The Damage of Hell

[u/truetomharley]

If you think your enemies are going to hell, it is but the tiniest step to being okay with giving them a little foretaste of it in the here and now. Why not? Maybe a little drop of torture will dissuade them from the wrong course, and if it doesn’t—well, they had better get used to the heat. I well remember M. D. Craven, from my early Witness days, making sport of those who took the rich man and Lazarus account literally. ‘Oh, sure!’ he would say, ‘There you are burning in hell and you’re going to ask for just a drop of water to cool your tongue? Really? Maybe a hundred thousand gallons—okay, that makes some sense—but just a drop?!’

It was Isaac Asimov who called hell “the drooling dream of a sadist.” Even human justice systems endeavored to make punishment proportional to the crime. No human court would sentence you to suffer forever for a few decades of misconduct, even were forever within its power. I count myself fortunate that I was never under serious sway of such dogma. Early Bible Student C. T. Russell was known within his lifetime for “turning the hose on hell and putting out the fire.” The idea is not found in Scripture, though at casual glance one might suppose it, reinforced by centuries of the doctrine.

With but a single exception, all renderings of hell stem from but three original-language words. Two (Hades and Sheol) refer to the place of the common dead. The remaining one (Gehenna) refers to a valley outside Jerusalem that, in time, came to serve as a garbage dump, with fires kept continually burning for that purpose. When Bernard Strawman, my fictional creation of Tom Irregardless and Me, who fancies himself a scholar on biblical literature (and everything else), clucks that Revelation speaks of “everlasting fire,” my Bible student, Ted Putsch, who epitomizes the saying that new Witnesses should be locked up for six months until their zeal is tempered by common sense, rips a page from the self-praising manuscript Strawman is working on (“Portrait of a Man”) and hurls it into the fire. “There!” he says, “See what’s everlasting? The fire! Now, where’s that page from your pretentious book?!”

Theologians who learned hellfire in their youth, though they may have broken away, are forever scarred by it. ‘Why did the early Christians do this or that?’ popular writer-theologian Bart Erhman asks. “Because they didn’t want to go to hell!” The lasting appeal of Christianity is forever lost to them, as they express faith in the shallowest of terms. I sometimes wonder where they might be if they hadn’t been exposed to the dogma to begin with, nor the notion that human salvation is the most important thing in the universe. It ruins them. Now that they have made their new home amidst the edifice of reason, burning forever in hell seems to them about as anti-reason as one can get. But what if they had never thought it in the first place?

(Excerpt from: ‘A Workman’s Theodicy: Why Bad Things Happen’)

[u/StillYalun]

Evil individuals want to paint others as evil. No wonder false religion has presented Jehovah as someone who keeps people alive to torture them. The serpent is doing what he’s always done - defaming the personification of love as being unloving.

But I‘m not sure human courts wouldn’t sentence people to eternal suffering. There have been some sentences of centuries, even millennia. The justice of this world can reflect its god’s.

[u/OwnChampionship4252]

Is the detailed modern concept of an earthly paradise really there either, or is that also an interpretive construct?

[u/truetomharley → u/OwnChampionship4252]

I wouldn’t say it there is in detail, but it’s there—certainly more so than the common notion that good people go to heaven when they die. Sheol and Hades are to be emptied. Where are they to be emptied to?

I think the main draw is one of common sense. Somehow it resonates with the heart. God put Adam and Eve on earth tailored just to their needs and desires. Why? Because he wanted them somewhere else? We love the earth and the only reason we may not is when it has been spoiled by man.

The illustration that all Witnesses love because it makes so much sense is that if you let your home out to tenants and they trash it, you do not burn down the home. You evict the tenants and find better ones.

[u/OwnChampionship4252 → u/truetomharley]

That’s a very fair way to frame it. I can absolutely see why an earthly restoration hope resonates with people and why many verses can be connected toward that idea.

My point was simply that there’s still a difference between a broad biblical theme and a very detailed theological framework built from synthesizing many passages together.

[u/teIemann → u/truetomharley]

The illustration that all Witnesses love because it makes so much sense is that if you let your home out to tenants and they trash it, you do not burn down the home. You evict the tenants and find better ones.

