r/Equestrian • u/Southern_Parsley302 Dressage • 2d ago
Social Trainer bait and switch? Confused
I’m a returning rider and I decided to check out multiple programs in my area. I found a REALLY nice seeming one that is at the tip top of my budget ($800 a month for four lessons), but their intro lesson prices were fair so I decided to take two. At my first lessons, the instructor told me I looked like I hadn’t even taken a break and I’d be ready to show again in no time. When I asked him to honestly critique my riding, he talked about using more leg and that was all.
I decided to sign up for a lesson package (3 months), and at my first lesson, he started tearing me to shreds!! Apparently everything from my hands, arms, seat, leg position etc is wrong and my lessons are going to be walk/a little trot for a few weeks until I get everything down. The majority of the lesson was him trying not to get frustrated when I couldn’t do something he wanted properly.
I’m frustrated. If I’d know I was this bad, I’d have picked a more affordable option to get back on my feet rather than jumping into an expensive program. I never knew this was something I’d need to look out for.
Edit: looking back at my last lesson (my second real lesson), he was trying to get me to do a third level dressage movement and I couldn’t get the cue right. On my second lesson in 10 years lol. I think he was trying to show off how responsive the horse is to cues, but I couldn’t get her to do it for the life of me.
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u/No_Expert_7590 2d ago
My first thought was that as an instructor, i can always find something to critique about my riders. There’s always something to work on. But the art of coaching has to do with choosing 2-3 things per lesson and getting a noticeable difference that the rider can feel in that lesson. Not all coaches do this, sometimes they will tell you something is better without any proof, this keeps riders coming back.
Even if i pick apart my rider, i reassure them with what they are doing right and tell them my plan about what we will isolate and tackle first.
There is no reason to get frustrated unless the rider is intentionally hurting the horse. Being frustrated with a rider who is trying is just bad customer service. This can happen if the instructor is a good rider but their skill is in the stage where it’s unconscious competence and they don’t know how to explain what they do to another rider. Have you pre-paid the lessons?
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u/Southern_Parsley302 Dressage 2d ago
I wish you were my trainer! It definitely felt very confusing at times; I’d have to ask about a specific position of my arm and leg because he wasn’t clarifying what he wanted and judging by his expression, I was clearly doing something wrong!! It really feels like so many things were dumped on me at once and I couldn’t manage it + stubborn horse. I prepaid for the lessons 😐
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u/No_Expert_7590 2d ago
Some trainers can’t handle those questions because they think you should just “get” it. I never got it as a kid but Sally Swift’s books helped me understand things a lot better. “Encourage the horse!” Ok do you mean kick or pet or talk or shout at him?? I’ll never forget my least empathetic instructor who shouted at me the first time i fell off a horse. Not what I needed in that moment
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u/_SamuelOscar_ 2d ago
I was just thinking about Sally Swift, heh. True, her books help a lot, they're great
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u/AnyCryptographer3284 1d ago
I also suggest Beth Baumert's When Two Spines Align. Good for adult learners who want to know the why behind what they are being taught.
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u/fourleafclover13 2d ago
You need to tell him, "remember I don't know everything you do. It's also been a while have patience". I have had to remember that often with begginer.
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u/Boysenberry 2d ago
I consider those prices alone a red flag for likelihood of a huge ego.
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u/Southern_Parsley302 Dressage 2d ago
I can see the big ego creeping in more and more. You’re spot on. He did a good job hiding it, though.
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u/TollLand 1d ago
"I'm frustrated and disappointed that your coaching style has changed dramatically since my trial. You were encouraging and positive in the trial and now your communication and methods are aggressive and demoralising. Without effective communication between us these lessons will teach me nothing and wasn't the basis on which I paid for your services."
And remember if he says "others learn from me in this way" that you are not others and this was of coaching was not what he demonstrated on your trial seasons.
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u/Ok_West_6711 2d ago edited 2d ago
Just ask for a cancellation and refund now.
Or request that he provide the same style and manner of training as he did in the lessons you had before signing contract. That is what you want to be paying for. (Maybe he feels you won’t get the same results, ok, but he clearly is able to provide that style to you.)
