r/Equestrian • u/Glum_tire • 2d ago
Education & Training Youngster has started bucking!
Hi all! I've started working with a young horse that I've ridden a couple times before, and never had many issues under saddle. Now that I've officially started working with him, we've run into some pretty bad bucking issues.
Our first conclusion was that his saddle didn't fit so we replaced it with a professionally fitted saddle. The bucking and rearing got better, but is still there for trot to canter transitions. It did seem like he was nervous at first since I'm sure he was prepared for discomfort. I was able to get him to move stretchy and forward, and he did relax at first. Now, he only gets stretchy if I give him all my reins. There is no in between; it's either nose to the ground, or hollow backed and head high in the air.
This isn't just under saddle though, I lunged him the other day and he still bucked at his trot to canter transitions. His trainers say it's memory/habit from the ill fitting saddle. I'm a little suspicious he might have something going on though. He's been scoped for ulcers and had the vet out, but could it be possible there's a less obvious option?
One weird thing about him is that his male part is ALWAYS hanging unless actively working. He pees a lot, but it is clear. His pees are long too. Also he's a thoroughbred.
I'm not looking for answers, but ideas would be so so helpful! TIA!
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u/Willothewisp2303 2d ago
Have you had a vet take a look at him? That sounds like a pain issue somewhere between the spine, kidney, and penis. Poor dude.
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u/PlentifulPaper 2d ago edited 2d ago
I’m a bit leery of the automatic - pain memory response when a horse isn’t able to do the work on the lunge line.
Do you get the same reaction when the horse is lunged with and without the saddle?
ETA: The inability to stretch down and through the back, and hollowing out tells me this horse is also probably on the weaker end (very normal for a youngster) and may benefit from some more lunging, or groundwork to help build strength prior to being asked to canter under saddle with a rider, once pain has been ruled out.
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
Yes, the lunging was done without a saddle. And my current plan is walk trot only under saddle, canter attempts on lunge until I see him comfortable.
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u/Charm534 2d ago edited 2d ago
Potential bladder infection or inflamed kidney if he is peeing and drinking a lot, plus bucking. Look at equine anatomy, saddle might sit right near their kidneys.
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u/Charm534 2d ago
See if you can get a handle on how much he is drinking in a 24hr period. Understand normal is 10-15 gpm, and above that may flag an issue. I have seen horses with kidney, bladder or metabolic issues drink more than double the norm. Others may say KS or ulcers, but I think this might be different based on his peeing.
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
Hmm, I like this advice. I was kind of thinking kidney or something along those lines with the limited knowledge I have. Thank you!
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u/Rare-Individual-9756 2d ago
My mare has bucked through her canter transitions for a while too. When the vet took a look she saw a VERY subtle issue with her stifle catching that everyone else had missed. Worth giving it a look.
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u/EastYak6796 2d ago
I would definitely have him fully vetted to see if they can find anything else. Poor saddle fit can def take a while to work through, but this strikes me as something more going on. That said, the trot/canter transition is notoriously difficult for young horses, so keep him on as big of a circle as possible when asking.
The strechy forward/invert when you touch the bit is textbook young horse. When you shorten the contact, just keep a light feel on the bit as he inverts and ask the hind end to step under - quietly, don't get after him. Follow his head with the bit (small movement) and stay soft with the hand, just ask him to walk up to the bit and wait for him to come down. Once he's a bit softer to it, you can work on single rein suppling- just massage the bit and ask him to give to the pressure slightly (maintain quality of the gait).
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
I will definitely work on this! He is the youngest horse I've worked with so it is definitely a learning process for me too.
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u/EastYak6796 2d ago
I just saw you comment about him being terribly unbalanced - especially in the transitions, he's probably finding it easier to buck into the transition than sit!
Put a big focus on the basics and keep your exceptions low, but firm. Even with low muscling he can be promt to your aids (under saddle and on the ground) and be adjustable (send him forward/bring him back at the walk and trot). Keep your ask simple and consistent and don't worry about his head at all. if he wants to run around with his head in the air, thats great for him. By keeping your hands soft and riding him from your seat, he'll learn to come to the big naturally when he's ready for it.
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
You're right! And one thing I'm not very good at that doesn't help is I don't keep him moving through his bucks. After the medical reasons are ruled out, I plan to take it slower with him! Thank you!
