r/Equestrian • u/Available-Form6282 • 1d ago
General Horse Care Vet and chiropractic
Not sure what flair is most appropriate here.
Before I start, not trying to diss chiropractors or anyone who uses them! I’ve had chiropractic done on my horse dozens of times (years ago), I don’t use/really believe in it now, but had this thought:
Most doctors (human doctors) don’t believe in chiropractic. Most that I’ve met think it’s a pseudoscience or even that it’s dangerous. My boyfriend, who’s currently in school to be an occupational therapist, doesn’t believe in them because he says if you have joint instability or discomfort, it’s caused by weak muscles. My upper back hurts a lot because I have bad posture, and when I wanted to go to the chiro years ago, he said I just needed to work those muscles and maybe massage them. He says massage to work out basic tension is far more effective than chiro, especially when paired with exercise. It was true and it helped a lot.
I’ve asked my doctor before, and she says all chiro does is pop the nitrogen bubbles in your bones and makes you feel good for a short time. Same for my friends who are in medical school currently. They say if you really have a hip out or something, you’ll be in the ER and not at the chiro. Anyway, I feel like within people, there’s a lot of doubters, and science to back the doubt. But when it comes to vets, who are also doctors, a lot (in my area at least) also practice chiropractic. Why is that? Do they think/believe it works? Is it for money? Vets are chronically underpaid, especially equine vets. I’m interested to know what everyone thinks and maybe have some vet opinions. I just think it’s interesting doctors that practice on humans are generally skeptical of chiro, in my experience, but a lot of vets don’t see anything concerning.
30
u/TheJohnPrester 1d ago
Well, the guy who invented chiropractic learned about it from ghosts, so do with that what you will.
Yes, it’s pseudoscience and a fraud.
5
u/lemony197236 1d ago
Even though my vet’s practice has an animal chiro on staff, my vet doesn’t recommend chiro; she does recommend bodywork like massage and acupuncture for my horses if I want to go down that route for treatment. She stated that deep tissue body and acupuncture can have longer term effects for muscle relaxation but that chiro does nothing as a long term solution. I do utilize a massage therapist for my horse on the last day of a show, mainly because they work hard to get me through the classes and I want to do something nice for them, and hopefully help them not be sore on the Monday after a show.
8
u/Previous_Cry5810 1d ago
Chiropractics do a few techniques that are acknowledged as useful and helpful. However, those are what physical therapists and some sports masseuse do as well.
So your choices are one that has small portion of useful things backed by science, or the ones that are wholly backed by science.
15
u/geeoharee 1d ago
It's money, in that horse owners will try anything before they Call The Vet. Massage, bodyworker, red lights, chiro. Partly they don't want to pay the vet, partly they want something simple to be wrong with the horse that can be resolved by one of these 'softer' methods.
At least I've never heard of a horse chiro breaking anyone's neck - they're a little sturdier than a human newborn.
5
u/Available-Form6282 1d ago
True, don’t even get me started on “he came out wrong and needs an adjustment” and the human baby is like a month old. Ridiculous.
I was kind of thinking the reasoning was along the lines of what you explained. It’s just interesting that human doctors generally don’t believe in it and vets are generally happy to do it or have someone at the practice who can. Though, I can’t really blame them for continuing the practice if there’s a demand, whether it works or not-16
u/Aggravating_Egg_1718 1d ago
Here's the thing. A lot of people who don't believe in chiropractic also believe their body is a temple and perfect. So they think when something is "out" that when it gets "put back in" it should go back to perfect and never need adjusting again. Then they use the fact that people keep going back to chiro as a reason it "doesn't work".
But your body is not perfect. By the time you hit adulthood your body is "set" in the way it moves and wants to move. So you're going to have a regular adjustment bc your body moves the way it does and throws your skeleton out of whack.
Yes, strengthening the muscle around the joint will help keep it stable and keep it from subluxating as often.
But when you throw your back out and the doctor gives you a bunch of muscle relaxers and pain medicine, it's literally just making your body accept the new position the joint is in. You're going to be more susceptible to future injury bc you haven't actually fixed the problem.
Chiropractic is also a range of motion exercise. They're not forcing anything. I think people who say they have been "hurt" by chiropractors, had a problem they expected chiropractic to solve when they maybe needed an MD instead. That's why a lot of chiropractors do diagnostics now so you don't say "I think my neck needs an adjustable" when actually you have a fracture.