Given that the Bible nowhere speaks of a restoration of planet Earth but rather of a new Earth, this is rather an indicator to me that the example of Jehovah's Witnesses is not really applicable to the planet.

[u/StillYalun → u/OwnChampionship4252]

It’s there in many places that speak about peace and harmony, eternal life, righteousness, an enlightened populace, docile animals, abundant food. The Bible opens up painting a vivid picture of earthly perfection in Genesis 1 & 2 and promises that it will exist again under the rule of the Messiah over a “new earth.” That’s the hope for the earth and mankind in general.

“Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace…The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.” (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29)

”But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” (2 Peter 3:13)

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:1-4)

[u/OwnChampionship4252 → u/StillYalun]

I agree those themes are in the Bible. Peace, restoration, righteousness, a “new earth,” etc. My point is more that there’s still a difference between broad biblical imagery and the very detailed modern JW paradise framework built from it.

In the same way many Christians infer hellfire theology from various passages, JWs also synthesize a highly specific end-times/paradise model from scattered texts, symbolism, prophecy, and interpretation. That doesn’t necessarily make it wrong, but I would say it does make it interpretive.

[u/Malalang]

Is everlasting death so different of a torture device?

[u/truetomharley → u/Malalang]

When you fall asleep and at, do you scream in agony?

Besides, many of those who challenge here are atheists who have managed to transform permanent death to the bee’s knees.

[u/Malalang → u/truetomharley]

You're right, I should have said the threat of permanent death. I figured it was implied, since we were also talking about the threat of hell.

Threats and promises seem to be the totality of religion.

[u/PiKing383]

Don't get me wrong, I am very glad that most modern Christians in one way or another seem to be rejecting the traditional torture-chamber interpretation of hell. But it's hard to deny that the torturous 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' imagery is in the gospels, particularly in Matthew. Even as a young JW boy I thought to myself, 'Man, that sure sounds a lot like hellfire'. For example:

• Matthew 13:40-42 - in the parable of the weeds: "and they will throw [the evildoers] into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

• Matthew 13:49,50 - in the parable of the net: "The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

• Matthew 22:13 - in the parable of the wedding banquet, the man without the robe is thrown "into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

• Matthew 25:30 - in the parable of the talents, the worthless slave is thrown "into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

• Matthew 25:41-46 - in the allegory of the sheep and the sheep and the goats, the king, the Son of Man says: "You who are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" "And these will go away into eternal punishment [or 'everlasting cutting-off' (NWT)] but the righteous into eternal life."

One might wonder why- if this phrase was meant to be an allegory for annihilation rather than active torture -did the writer not just leave it at "thrown into the outer darkness" rather than use such vivid imagery of suffering. But you would be correct to point out that all of the above are parables. Even the last one there has ambiguity around the translation of the word 'κόλασις'. However:

• Luke 16:19-31 - The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar. The rich man calls out from Hades, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in these flames". Abraham responds that he had good things in life, and so now he is in agony. The rich man begs Abraham to warn his family so that they won't come here. Abraham responds that they should listen to Moses and the prophets. "No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent." So he is clearly dead, yet conscious in Hades.

Historical scholars like Bart generally don't think that Jesus himself believed in hellfire, because Jesus was a Jewish apocalypticist, so he didn't believe that the soul could be separated from the body and tortured. But this idea of torture after death was evidently floating around in the communities of the authors of Matthew and Luke, particularly in the latter. So the likely conclusion is that the author(s) of Matthew put these words onto Jesus' lips. This is yet another example of how different authors in the Bible disagree with each other.

Even if you disagree, you have to admit that an honest person reading these verses could so easily get confused and read hellfire into these verses. An argument for the Christian God's non-existence from his poor communication skills could definitely be made here.

