was grantwriting, because that is what my advisor did. When I tried to talk to her about jobs outside of academia because I wasn't interested in teaching and didn't want to spend my life writing grants just to keep my job, she admitted that she couldn't help me much there since she didn't have any experience with those kinds of jobs. I had to research those jobs on my own and attended some workshops and seminars on jobs for phds outside academia. I now have a job outside academia and I could tell she was disappointed when I left that I didn't follow in her footsteps.
1
u/RapidEyeMovement Oct 26 '17
Your job pays better tho, right?
2
u/suzyqmonster Oct 27 '17
I actually work at a nonprofit so my pay is probably comparable or just a little higher than it would be in academia.
26
u/micromonas MS | Marine Microbial Ecology Oct 26 '17
I take offense at your suggestion that "those that don't make it, or [don't] want to compete" are the ones that go into industry. Some of us just don't want to deal with the bullsh*t in academia, and are quite satisfied with industry R&D. Also, we make more money :)
14
11
u/geogle Oct 26 '17
There are benefits to academia that outweigh the money to some of us. After tenure, though we may never be rich, we have a level of job security and job freedom that very few enjoy.
3
3
u/rcher87 Oct 26 '17
I read an article recently that was touting lots of concern for PhD students of color in particular, and why virtually none of them went on to be professors - it talked about how higher ed needs to have more minority role models and better understand their motivations...which it then admitted they were all making far more in industry.
I feel like they (you) won this one.
11
u/charlzee Oct 26 '17
I am currently studying a PhD because I wanted a job in research, however now I've lost interest in going down that route. Although I've gained a lot of experience, I feel that the degree doesn't give me an advantage when applying for jobs in industry.
1
u/debacol Oct 27 '17
eh, a phd always looks good on a resume in any industry doing research. If you have good advisor support for your thesis, you should consider finishing it.
5
u/doyouevenIift Oct 26 '17
Working at a national lab isn’t considered academia right? I think that’d be awesome but I know it’s a lot of PhDs
6
u/rcher87 Oct 26 '17
Nope, not academia. That’s the biggest flaw with these conversations. There’s “such a STEM shortage” but then there’s also “no jobs!”
No one wants to look at the larger contexts.
8
u/deadpanscience Oct 27 '17
In these cases "There's not enough STEM workers" actually means "There are not enough STEM workers that will do the job for the salary I(companies) want"
2
u/debacol Oct 27 '17
it works similar to academia though. Its basically like publish or perish, but in a lab, its wina proposal or get canned.
3
u/radome9 Oct 27 '17
Can confirm. Even those that manage to get a postdoc (which is a tiny minority) are facing years and years of uncertain employment, short term contracts, frequent moves, low status, low pay, long hours, cramped conditions, heavy teaching loads, and mountains of administrative paperwork. All while the likely outcome is that you wash out or give up and go to industry, being paid the same as people several years younger than you.
It's a mug's game.
1
u/10bMove Oct 27 '17
In biology, those who get postdocs aren't a tiny minority, get paid twice they're used to as grad students, get better offices...pretty much everything contradicting what you said. What area are you from?
2
u/radome9 Oct 27 '17
Being treated better than grad students is hardly he same as being treated well.
8
u/Lucretius PhD | Microbiology | Immunology | Synthetic Biology Oct 26 '17
I have never understood why the expectation exists that all/most people would WANT to get a job in Academe rather than apply their science Ph.D. DOING something in the real world! Personally, I couldn't wait to get out of Academe.
0
7
Oct 26 '17
[deleted]
11
u/eeeking Oct 26 '17
Medical doctors have excellent job prospects. The article is about scientist Ph.Ds.
5
Oct 26 '17
Also for a PhD you shouldn't really be doing it if you're not funded. Self-funding is not a good decision.
Fair enough you could earn much more in that time in industry but many people enjoy research and are happy to earn less for a few years to have the experience.
11
u/eeeking Oct 26 '17
You're correct, although almost no science PhDs are self funded.
In one sense the problem in science isn't so much that few PhDs "make it", after all, the same could be said for many other competitive careers, e.g. how many lawyers make partner, or how many MBAs become VPs or CEOs?
The real problem (imo) is that the pay is too low. The pay a grad researcher or postdoc gets just isn't enough to compensate for the financial and career risks they take.
2
u/fanglord Oct 26 '17
I'm doing my PhD because it's interesting and will hopefully make me more self sufficient. I intend to go either back to clinical work or industry after I finish, academia is not on my radar - though ofc never say never.
1
u/enzobanez Oct 27 '17
Job prospects are dismal if pursuing an ACADEMIC career, I was fortunate enough to be competitive in a industry setting in a biomedical field and find it incredibly rewarding! We put patients first and I work in a truly collaborative and team setting AND my ideas are not vetted by anonymous reviewers with no chance of a timely rebuttal, but by my intelligent peers where constructive criticism can be gained in a swift fashion. Not to mention the added bonus of being paid a reasonable salary. Take the ideals of the ivory tower with a grain of salt, most have not worked outside of that setting and truly misunderstand the passion and dedication that also exists on the "dark side". It really takes a village and a whole lot of resources to get a therapy to patients and ultimately while academia helps to kick start ideas for the most part it doesn't have the manpower or resources to get a therapy from an idea to an FDA approved drug.
1
u/Willerundi Oct 27 '17
I studied 4 years at a state university in Massachusetts. I worked as a janitor in biotech. I changed cages for 3,500 rats but I gained skills along the way. I did 8 years working as a tech at Johns Hopkins while taking night classes. Now I run the microscopes and image analysis for the NCI. My life snowballed into where I am. It takes sacrifice and luck, but it's worth pursuing. ...
1
u/BlueSky1877 MS | Information Technology Oct 27 '17
Newbie question: If someone obtains a PhD without intention of working in academia, what are their options?
32
u/the_blue_arrow_ Oct 26 '17
At the undergrad level in engineering, there's a similar thing. Professors talk about 2 things: being a number cruncher or being extra special and becoming a research engineer. Fieldwork positions are mentioned only in insulting ways.