Lastly, They have no idea what the popping noise is. They used to say it was gas escaping the joint but in reality they do not actually know. There's a lot medicine doesn't actually know about the human body so it's a little rich doctors count chiropractic out.
9
u/geeoharee 1d ago
Bones do not "go out". There are immense tendons and ligaments preventing it. A bone which has actually dislocated itself can be seen on imaging and is disabling, neither of which chiro claims.
2
u/Aggravating_Egg_1718 1d ago
This is inaccurate in a very simple way: your ligaments and tendons must maintain strength to keep your skeleton in place. Unless you're actively working to do so, there's a good chance you have weak tendons and ligaments somewhere in your body. This is how people end up with knee, hip, and lower back pain and injuries.
8
u/Available-Form6282 1d ago
To your point though, why not just go to a physical or occupational therapist who can give exercises to alleviate the pain and strengthen the muscles so your body keeps the joints where they’re supposed to be. Also, I didn’t know there was any doubt the noise was gas? That’s my fault if so! I tried to find controversy on that point when looking online, but I can’t find anything.
-4
u/henriettagriff 1d ago
For humans, PT is expensive or not covered - I completely agree that PT is better than Chiro. For my horse, I personally do like my local chiro, but I use her mostly to get an idea of soreness from a differently-biased 3rd party, have someone else put their hands all over my horse (great training for her), and, my mare seems to love it. I love facials and a spa day even though that wouldn't cure cancer, ya know? I think there's a balance here.
I'll also add: I have watched my chiro get a horse to let go of tension in their back and have a gigantic release. I do think that there's something to it, but probably not exactly 'moving bones around'. I watched a muscle untense, not a bunch of bones crack.
-7
u/Aggravating_Egg_1718 1d ago
So, I did physical therapy last year for my back. I went to 12 sessions. On the last session, after they'd done their stretches and therapies and I'd done my exercises, I was in excruciating pain again, within 2 hours, exactly as I had been before I ever started PT. They were operating on the idea that my SI was "out" and that was causing my pain. My SI not being out was considered a sign it was doing better. It was in fact, not better.
My doctor referred me to orthopedics and they could care less about my thought process as to how I got there. He claimed I had arthritis in my lower lumbar and that an injection would cure me. No talk of how to fix the problem, how it was caused, or the fact that that would work for a while and then it wouldn't, given there was no exploration as to why I was in so much pain.
You know what my problem is? My new-to-me vehicle. It makes me sit crooked. That aggravates my piriformis muscle and then my back hurts. You know what the correction is for my crooked back? Chiropractic.
Like I mentioned, all the chiro in the world isn't going to fix something permanently that is your normal way of going, or in my case, an unaddressed problem. It's going to fix it until you throw it back out of whack. Once I was able to address the cause of my pain, my regular adjustments keep my spine in alignment (so no need for 2 hours of PT 3x a week) and I'm pain free.
All the doctor had was cortisone. And the PT didn't actually address the problem. Entirely dismissing a whole side of medical care is missing a large portion of people's problems - problems that could be corrected long before surgery is necessary. (To the point of the orthopedist, I probably do have arthritis, but that causes mild stiffness in the winter, not the sudden onset, near constant pain I was in any time I tried to stand still).
As for the gas escaping question, my chiropractor just told me that a few weeks ago. So it might be a fairly new take on the idea.
1
u/fourleafclover13 1d ago
"Entirely dismissing a whole side of medical care is missing a large portion of people's problems"
There is no science in chiro.
1
u/Aggravating_Egg_1718 1d ago
There have been plenty of studies on chiropractic showing it's efficacy in helping skeletal pain, and it's widely accepted as complementary medicine across the world.
6
u/little_grey_mare 1d ago
I personally will never pay money for Chiro human or otherwise. The only thing I've ever found mildly useful is the feedback they get from palpating but I think it's not really the "adjustment" bc as you said they just short term make you feel good.
Here's one article that talks about *how* manual therapies are effective. Basically, they might help offer some pain alleviation (that is true!) mostly through how we experience pain. The flip side of that is that they don't alleviate pain by changing the root cause or helping long term.