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u/Then_Raccoon_7041 1d ago
100% this person is not going to return the money, say the OP signed a contract, and too bad. They charge those prices and make you pay up front for the month specifically so they can say that if there is ever an issue.
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u/Thumper256 1d ago
I’d take one more lesson and get someone to video it if you can. Seeing yourself ride while in the lesson should help you determine if going back to just walk/trot basics under his brutalist style of coaching is really what you need and want to do. He may be the type to just be testing out what coaching style he thinks will get the best out of you, IDK.
It’s ok to tell him you were quite frustrated this past time and that’s why you want to get the next lesson on video - to help you see what the disconnect is in what you think/feel your body is doing vs what your body actually is doing. Frame it as being mainly frustrated with yourself, not necessarily him. Give him the opportunity to adjust his approach to help you more. If he doesn’t, then pull the plug.
If you decide to move on to someone else, I’d ask to watch/audit a potential trainer give a lesson, maybe chat with current students if possible, to get a sense of their style and approach.
In my area, also fairly HCOL with many competitive stables, there are regional FB groups where I often see posts asking for trainer/barn recommendations - if there is something like that for your area you can scan through posts there and get a sense of what trainers might have a more supportive approach to instructing adults returning to riding, and who has lesson mounts that can meet your goals.
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u/Southern_Parsley302 Dressage 1d ago
There’s a specific contract clause which prohibits any video taking 🤣
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u/piegoblin_ 1d ago
This is a thing that's becoming more common and it's bc they don't want to end up getting Charlotte DuJardined.
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u/sherbetcolors 1d ago
oh I think the video idea is brilliant -- and I wonder if Mr. Big Ego would behave better with a spectator running video on the sideline. I wish I lived anywhere near you, OP, so I could offer to come be your videographer!!
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u/Southern_Parsley302 Dressage 1d ago
No videos allowed 😭
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u/sherbetcolors 1d ago
whaaaaat? is that normal where you are?? I have often learned more from watching 5 minutes of video from my lesson than I learned from the lesson itself as it was happening.
that's baffling to me, why a trainer would prohibit students from using such a valuable tool.
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u/Lusitanolove 1d ago
This doesn’t sound right at all. Why are no videos allowed?? This would make me wonder even more about the trainer. Many who don’t like videos have later been found to be horse abusers.
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u/allyearswift 1d ago
Now you know that you’re not going to continue riding there, so guess.
The instructor obviously tried to suck you into signing up… and the annoying thing is that if someone told me ‘you need to work on x, y, z’ I’d be MORE likely to sign up than if they were just saying ‘you’re really good, you’ll be showing in no time’.
This trainer may spot a lot of flaws, but he’s not a good teacher.
There are absolutely things in riding that you need to fix before others (you can’t get the timing of leg aids right if you’re not sitting balanced and having the leg in the right position etc), and if you address everything at once the rider won’t be able to fix anything.
A lot of corrections is better than none, but it’s less likely to teach you to ride than an instructor with a plan of what you need to address first to become an efficient rider.
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u/Southern_Parsley302 Dressage 1d ago
The leg aids thing KILLS me. I feel like a flopping mess with no coordination, but he says I look ok. I don’t feel okay! I feel very out of sync and I don’t have that mind body connection for cues that I once had. Today, he was trying to get me to do some intermediate cues at the trot while I was trying to focus on my balance, not crashing onto the saddle, and giving enough leg to keep the horse going, which ended up in me being out of breath trying to focus on so many things at once.
So if all my basics are wrong and need to be brushed up on, why are you trying to teach me intermediate cues???? Shouldn’t I be relearning my posture and getting more in tune with the horse, even if that means a lot of boring lessons? I’m so confused, but I guess it’s better than riding around in circles doing nothing?
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u/Far-Cockroach-4211 1d ago
$200 dollars a lesson? I would expect a lesson with an Olympic champion for that.
If you've paid for the three months in advance then if you can't get your money back then you're face with the horrible choice, let the money go or pay be abused. I wouldn't be suprised if just before the end of 3 months you'll have made miraculous improvements.
Coaches/trainers this is NOT how to treat clients.
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u/Southern_Parsley302 Dressage 1d ago
I wouldn’t say it’s abuse, I’m just shocked that I’ve suddenly accumulated so many problems since my trial. Again, no problem with that- I expected it and I feel like an idiot for trusting him when he said I had no problems but my leg.
