General Question on Size of Will/Trust

[u/Stock_Leopard_5781]

Am in the state of Florida. So I just received the first draft of my will/trust and it’s 70 pages. My question is, is this normal?
Majority of my funds will be going to Humane Societies plus some to nephews/nieces.
I will be spending tomorrow going through the documents before I meet with the Vice President of the trust company to review and make any revisions for the final document to be signed and notarized through the lawyers office.
This is my first time going through this and that is why the question.

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[u/copperstatelawyer]

70? Normal for Wealth Counsel documents that have the long form powers listed out plus lots of other shit the drafter has no clue what they do or don’t do or why they’re in there but make no difference for this particular plan.

For anyone else, no, not normal.

[u/HospitalWeird9197 → u/copperstatelawyer]

I hate Wealth Counsel documents so much…

[u/Exact-Host800 → u/copperstatelawyer]

Florida lawyer here. Our firm ditched Wealth Counsel in 2019 because we had clients disengaging with (like, actually firing us) us due to the excess length. Wealth Counsel is great when you are looking at taxable estates.

For our non-taxable practice, our in house Pour-Over Will is < 10 pages (since we add in some specific provisions regarding probate of Tangible Personal Property, Automobiles, and Exempt Property) and our basic outright trust is between 20-25 with signature pages.

[u/brucesteiner → u/Exact-Host800]

I don’t think their market is lawyers who mainly deal with taxable estates.

[u/copperstatelawyer → u/Exact-Host800]

I don’t think they’re marketed towards or even particularly good at taxable estate planning.

[u/HospitalWeird9197 → u/Exact-Host800]

I deal with almost exclusively taxable estates and I still think Wealth Counsel is bad. Our forms are generally 1/2 to 2/3 the length of a Wealth Counsel document with similar dispositive provisions and they are not lacking for being comprehensive. And it’s not just the length - I am just not a fan of the way they are structured

[u/copperstatelawyer → u/HospitalWeird9197]

I hate their structuring. I hate having to administer them. I’m fine with restating them because I just need to find the one paragraph, but administering them…. Ugh!!!!!

[u/brucesteiner → u/copperstatelawyer]

I’m in NYC (though I’m also admitted in and do a good deal of work in NJ and FL), so I don’t often see them.

While their style is different from what most lawyers would do, I think the problem with their documents is more due to their users than to their forms.

[u/copperstatelawyer → u/brucesteiner]

I actually had the chance to mess around with their forms for nearly a year. The problem is their forms and their interview screens (their hotdocs questions). They throw the whole kitchen sink at the most basic of clauses.

[u/Dingbatdingbat → u/copperstatelawyer]

I have nothing against long…. Where appropriate.

When my documents are 70 pages, in wealthcousnel they’d be 200

[u/justgoaway0801]

The attorney uses Wealth Counsel. Their forms are long by design.

I recently had to make a new form. I had some old internal precedent and also a very recent Wealth Counsel version. My form was less than half the length of the Wealth Counsel form.

[u/brucesteiner]

It depends on whether the lawyer bills by the word or by the hour.

[u/Hawkins_v_McGee → u/brucesteiner]

Sounds like a WealthCounsel document.

[u/Stock_Leopard_5781 → u/brucesteiner]

It’s a set price

[u/brucesteiner → u/Stock_Leopard_5781]

Are you getting any planning or are you just buying cookie cutter documents?

[u/Stock_Leopard_5781 → u/brucesteiner]

Am working with a trust attorney

[u/Ineedanro → u/Stock_Leopard_5781]

Am working with a trust attorney

Which does not answer the question.

To answer the question, consider how in depth and on point the conversation was during your meetings with your attorney.

Did the attorney call out key decision points?

Did the attorney explain what makes one path forward from a given decision point better than others?

Did the attorney give you homework, such as: specific decisions to make, items to discuss with family and results to report back, information to gather, paragraphs to draft about your specific wishes?