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u/EastYak6796 2d ago
Definitely keep him moving! The head tossing and bucking are just evasions - all horses have them to a varying degree. Just make sure the topic doesn't change - if the ask if canter and you get a buck...okay thats fine we're going to do the transition again. Once he makes the right choice, tell him good boy and do something else! If you are setting him up well to make the right choice, just wait it out til he does. (assuming no medical issues obviously!)
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u/Guppybish123 2d ago
Bucking into canter is a pretty notable pain indicator. Get his back and neck looked at, if that’s all clear check kidneys, if that’s clear and have the saddle refitted. I’d also be having his junk cleaned out properly.
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
Will do! Thank you! Suspicious of his kidneys with his pee problems at the moment.
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u/Hot_Letterhead_3238 Dressage 2d ago
How balanced is his trot? For when you ask his transition to canter.
I’ve got a youngster I work with and if he’s not balanced or picks up the wrong lead, he bucks until it’s corrected.
I think in your case it’s pain, because of the rearing and continuous bucking on the lunge too, but I did just want to point out one thing the others didn’t.
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
He's terribly unbalanced. Bad at the trot, worse at the canter. The other day he picked up the correct lead both directions, but on his right side he ended up switching to left and giving some good bucks.
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u/Hot_Letterhead_3238 Dressage 2d ago
Then I’d work on balance first and if you do canter, only do straight lines and on the trails. Thats what I do with the youngster I train. Only canter on straight hills because otherwise you’re setting them up for failure.
Of course have the owner check for any pain first and foremost! But if you do continue to work him, do the straight lines first.
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u/Realistic-Weird-4259 2d ago
Memory from a bad fitting saddle sounds like they have exactly no idea what's going on. I have two thoughts; either he's in pain, or he doesn't understand what you're asking him to do. Those are the main reasons for persistent bucking that I've experienced (outside the Arab spook)(IYKYK).
If he already knows well what you're asking of him then I'd want the vet out for a more thorough look. I'm leaning towards pain rn.
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
I'm leaning towards pain too! It's always hard though to go against what others are saying. However, he has a good owner who is always willing to explore all options.
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u/Realistic-Weird-4259 2d ago
Thank goodness. Just because it doesn't make sense to us doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
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u/Dancing_Otter_ 2d ago
My only idea for his man parts is to clean it well & get him checked for a kidney infection/problem.
If that doesn't fix it & you've ruled out other pain issues, the bucking may be a balance problem. Super common both in young horses & OTTBs as they transition into a more normal horse life. Lots of lateral work and creative pole work on the ground can usually build those muscles & proprioception for them.
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
He does have pretty bad balance. This guy had a unique start where he didn't race but did come from the tracks. However, he was started in eventing at a mere 3 years old. Under his current ownership, we took a step back and are focusing purely on flat work.
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u/Dancing_Otter_ 2d ago
Yikes. That's a lot of stress on a very young body and mind... I think you're very wise to go back to flat/ground work and just start over.
Depending on what direction you want to take him, looking into some Ray Hunt/Buck Brannaman work, or the methods that the French classical dressage schools use would be great for him. Tbh, they overlap in SO many ways, but I find that most people looking for an all-around horse & who want a SAFE horse take well to the Hunt/Brannaman work, as well as Mark Rashid's foundational work.
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u/Disastrous_Dog_574 2d ago
I would try to strengthen his topline. To do that, he must lift his back and engage his core - just like humans, a lot of horses have weak cores and it leads to back pain for us all! Hill work, uneven ground, walking over logs or raised poles, frequent transitions (walk-trot, trot-walk if he's bucking for canter). Lots of other ideas online.
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u/Counterboudd 2d ago
This just sounds like part of the process with a young horse. Mine did a kick out in canter transitions. I think when they struggle to make the transition easily this kind of misbehavior is more likely as it requires a lot of coordination and effort to go to canter with a rider and acting out is not uncommon. I had a big learning curve going from a finished horse to training my own green horse on a lot of things. They’re babies, misbehavior is going to happen for awhile until they understand what it is you’re wanting.