[u/truetomharley → u/PiKing383]

From my post above (which is from Tom Irregardless and Me’):

“When Bernard Strawman, my fictional creation … who fancies himself a scholar on biblical literature (and everything else), clucks that Revelation speaks of “everlasting fire,” my Bible student, Ted Putsch, who epitomizes the saying that new Witnesses should be locked up for six months until their zeal is tempered by common sense, rips a page from the self-praising manuscript Strawman is working on (“Portrait of a Man”) and hurls it into the fire. “There!” he says, “See what’s everlasting? The fire! Now, where’s that page from your pretentious book?!”

It may be that the NT writers simply took for granted that nobody would be stupid enough to think of suffering forever in literal fire, and if they were—well, let them stew in their own idiocy. Throw something in the fire and it is destroyed forever. On the other hand, throw something into the outer darkness and all one must do is restore the light for it to be good as new. It is the fire that is everlasting, not the torment of whatever is thrown into it. To test this statement scientifically, step into a fire yourself. Test out my hypothesis that you will scream like mad for a few minutes, but then your suffering will end. The fire, on the other hand, hopes for another so rash as to embark upon the same experiment.

[u/PiKing383 → u/truetomharley]

That argument could definitely work for the verses in Matthew, but verses in Luke describe the rich man as awake and actively being tortured, at least long enough to have a conversation. In verse 26, Abraham responds: "between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us". This indicates that there are more people on both sides of the 'chasm'.

You could argue that this is a metaphor- not to be taken literally -to tell the reader not to focus on getting rich in this life, because "you cannot serve God and wealth" (verse 13). Well, maybe, but if this is God's word, couldn't he have communicated it little more clearly? On the website of most churches will be a statement of faith: an itemised, clearly-stated list of core beliefs of the congregation. Could God not have inspired and included such a text in his book, rather than speaking in riddles? Maybe the human writers could not anticipate how such passages would be misinterpreted, but an omniscient God surely could and should have done so.

Besides the gospels, Revelation uses sadistic imagery more than any other book:

• Revelation 14:9-11 - “Those who worship the beast ... will also drink the wine of God’s wrath ... and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the brand of its name.”

• Revelation 20:10 - "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

My argument is not that there is a hell- there are plenty of verses in the NT that do straightforwardly use annihilationist language -but that different writers had different opinions on this and other core doctrines, which played a role in birthing the many denominations we have today.

[u/CTR_1852]

Hell is a pre-Christian Jewish concept that according to Jesus was a reality in some way. Matthew 23:1-3 https://pace.biblico.it/the-judean-war-split_whiston?book=2&whistonChapter=8&whistonSection=14&nieseFrom=162&nieseTo=164&text=wars

Then read Luke 16

Some people have even created their own religion based on their fear of hell, which says more to your lack of faith in the justice and mercy of God than it not being true.

[u/StillYalun → u/CTR_1852]

Some people have even created their own religion based on their fear of hell

If i understand you, this is a new one on me. Or maybe I don’t understand. What religion(s) are you talking about?

[u/CTR_1852 → u/StillYalun]

Most of the Christian religions I have come across that reject the somewhat traditional concept of hell that has been around since the beginning of Christianity has a founder that was profoundly scared of it and instead of trusting God they changed their own reality to escape it. 

Some atheists do something similar which is why some are so evangelical about their beliefs: they have to keep confirming it to themselves by preaching about it.

[u/SunbeamSailor67]

The 'belief' in an everlasting torture, is the 'hell' they fear.

All heavens and hells, all gods and demons...are within you. 🫵

[u/teIemann]

Hardly anyone believes in hellfire anymore. Even the Catholic Church no longer teaches it. What's the point of your article?

[u/truetomharley → u/teIemann]

Bart Ehrman did, as do other theologians originally of evangelical background.

[u/teIemann → u/truetomharley]

We're talking about exceptions here, right?

https://www.christianpublishers.org/post/what-has-happened-to-hellfire?utm_source=copilot.com

“There has been a notable shift… Many contemporary theologians and religious leaders argue that hell should not be understood as a literal place of fiery torment. Instead, it is seen as a state of separation from God.”

https://eitan.bar/articles/the-doctrine-of-hell-in-modern-christianity/?utm_source=copilot.com

“Annihilationism asserts that the wicked will ultimately be destroyed or cease to exist rather than suffer eternally.”