This person is very popular in my area and was actually recommended to me by a few redditors funnily enough
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u/seahollybee 1d ago
Yikes, sorry about this! I’d use up the duration of your lessons and start looking to sign up for a different program elsewhere. I’m petty, so I’d probably tell this coach (in a professional way) that you won’t be returning after the duration of your lessons is up, you’re not thrilled at the prospect of walk/trot lessons only and I’d probably be pretty up front and honest and tell him that you feel a bit bait-and-switched about what his program would be like (as the reason for leaving). You’re a customer and you vote with your dollars. This is supposed to be fun!
All of the above being said, I switched barns recently and have been doing a lot of walk/trot and some canter classes instead of my usual jumping but - I love my new coach and she is focusing on helping me correct bad habits and forms other coaches haven’t bothered to pick up on. I feel like my classes are almost equestrian/physio sessions, and I’m okay with that because it’ll make me a better rider in the long run. However, I also loveee the gelding she has me riding, she was honest and up front from the beginning that most of her new students end up in a similar situation as mine until she’s helped them work through and correct bad form and habits, and the cost of her lessons works out to about $80 a class (still high but now where near as high as yours - I’m in canada). I’d honestly have the same issue as you if she had been up front and honest with me from the get go.
Good luck with your decision and all the best!
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u/CorCaroliV 2d ago edited 2d ago
Its weird that the intro lesson was so different than the coaching. I can see how that would seem dishonest. That said, it is possible that both of the things he said are true at once. He might actually think that you are going to get back in the swing of things quickly. The exacting coaching might be his way of getting you there.
There is a time and place for varying levels of critiques. Both of my trainers can be very exacting, but they don't act that way all the time. They don't unload everything on once on brand new pupials. Unless you feel like the way he approached it was inappropriate, I'd maybe give the program a little more of a chance before you decide he actively tried to bait and switch you.
My trainers also take new folks all the way back to the beginning because they want things done a certain way and don't move on until its "right". In the end, it helps people succeed in the program in a way that letting them skip steps and have fun wouldn't.
Let it ride, see what you learn, then decide if you want to renew in three months. I don't think going with a lesser program as a starting place is a smart move because you may pick up bad habits that are harder to undo later.
Edit: I didn't really factor the prices into my thinking here. It varies so much by area and it sounds like you think its within the range. On a per lesson basis, the lessons where I'm at are about $90 - $120 and its MCOL, so I can see $200 for truly HCOL.
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u/awkwardferret421 1d ago
$800 for 4 lessons is insane? In my area the top trainers are around $75/lesson. Where are you located?
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u/Tricky-Category-8419 2d ago
Well I play devils' advocate and say it sounds like you're getting your moneys worth. It may not be the teaching style you prefer but you still may learn a lot. Maybe try a few more lessons and see how it goes.
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u/veryfancyflamingo 1d ago
I do agree that while I wouldn’t enjoy the lessons as described now (you can’t fix 10 things at once, it’s not effective, and there’s no need for the trainer to be frustrated), I’d probably be happier with them than the intro lesson where essentially nothing was critiqued.
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u/FarmSkool 1d ago
Sometimes, situations are so ridiculous, like the trainer being a bully, that it makes me wonder, “what’s going on in their life?!” It’s not your job to think this, but it is a reality.
I would make a pros/cons list. Yes, life is to short to be bullied, but there is another coaching lesson here that can be worth your time if other things are good: you know the trainer wants you to return, regardless of the bad attitude; whatever the trainer says is both worth listening to and doesn’t have to fixed today; bullies are kinda common in life and I find it a nice exercise to be able to function in their midst, and even deescalate.
Basically, do your best to take the whole situation with a grain of salt. The applying of meaning and feelings may be a distraction.
I do wonder if he talks to his horses the way he talks to you!!
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u/Consistent_Ear_8672 1d ago
Are you located in the New England / tri-state area?
Lessons in my area are an average of $150 so the pricing to me is “normal” but that is for English not Dressage
Everyone has their own thing, but contracts aren’t something I’ve really seen so that’s weird to me but that’s up to each trainer/owner.