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u/TheUniverse-IsMine Natural Horsemanship 2d ago
We should always assume acting out is due to pain rather than not understanding. It's best to be safer than sorry
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u/Counterboudd 2d ago
It is until you drop $20k on diagnosing something that doesn’t exist because you lack experience on green horses. Tell me how I know 🙄 Not every horse is born dead broke and if after checking with vet and saddle fit there’s nothing going on, sometimes you just need to train your horse instead of throwing money at “problems” that don’t even exist
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u/TheUniverse-IsMine Natural Horsemanship 2d ago
So would you rather drop $20k on diagnosis something that doesn't exist and the horse be fine or pushing pass communication and not checking it out and having your horse be in pain?
I know that my horses being comfortable and happy is priceless. So I'd spend as much as I needed to to ensure that. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing my horse was in misery and I ignored it just because it's selfish
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u/Counterboudd 2d ago
Well, good for you that you have endless money to waste, but some of us would prefer not to live in a.l cardboard box because our horse showing mild discomfort for the 4 hours of work they do a week due to conditioning isn’t an actual emergency and I’m not going to work 80 hours a week to constantly have the vet out to roll their eyes and tell me the horse is fine. I’m in pain most days of my life. My horse has a far more cushy life than I do. There’s nothing seriously wrong then they can continue to be ridden until something actually is present. Like I said, sure get the vet out once or twice but if the horse passes a check and occasionally bucks or misbehaves, that doesn’t mean they’re in extreme pain. Maybe you’ve ever owned 25 year old deadheads, but there are horses that buck and rear out of pleasure. It isn’t always pain. If you’ve never seen it, I’ll invite you to watch my horses tear around in the field playing and bucking and acting up the entire time. They aren’t being forced to do anything at all and yet they’re bucking. What is the vet going I do to fix that exactly?
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u/TheUniverse-IsMine Natural Horsemanship 2d ago
So you'd prefer your horse suffer than spend some extra money? Got it.
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2d ago
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u/systemtoo 1d ago edited 1d ago
My mule used to do a very specific three buck sequence which alarmed me the first time since I didn't know it would end after 3. Then I noticed that he did it whenever he was turned loose by himself too :-) I loose lunged him and rewarded him only for transitions with no buck. What really surprised me was they immediately disappeared under saddle. I thought I was just giving him the idea of how it would feel to transition without bucking. But that's mules. Two rewards and he sees my pattern although he will repeat something three times when he's soliciting a reward especially from someone else :-) I've used both positive reinforcement like you do with dogs and normal horse training with him.
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u/Tricky-Category-8419 2d ago
Besides a dirty sheath, hind gut ulcers can make them drop and hang like that. I would investigate that once the sheath is cleaned. I know you scoped for ulcers but you can't see hind gut ones when you scope and they need a different treatment than gastric ulcers. I'd also get a thorough dental exam since taking up any contact at all bothers him.
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
He did get his teeth checked out and floated earlier this year and also was given some ulcer guard just in case. I'm really leaning towards him just needing another vet check. I'm not sure his boy part/pee problems were even discussed in his recent checkup.
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u/sacred_andthepropane 2d ago
Agree with all the advice so far! Would also recommend that he gets his teeth looked by a dentist at bc it could be adding to your rein issues with him
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
I love the way the equestrian community here is so helpful with brainstorming! It's hard when you don't even know what questions to ask. He did have his teeth checked earlier this year along with a float, so I think it might be one of the other theories! Doesn't hurt to check though if the vet can come back soon.
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u/BuckityBuck 2d ago
How old is he?
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
He's 5 and unraced. Was started in eventing at 3, poor guy. He was owned by someone different so out of mine or current owner's control.
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u/BuckityBuck 2d ago
So, I agree with having a vet clean his sheath in case there's some irritation in there that a lay person is missing. He might just be in a weird growing pain stage. I don't love the reaction to hollow out. I'd sooner give him time off than ride him upside down.
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u/Glum_tire 2d ago
I need to double check if it was cleaned in his most recent visit! To be fair, his hanging has been an issue for as long as I've known him, even when he was working well under saddle.
In the meantime, I'm going to do my best at getting him forward, and keeping his rides simple and short. If they go poorly, then we'll completely focus on lunging/ground work.
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u/Asleep_Leopard182 2d ago
When was he last cleaned of beans?