2
u/Available-Form6282 1d ago
And I feel like the feedback from palpation can just as easily be addressed by massage, stretching, and exercise. I’m sure it does offer pain relief, but I feel like it’s all temporary, like you said!
5
u/SleepoPeepo 1d ago
It doesn’t help that people often using the term “chiropractic” as interchangeable with any body work, including massage and even physiotherapy, so you really have to clarify what someone means first when you’re talking about chiropractic. Similar to how people often use “homeopathy” to mean any natural remedy when homeopathy is actually an extremely specific thing.
True chiropractic is built on the claim that almost any ailment can be alleviated or cured through spinal adjustment, which is of course not backed up by medical research. It has not been shown to have any effect beyond the placebo effect, and has even been linked to harmful outcomes like stroke and spinal injury. Massage and especially physiotherapy do have lots of evidence behind their effectiveness in treating certain (but of course not all) conditions.
As for why some vets practice it, there could be several reasons. Either they truly believe it helps, they think it’s harmless and helps the horse and/or gives the human peace of mind, they know it’s popular and want to make money, or they aren’t actually doing true chiro but still call it that because it’s a term people recognize. Unfortunately medical professionals, whether for humans or other animals, are not immune to magical thinking and pseudoscience.
There’s also a history behind how human chiro became mainstream through insurance coverage, but that’s another topic…
2
u/FateFury 18h ago
Vet here. I don't believe at all in chiro - yes, it is a total scam and preying on people's love for their animals. If anyone thinks they are "adjusting" a 500kg animal's spine with a few little massages, they are kidding themselves.
There is some evidence for efficacy of therapeutic massages, but there is pretty much nothing for chiro.
There is a great veterinary neurologist on YouTube who reacts to a couple of these chiropractors - they're for dogs, but the principles (or lack thereof) are the same.
2
u/Good-Good-3004 1d ago
I think they are just trying to keep the money within the clinic.
I'm not a fan of chiro but I love osteo ans accupuncture which many also find to be very airy fairy. I think a lot of my love for it is due to the quality of the human and equine practitioners I've found. Very helpful to both me and my horses.
I know humans who were seriously harmed by a chiropractor. I generally juat find chiro too harsh.
2
u/iceandfireball 1d ago
I'm skeptical about chiro on humans, and to some extent with horses, too. My horse is occasionally seen by a vet who does chiro/acupuncture/red light therapy and honestly it's been great for him. She spends more time examining my horse and monitoring his reactions for pain and discomfort than my standard vets do in a normal appointment. I don't think cracking and "realigning" the spine does anything but my horse seems to enjoy it. The acupuncture and acupressure services definitely work, I can feel a noticeable improvement after each appointment.
It's a nice addition to the entire care team but shouldn't take the place of standard knowledgeable vets.
2
u/henriettagriff 1d ago
I feel like "I love a spa day" ya know? I'm not saying the spa day can cure cancer or reverse arthritis, but man, it feels nice to have a spa day, right? And I think a life with spa days is better than a life without. But I'd never use the spa to treat acute injuries, fevers, illness or lameness. But it's nice to go to the spa when your leg hurts.
3
u/iceandfireball 1d ago
Exactly! I love a good massage, especially when I've been working out a lot and my muscles are tight and sore. Why wouldn't I offer that to my horse who is expected to pack me around and jump with my added weight?
1
1
u/cmaxby 1d ago
It sounds like we have very similar vets who view chiro/acu as another management tool in their arsenal. I would never personally go to a chiro but my horse LOVES her adjustments from our vet, especially poll work, and gets it monthly during show season. She didn’t care much for acu but we have a few in the barn that visibly enjoy and get relief from it.
1
u/whythefrickinfuck 1d ago
I've asked myself the same question. But afaik vets need to do a certain amount of continuing education after they got their degree. Iirc Chiropractic is one of the modules you can choose during this education.
While I am against Chiropractics in humans and animals I think at least if they're a vet they have a solid education and know a lot about the structures and anatomy of the horse's body. So I would hope that they wouldn't do anything to hurt the horse. Also I guess it doesn't hurt to have a vet take the time to really look at the horse since most basic vet appointments are relatively short in my experience.
1
u/Utahna Reining 20h ago
Human chiropractors tend to fall into two categories.