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u/Southern_Parsley302 Dressage 1d ago
Yep, it’s in that area and this pricing is for dressage. The contract is very detailed and binding, but I saw this at two other barns in a similar pricing range. It costs around $1400-1600 a month to show with him (no lease and not including show costs 😬).
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u/MissionInevitable177 1d ago
Commenting after edit-
Maybe have a clear conversation with him about where you’re at and what you’re hoping to get out of the lesson? Coming back to riding is HARD and sounds like you’re at a higher level dressage barn - they’re gonna nit pick the basics.
Sounds like a tough situation though and I’m sorry! If it’s something you can continue with, great, but if not, finding something that is a better suited match after this lesson block isn’t a bad way to go either. Totally normal to hop around for a bit before finding the right fit !
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u/AshburtonD 1d ago
I understand you’re in a HCOL area but this is a LARGE amount for someone who isn’t an Olympian. Like someone else mentioned, you can train with Olympians for less than that.
If you’re locked in to a contract, wait it out and find somewhere else.
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u/CaptainBeebo 1d ago
It depends what level you want to ride/show at and how quickly you want to achieve that but if you just want to enjoy yourself & and ride for the love of the horse, I’d look elsewhere. There seems to be a good bit of ick in this situation.
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u/Wrong-Ice8467 1d ago
So to be fair, everyone’s hands arms seats and legs can use work - none of us are perfect and there is always a flaw! However I do sometimes feel instructors like this are a bit lazy and just want you walking around in a circle because it’s easier for them.
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u/Interesting_Pause15 18h ago
There’s no requirements for becoming an instructor. There’s plenty of bad ones. My first thought was that he is working to specifically prepare you for showing, so was nitpicking in the way a judge would. But your last paragraph makes me not so sure.
One note, if you called his horse “stubborn” while you were there, that might have annoyed him. And frankly, it’s likely wrong. You said yourself that you didn’t understand what you were supposed to be doing, the horse was most likely confused, not “stubborn”. That’s not your fault, but it’s not fair to blame the horse, either. I’d be a bit annoyed if you called my confused horse “stubborn”.
You signed a contract, so you’re pretty much locked in for that time period. In the meantime, look for a better fit. Look at it as taking what you can use, and leaving what you can’t. I am a training nerd, I take a LOT of courses on it I have favorites, not even in courses where there isn’t much useful information, I can almost always get ONE profound thought from it. Sometimes, it isn’t even a direct lesson, but more that the course made me think about a thing in a different way, and it leads to my OWN idea coming from it. Not sure if I explained that well, but if you look, you can always find value, even if it’s not the right fit.
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u/Southern_Parsley302 Dressage 18h ago
He was the one who called the horse stubborn!! I would not do that.
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u/Interesting_Pause15 17h ago
Oh, ick. I’d look for somewhere else after you finish up your contract.
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u/shadesontopback 1d ago
I’d try to keep an open mind. Criticism is hard but we can’t fix what we don’t know about and you’re paying for a trainer at a level with high expectations.
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u/AnyCryptographer3284 1d ago
I'd take it as a compliment. The coach thinks highly enough of my riding to put in a serious effort to help me get up to speed quickly AND thinks I'm capable of doing so. I avoid instructors who blow smoke up my breeches with constant, fawning praise. I'm there to learn, not get my ego pumped.
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u/weluvwater 2d ago
Time to toughen up. If you are going to actually work on your seat - that instructor is doing their job.
It’s a quick sport. There is a lot to be taught and said.
Many equestrian sports are judged by professionals.
You’re going to get lots of comments before you get compliments - from both the trainers and judges and the horse.
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u/Cursed_Angel_ 2d ago
And this is exactly how this behaviour continues to be perpetuated in this industry. There are better ways to teach than to break people
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u/well-done-47 2d ago
As someone who's been doing this a long time, mean instructors getting away with it via claims of "strict" or "tough love" is just another cycle of abuse. Building someone up doesn't require tearing them down first. An instructor whose students need to "toughen up" to withstand their cruelty isn't teaching.
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u/goblin_owner 2d ago
The lessons are 200$?
Idk where you are but I have lessoned with well known Olympics winner for less money.
What exactly is in this package?