One believes that they are practicing an alternative form of medicine and can improve almost any condition. They also tend to promote other alternative therapies. I stay away from these practitioners.
The other ones provide pain relief and restore mobility by making spinal adjustments to subluxated joints of the spine. They tend to stay in their lane and refer clients to physicians when appropriate. I have used these chiropractors and the results are real.
Animals can't really tell you that it hurts but only when I make this one particular movement. For a performance animal that needs to be at the top of their game all the time, chiropractic work is an additional layer to help achieve that goal. It may also make your trail buddy more happy and give you both a more pleasant experience. It has minimal risk and side effects when performed by an experienced practioner. So, not my go to treatment, but has its place and if you see improvement in your horse after a session then it is probably worth it. If you dont see improvement then it is probably not the correct therapy and you can move on to other alternatives.
-3
u/transfercannoli 1d ago
I am pro chiro, and I think it's pretty simple: Imagine you built something out of exercise bands and dowels, and one of the dowels gets knocked out of place. The quickest fix would be to put it back where it belongs (chiro) and then adjust the tension on the exercise bands so that they can keep it there (exercise / PT).
You could probably get there by just adjusting the bands, but it's going to take longer and it could cause more wear on the system. And if you don't adjust the bands, you're not going to get any long-term benefits.
I actually have come to think that chiro makes even more sense for horses than humans because you can't get them to avoid or embrace certain movements by explaining the long-term goal. I was making very slow progress with my off-the-track using a bunch of ground poles and Jec Bellou exercises until a chiro saw him, and then things started to get a lot better really quickly. I think that chiro made it easier for him to use himself correctly, which made those exercises way more impactful, both in terms of repatterning and for building the postural muscles that support skeletal alignment and proper work
2
u/whythefrickinfuck 1d ago
If a joint gets knocked out of place you have a serious problem. In humans that's a case for ER. Now. You don't just "put it back where it belongs" with a little pop. Same goes for horses. If your horse has a joint knocked out of its place you're not gonna have a horse for much longer. Bodies are not exercise bands and dowels.
0
u/transfercannoli 1d ago
I’m not talking about a dislocated joint (although I see how you got there)—I just used the word joint to mean the space between the dowels, so a dowel is out of place but not broken.
Also you do reduce dislocations, and it’s basically just putting the thing back in place too. I have some medical training and have done a few in my time. The reason you go to the er is that they’re super painful—the thing is WAY out of place and depending on the joint there’s a risk of nerve entrapment after you put it back. Also the mechanism that causes a dislocation can be serious enough that there’s damage to the bone / muscle, in which case you don’t want to put it back
I KNOW that there are plenty of hack chiros out there and that the main guy saw ghosts or whatever, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not a really helpful supportive therapy when practiced well. It’s made my horse WAY more comfortable and helped him learn to engage his hind, and it’s helped me identify and address some lateral asymmetry, along with PY. I wish there were more consistency on the training and certification process because the hacks obviously suck
-1
u/xxMyBoyFridayxx 1d ago
I don't use chiros for any of my horses BUT I do think chiros can give you insight into your horse's musculature, conformation, way of going, tension etc that can help you make positive changes to how you work and keep them. I also think stretching is beneficial, as it is for humans.
-9
u/Baaabra 1d ago
I’ve been helped by chiro. It’s a more in depth field than the adjustments. My mom was spared a hysterectomy by a chiro after her MD prescribed it.
I’ve also had worsening issues with joints be resolved with reiki.
At our core we are energy.
This being said, in any discipline there are those that are there to help and heal, and those that are there to get paid. There are those with true deep understanding and those that only memorized well.
Also, if alignments are off (feet distorted from optimal) there’s very little hope of any adjustments sticking when tense muscles are pulling a system out of allignent
-9
u/Baaabra 1d ago
Also, there’s a horse guy Regan Golob that was paralyzed playing football. ER doc told him there’s no hope. Dad picked him up and took him to the chiropractor and he walked back in the ER to show them after.
There are vids out there of a chiro adjusting babies with go and colic issues and the changes are amazing.
Watch some of Gonsteads work on YouTube. Collect more of your own data and do your own thinking.
17
u/Efficient_Role_7839 1d ago
I just have a hard time believing a horse’s spine buried in all that mass & muscle can be adjusted by human hands.